Dead headofMaelysKinslayer

Wow, I never noticed that v.16

513 posts in this topic

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I never noticed this; Cersei's kids will have gold crowns and shrouds  Joff and Tomm become kings and Arianne tried to crown Myrcella but failed Tommen will likely die before her so she gets to be crowned too.

I think Cersei will crown Myrcella in an effort to stay in power. I wonder how Tommen dies. 

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Apparently, Melisandre wanted Jon to send Mance to rescue his sister in order to gain Jon’s trust, but the especially curious issue here was that Melisandre saw Arya riding north, east of Long Lake, and Mance said he had a ploy in mind, asking for a handful of spearwives to help him, suggesting he knew that he would be going to Winterfell not the eastern shore of Long Lake. Later we found out with the arrival of Alys Karstark at Castle Black, that Mance did not even bother to look for Arya, and Jon began to suspect that Melisandre had some other task for Mance. He ended up thinking about Melisandre’s secret agenda at least twice more.

Actually there could be several options, in which Melisandre didn't tried to trick anyone, and Mance not looking for Arya, where Melisandre pointed him to, had nothing to do with her orders for him.

First - Mance did went to look for a girl on a dying horse. But their paths didn't cross, and when Mance was going further and further, but still didn't met anyone, he decided to go all the way to Winterfell, in case if Arya's escape didn't happened yet. But this option doesn't explain, what he was plotting, when he was sneaking all over Winterfell. Obviously he had some other agenda there, aside from kidnapping Arya.

Second - Mance used opportunity to go on 'save Arya mission', to go and infiltrate Winterfell. He wasn't interested in saving Arya. His real target is something entirely else. But that something was/is in Winterfell. Thus he lied to both, Melisandre and Jon, and agreed to go and look for Arya, while actually he went straight to Winterfell, without looking for anyone, and that's how him and Alys missed each other. This option looks more likely.

So if Mance is really looking for something in Winterfell, then Melisandre knows nothing about it. She didn't thought that Winterfell is important, or there may be something in there. Otherwise she would have adviced Stannis against offering Winterfell to Jon. Thus that something, for what Mance is looking, is North-related, something old, and probably related to The Wall. Mance knew about Horn of Joramun, and he nearly found it. So maybe he knows even more information about Wall-related artifacts. If there was an artifact, able to break The Wall, then maybe there was some artifact, that was a tool, with which The Wall was build. And where else, if not at Winterfell, could be that tool. Both The Wall and Winterfell were build by Bran the Builder first Lord Stark. Could be that source of Mance's information is Bael the Bard. He lived for a year, in crypts under Winterfell. So probably he went thru all those tunnels, and found what was in the heart of Winterfell, some magic artifact. And after he returned beyond The Wall, he made songs about his experiences and discoveries at Winterfell. So that information is still known to wildlings, thru those songs.

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53 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Cersei will crown Myrcella in an effort to stay in power. I wonder how Tommen dies. 

During previous outbreak of Faith Militant, that was also caused by incest in rulling family, Raymont Baratheon was killed by Poor Fellows. They scaled the walls of Targaryen mansion on Visenya's Hill, to kill Aegon and Rhaena (children of Aenys I), whose incestuous marriage caused that uprising. Raymont was member of Kingsguards, and was killed, when he was protecting royal family.

Currently Poor Fellows are personal guards of Lancel Lannister, Lord of Darry (not too far from King's Landing). Kevan was Lancel's father. So maybe when Kevan's death became known to his son, he will blame Cersei in what happened. Then he will go to King's Landing, but Cersei will refuse to see him, or let him see the King, to demand justice for death of his father. Cersei will lock herself and Tommen in Red Keep. And thus Lancel will send his Poor Fellows to scale the walls of Red Keep, to get to Cersei. And in the process of that break in, Tommen will be accidentally killed. Or maybe Varys will somehow kill Tommen, but the blame for it will be casted on Poor Fellows.

GRRM does have a tendency for repeating events. Thus why not to kill another Baratheon by hands of Poor Fellows, like it already happened before in 7K's history.

And then Cersei will crown Myrcella. Or not.

Edited by Megorova

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41 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thus that something, for what Mance is looking, is North-related, something old, and probably related to The Wall. Mance knew about Horn of Joramun, and he nearly found it. So maybe he knows even more information about Wall-related artifacts. If there was an artifact, able to break The Wall, then maybe there was some artifact, that was a tool, with which The Wall was build. And where else, if not at Winterfell, could be that tool. Both The Wall and Winterfell were build by Bran the Builder first Lord Stark. Could be that source of Mance's information is Bael the Bard. He lived for a year, in crypts under Winterfell. So probably he went thru all those tunnels, and found what was in the heart of Winterfell, some magic artifact. And after he returned beyond The Wall, he made songs about his experiences and discoveries at Winterfell. So that information is still known to wildlings, thru those songs.

But Mance has already been to Winterfell, during Robert’s visit at the series beginning, why didn’t he look then?

Also, it’s easy to forget that Mance saw Arya, so he would know the fake is a fake on sight, and maybe even that it is Jayne Poole. This could explain why he didn’t attempt a rescue.

However, I do think it is likely he is there as much to be Mel/Stannis’s man inside Winterfell as anything else. If he wrote the Pink Letter, it could be that he is trying to play Jon.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Megorova said:

During previous outbreak of Faith Militant, that was also caused by incest in rulling family, Raymont Baratheon was killed by Poor Fellows. They scaled the walls of Targaryen mansion on Visenya's Hill, to kill Aegon and Rhaena (children of Aenys I), whose incestuous marriage caused that uprising. Raymont was member of Kingsguards, and was killed, when he was protecting royal family.

Currently Poor Fellows are personal guards of Lancel Lannister, Lord of Darry (not too far from King's Landing). Kevan was Lancel's father. So maybe when Kevan's death became known to his son, he will blame Cersei in what happened. Then he will go to King's Landing, but Cersei will refuse to see him, or let him see the King, to demand justice for death of his father. Cersei will lock herself and Tommen in Red Keep. And thus Lancel will send his Poor Fellows to scale the walls of Red Keep, to get to Cersei. And in the process of that break in, Tommen will be accidentally killed. Or maybe Varys will somehow kill Tommen, but the blame for it will be casted on Poor Fellows.

GRRM does have a tendency for repeating events. Thus why not to kill another Baratheon by hands of Poor Fellows, like it already happened before in 7K's history.

And then Cersei will crown Myrcella. Or not.

A couple of things incorrect here. The Poor Fellows scaled the walls not specifically to kill Aegon and Rhaena. If i recall correctly, the texts mention only Aenys and "the royal family". Aegon and Rhaena might not even have been at KL at the time. They certainty were not with their family, who fled to Dragonstone as a result of the attack, when Aenys finally died on Dragonstone. 

Secondly, the current Poor Fellows are not Lancel's personal guards, nor is he still the Lord of Darry.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But Mance has already been to Winterfell, during Robert’s visit at the series beginning, why didn’t he look then?

Maybe because then, there was too many people there, and thus he had to be extra careful. And his time there was limited. Bard can visit certain castle for a few days, if there's a feast there, or some sort of celebration, but to linger for too long, may cause people to suspect him.

Or maybe he went into those crypts, but wasn't able to find whatever he was looking for.

Maybe in the beginning he tried to find in Winterfell some artifact, that created spells for The Wall. Maybe he planned to use it, to create with it a barrier against the Others. But when he failed to find that building artifact, and thus was unable to make Wall for wildlings, to protect his people, he resigned to look for a breaking artifact, and to use it to destroy The Wall, if Crows won't let them thru.

Also why haven't he searched for Joramun's Horn before? The legend about it, was known for thousands years. But until recently, no one tried to look for it. Why is that?

Maybe at that time Mance still didn't knew, not about any of those artifacts. Not about Joramun's Horn, and not about artifact, with which Bran the Builder has build The Wall.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, it’s easy to forget that Mance saw Arya, so he would know the fake is a fake on sight, and maybe even that it is Jayne Poole. This could explain why he didn’t attempt a rescue.

If he wasn't intending to resque the girl, whoever she may be, then he wouldn't have let his spearwives to save her. But they went there, and tried to get her out. And as result of it, all six of them got killed, and Mance was captured. Thus to get that girl out from Winterfell, was one of his objectives, even though probably not the main.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

However, I do think it is likely he is there as much to be Mel/Stannis’s man inside Winterfell as anything else. If he wrote the Pink Letter, it could be that he is trying to play Jon.

It's very unlikely, that the Pink Letter is a fake, and wasn't actually written by Ramsay.

Though if that is so, and the letter was actually written by Mance, in order to lure Jon out of Night's Watch, make him break the oath, and march with wildlings towards Winterfell, then it will be an amazing plot twist :thumbsup:

Some parts of this letter do look suspicious.

Quote

Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. “You were right to come at once,” Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.
Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.
I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.
I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess.
I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

 

It was signed,

Ramsay Bolton,
Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.
  • The way was phrased intended recipient of that letter - Bastard, instead of one of Jon's titles;
  • numerous use of word bastard in the letter;
  • goading with "come see them" and "come and get him";
  • accusation to Jon - you lied (if the letter is indeed from Mance, then the lie, he's writting about, is not that Mance wasn't burned by Stannis, it's actually about Jon's other lies - about him pretending to be an oathbreaker, about him getting thru his lies into Mance's close circle, about him lying to Ygritte that he wants to be one of them, etc.;
  • mentioning Val and the baby (because Mance does know, that Jon cares about both of them, so he wrote about them, to hit Jon where it will hurt);
  • and the very last provocation - naming Ramsay the Trueborn Lord of Winterfell (because if Jon did said to Mance anything truthful, then it was about his pain, caused by being a bastard, and not being accepted as an equal of his siblings. To be a trueborn, instead of a bastard, was his greatest desire, and caused him the most pain in his life).

So if the letter was indeed written by Mance, then it's a pure provocation, to make Jon leave the Watch. And it's obvious, that he will ask for help from wildings, thus afterwards Jon will be indebted to them, and to Mance. And probably Mance wanted on a personal level, to make Jon to become an oathbreaker, to admit, that he isn't any better than Mance himself. Probably Mance thought (and probably he was right), that Jon despises him for being an oathbreaker, for leaving the Watch, and getting himself a wife and a kid, and even a crown. So Mance wanted to push Jon into admitting, that he isn't any better, that he too may break his oath, under certain circumstances. That he isn't as infallible, as he thinks about himself.

Probably if Jon will break an oath, leave Night's Watch, arrive to Winterfell with an army of wildlings, and will find out, that Stannis is alive, and the letter was a lie, created by Mance to lure him, then he will be outraged.

Though if the letter is a lie, then it doesn't explain, why there's no any news from Stannis, or why Melisandre doesn't see him in her flames (which could be a sign, that he is already dead).

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

A couple of things incorrect here. The Poor Fellows scaled the walls not specifically to kill Aegon and Rhaena. If i recall correctly, the texts mention only Aenys and "the royal family". Aegon and Rhaena might not even have been at KL at the time. They certainty were not with their family, who fled to Dragonstone as a result of the attack, when Aenys finally died on Dragonstone.

Poor Fellows also tried to assassinate the Targaryens at their manse in Visenya's Hill,[3] but were stopped by Ser Raymont Baratheon of the Kingsguard.[5][6] They also surrounded Crakehall while Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena took refuge there.[3]

 

You're right. They tried to kill Targaryens, that were in a mansion at Visenya's Hill. But then they also specifically targeted Aegon and Rhaena, when they were at Crakehall in Westerlands.

Thus they killed Baratheon at a place, that later became King's Landing, and probably they also fought with Lannisters, when they were in Westerlands. So even during previous uprising of Faith Militant, both Baratheons and Lannisters were harmed by them.

Quote

Secondly, the current Poor Fellows are not Lancel's personal guards, nor is he still the Lord of Darry.

Not anymore. But when he still was, in AFFC, Jaime IV, they were guarding him at Darry's castle. And based on what Jaime saw there, it was obvious where that was going. Lancel was becoming more and more religious, and eventually he joined Warrior's Sons. He was amongst those, that escorted Cersei, during her walk of atonement.

During previous uprising of FM, all Warrior's Sons, that were stationed at King's Landing, were killed by Maegor during the burning of the Sept of Remembrance, burned by dragonfire during their morning prayer. Their commander was Damon Morrigen. Morrigen in Welsh means "they die".

So maybe the same thing will happen again with Warrior's Sons - they will be burned in a Sept.

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5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You are probably correct, but is it possible that Myrcella was 'crowned' via the Arianne plot? Symbolically, this would fulfill the crowning part of the prophecy. 

I struggle with this because I don't envision a way Myrcella gets crowned even if Tommen dies. Would Dorne crown her instead of siding with fAegon or Dany? 

Golden crowns might merely refer to their hair and princely births. Remember the context of the prophecy. Cersei was asking if she would wed Prince Rhaegar, but the old witch foresaw Robert, and the proof of her future incest with Jaime, the golden crowns of her kids. 

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:Snip

Mance is definitely one candidate but demanding Jon not only to bring Val and Aemon but also Selyse and Shireen? I doubt Stannis would be overjoyed if it is done without his knowledge. 

Another point against Mance is; Why is it Ramsay and not Roose who sends the letter? Latter is the higher authority. 

Point above is actually against both Mance and Ramsay as the sender.

Stannis is the most likely candidate for the letter; Winning against Ramsay provides him with Dreadfort ink and also the seal, not that Jon noticed any. He has Theon and Jeyne so knows about Mance's doings, knows more if he captured Ramsay.

Quote

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giantof House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.

As seen, Ramsay's writing is huge and spiky and he also calls himself Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Bolton the trueborn.

To me the letter is screaming Stannis I can hear intensifying teeth grinding. Constant use of Bastard and usage of Trueborn? Many times we see him using the word bastard with Jon. Who else is giving so much importance to using correct words and titles? Remember his letter about Cersei's incest.

"My beloved brother? correct that to brother. Jaime the Kingslayer? The man is a knight! Give him his title."

I can imagine the letter being written; "Add another bastard here" "The sword is important, mention it is fancy magic"

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6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mance is definitely one candidate but demanding Jon not only to bring Val and Aemon but also Selyse and Shireen?

Yes. Because if the letter was written by Mance, then he tried different angles to get under Jon's skin. 1. Calling him bastard, 2. calling him a liar and a coward (come and see, if you're not a coward; come and get him, if you're not afraid), 3. threatening Val and the baby, about whom Jon cares, 4. threatening Selyse and Shireen, that are Jon's guests. Thus he feels responsible for their safety. Even though he didn't invited them to come over to Castle Black, but they are already there. And if their husband/father is dead, then Jon has to take care of them. Because they are under protection of Night's Watch, and he is Lord Commander, thus they are his obligation now.

Mance just tried the whole arsenal of jabs to provoke Jon, hoping that at least one of them will be successfull.

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I doubt Stannis would be overjoyed if it is done without his knowledge. 

If the letter wasn't written by Ramsay, and it's a fake in any sense, then Stannis knows nothing about it. It's not his method.

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Another point against Mance is; Why is it Ramsay and not Roose who sends the letter? Latter is the higher authority. 

Why would Roose write to Jon? All that is between Ramsay and Jon. Roose doesn't care about Arya, or Reek. He doesn't care that Jon Snow is Lord Commander of Night's Watch. While to Ramsay it could be sort of like a personal challenge. Two bastards, that against all odds, managed to reach high standing in society. So Ramsay feels sort of competitive towards Jon. So he is interested in fighting him. And Roose has nothing to do with any of that. So who has highter authority, doesn't matter in this case, because it's personal. Either between Ramsay and Jon, or Mance and Jon.

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis is the most likely candidate for the letter

It's not Stannis' method. Stannis is straightforward. He tried to win Jon over, by offering him Winterfell. His methods are primitive, and in-your-face kind of thing.

In his letter to Cersei, he didn't wrote any lies. Didn't he?

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He has Theon and Jeyne so knows about Mance's doings, knows more if he captured Ramsay.

Did Theon knew, that that guy was actually Mance Rayder? I don't remember, but I think that he didn't. Thus from Theon Stannis also wouldn't have heard, that it was Mance's doing - fArya's kidnapping. I don't remember Theon in his TWOW chapter, telling to Stannis about Mance. He told only that him and the girl escaped, by jumping from the wall, into snow, not about whoever was helping them to escape before that.

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As seen, Ramsay's writing is huge and spiky and he also calls himself Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Bolton the trueborn.

Which could be a hint, that the second letter was indeed not from Ramsay, but from Mance.

Also could be that the previous time, Ramsay signed with huge letters, because there was six more other signatures, besides his. So he wanted to show, that he is greater than any of those others, that also signed that letter. While the second letter was signed only by Ramsay's name, and no one else's, thus there was no need for emphacizing his signature.

 

I think that the letter is real, and it was written by Ramsay, and everything in it is truthful. It's not my theory, that the letter may be fake. I just replied to LiveFirstDieLater's post, that it is possible, that the letter is fake, and that this and that in the letter, may be hints to it's fakeness, if it was written by Mance, and not Ramsay.

But even though, some of those things, could be hints to the letter's fakeness, I still favour an idea, that the letter is real. Because I think, that it's time for Stannis to die. All other participants from War of Five Kings are already dead - Renly, Robb, Joffrey, Balon. Stannis is the only one left. And he won't die, if Jon will arrive to his aid, with wildlings army.

And there's just too many people, that want to sit their ass on Iron Throne :rolleyes:. Cersei, even Myrcella, Littlefinger, fAegon, Euron, Stannis, Dany. While the Throne rightfully belongs to Jon, who is the only surviving child of Crown Prince Rhaegar. So it's time to get rid of all those usurpers. Though Dany may stay, if she'll marry with King Jon. ^_^

There's only two books left. And the last one, the ADOS, will be probably entirely centered on the Others, Long Night, and the war against the dead. So all political stuff should be resolved in TWOW. All those from above, except Dany, should be offed, to lessen number of POVs, and to focus on what is really important - the fulfilment of the prophecy, and three heads of the dragon - Dany, Jon, and Rhaego. At least, that's my view, on how books should develop from now on - more magic and less politics.

Edited by Megorova

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4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There's only two books left.

I’ve heard that one before... haha

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Wow, I never noticed that Sam is Brandon Ice Eyes :blink:. History repeats, just with a twist ;).

Essentially, Sam, who gave up the seven in place of the old gods, defeats a slaver (well, a thrall of the slaver) that is the Great Other, all while wearing his ice yes and crashing in to the wight. So, Sam also knows 'winter' because Jon is (will be) the King of Winter. Go figure :dunno:.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV

After their fall, the castle had passed through many other hands. House Flint held it for a century, House Locke for almost two. Slates, Longs, Holts, and Ashwoods had held sway here, charged by Winterfell to keep the river safe. Reavers from the Three Sisters took the castle once, making it their toehold in the north. During the wars between Winterfell and the Vale, it was besieged by Osgood Arryn, the Old Falcon, and burned by his son, the one remembered as the Talon. When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf's Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness.
"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

His fumbling fingers finally found the dagger, but when he slammed it up into the wight's belly the point skidded off the iron links, and the blade went spinning from Sam's hand. Small Paul's fingers tightened inexorably, and began to twist. He's going to rip my head off, Sam thought in despair. His throat felt frozen, his lungs on fire. He punched and pulled at the wight's wrists, to no avail. He kicked Paul between the legs, uselessly. The world shrank to two blue stars, a terrible crushing pain, and a cold so fierce that his tears froze over his eyes. Sam squirmed and pulled, desperate . . . and then he lurched forward.
Small Paul was big and powerful, but Sam still outweighed him, and the wights were clumsy, he had seen that on the Fist. The sudden shift sent Paul staggering back a step, and the living man and the dead one went crashing down together. The impact knocked one hand from Sam's throat, and he was able to suck in a quick breath of air before the icy black fingers returned. The taste of blood filled his mouth. He twisted his neck around, looking for his knife, and saw a dull orange glow. The fire! Only ember and ashes remained, but still . . . he could not breathe, or think . . . Sam wrenched himself sideways, pulling Paul with him . . . his arms flailed against the dirt floor, groping, reaching, scattering the ashes, until at last they found something hot . . . a chunk of charred wood, smouldering red and orange within the black . . . his fingers closed around it, and he smashed it into Paul's mouth, so hard he felt teeth shatter.
Yet even so the wight's grip did not loosen. Sam's last thoughts were for the mother who had loved him and the father he had failed. The longhall was spinning around him when he saw the wisp of smoke rising from between Paul's broken teeth. Then the dead man's face burst into flame, and the hands were gone.
Sam sucked in air, and rolled feebly away. The wight was burning, hoarfrost dripping from his beard as the flesh beneath blackened. Sam heard the raven shriek, but Paul himself made no sound. When his mouth opened, only flames came out. And his eyes . . . It's gone, the blue glow is gone.
 
 

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And to continue on from above about Sam the Slayer- Ice Eyes,  Jon Snow is a parallel to Edrick "Snowbeard" Stark of days past, which is why Edric Dayne and Jon Snow are "milk brothers", it is in that first name, not that Edric Dayne was named after Eddard Stark.

:blink:Wait a second... I just remembered that a few days ago I asked in the small questions thread if Jon still has his beard/facial hair... and it appears he might... so Jon Snow is the *new* Edrick Snowbeard and Sam is his "ice eyes", which also sorta confirms adds to my theory that Sam the Slayer (of Citadel Lies) will communicate with Bran and/or Jon while he is at the Citadel possibly via the purple moss covered weirwood tree outside the window, and also brings to mind that Jon is at times covered in ice armour, which is probably a metaphor of Bran and his ice magics being Jon's guide of sorts.

Or, I need more coffee :dunno:

Edited by The Fattest Leech
clarified a word

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