Wow, I never noticed that v.16

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

In the Prologue of A Game of Thrones we are introduced to the Others. Waymar Royce battles an Other and becomes the first known victim. Kraznys mo Nakloz becomes Drogon's first victim in Daenarys III, A Storm of Swords. George uses the same phrase in both events.

Then the Plaza of Punishment blew apart into blood and chaos. The Good Masters were shrieking, stumbling, shoving one another aside and tripping over the fringes of their tokars in their haste. Drogon flew almost lazily at Kraznys, black wings beating. As he gave the slaver another taste of fire...

The phrase "almost lazily" stood out to me upon a recent read. This is because George uses a very similar phrase when Waymar is killed back in the Prologue.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

This is very interesting because these are the only two instances where George uses either of these phrases in his entire Ice and Fire writings. By now we should realize George uses phrases to direct the reader into a specific direction. I believe he is doing this here. He may want us to relate the two passages. 

There are obvious opposites at work in the two scenes as well. Waymar is killed by the swords of the Others. Kraznys is killed by the sword of Drogon (fire). The moon is present in the night sky during Waymar's death. The sun is flashing during the death of Kraznys. 

Ditto!  Nice connection.

[Corvo the Crow]

Quote

Joss nodded. "If it please His Grace—"

"His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like. Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. "I am Lord Eddard Stark, the King's Hand. Tell me who you are and what you know of these raiders."

A small thing but I've never noticed this. We know that Eddard shares his table with different servants of his castle every day, Robb also copies this on his march south. The stark contrast between Eddard and Robert, or perhaps even North and South.

[Lady Dacey]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A small thing but I've never noticed this. We know that Eddard shares his table with different servants of his castle every day, Robb also copies this on his march south. The stark contrast between Eddard and Robert, or perhaps even North and South.

Also an important piece of information to make it believable in universe that none of the commom people of Kings Landing was ever ever able to look at Gendry and say "wow, son, you look exactly like the king!" 

[ravenous reader]

On 12/26/2017 at 3:49 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes, a Qartheen who eats eyes so he can gain his sight (which he later does) reminds me of Symeon Star-eyes a blind men from age of heroes who replaced his eyes with sapphires who also saw fighthing hellhounds in his visit to Nightfort.

Third-eye allusion, the 'dark side' of 'dark-seeing' involving the sacrifice of eyes (either those of the self or another) in order to gain superior 'sight'.  There may also be a play on words of 'eye' with the pronoun 'I', implying the violent elevation of the singular ego 'I' at the expense of the rights of many other 'I's'.  As examples, consider Varamyr's assault on Thistle, or Bran skinchanging Hodor:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Thistle had returned to him. She had him by the shoulders and was shaking him, shouting in his face. Varamyr could smell her breath and feel the warmth of it upon cheeks gone numb with cold. Now, he thought, do it now, or die.

He summoned all the strength still in him, leapt out of his own skin, and forced himself inside her.

Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking. It was such a strange feeling that he almost fell. He could see himself on the cold stone floor, a little broken thing, but he wasn't broken now. He grabbed Hodor's longsword. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Third-eye allusion, the 'dark side' of 'dark-seeing' involving the sacrifice of eyes (either those of the self or another) in order to gain superior 'sight'.  There may also be a play on words of 'eye' with the pronoun 'I', implying the violent elevation of the singular ego 'I' at the expense of the rights of many other 'I's'.  As examples, consider Varamyr's assault on Thistle, or Bran skinchanging Hodor:

 

 

Thanks!

 

While doing a search something caught my eye, I'm probably reading too much into this but here it goes:

Eddard's clothing during one of his hand sessions.

Quote

"His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like. Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. "I am Lord Eddard Stark, the King's Hand. Tell me who you are and what you know of these raiders."

Can't quote these from book now but here are the direwolves of Stark children from Wiki:

Rickon: Shaggydog's fur is all black and his eyes are bright green

Bran: Summer has silvery grey fur and yellow eyes

Arya: Nymeria has dark golden eyes and grey fur

Sansa: Lady has grey fur and yellow eyes. She is the smallest of the litter.

Robb: Grey Wind has smoke grey fur and yellow eyes. He is a lean direwolf.

Jon: Ghost has thick white fur, red eyes, and a bushy tail.At the outset, Ghost is the smallest of his pack, but he eventually grows to be larger than his litter mates. He receives his name from Jon because of his fur color and the fact that he never makes a sound.

 

Quote

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. He dressed in black, as befitted a man of the Night's Watch. Tonight it was rich black velvet, with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped round his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. "A very quiet wolf," he observed.

"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black."

 

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

 

Could the direwolves intentionaly colored in the shades of truth?

On Ghost there's also this,

 

Quote

 

"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.

"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.

 

 

And to wrap up with something actually there and not just a possibility

 

Ghost, the smallest eventually grows bigger than the others so he probably grew up faster too. Who else grows up faster?

 

Quote

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children

He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

 

Ghost growing bigger could also mean that Jon will outdo other Stark children in his achievements.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Bran told Old Nan that he dreamed of a crow, and that the crow told him that he would fly. I wonder what the story was that Old Nan knew about a crow? Perhaps the Crow and the Pitcher, in which we see that thoughtfulness is superior to brute strength? 

[Kandrax]

Spoiler

Lord Vargo killed Lorch, Gregor killed Vargo, Oberyn poisoned Clegane with manticore's poison. Blazon of House Lorch is manticore, and Amory was called the manticore. In some way Tywin's mad dogs killed each others

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

  Hide contents

Lord Vargo killed Lorch, Gregor killed Vargo, Oberyn poisoned Clegane with manticore's poison. Blazon of House Lorch is manticore, and Amory was called the manticore. In some way Tywin's mad dogs killed each others

 

Nice. 

[bemused]

Another hint for those who think the pink/bastard letter was edited and re-copied before it was delivered to Jon ... from ADWD, Theon chapter ...

"I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well.

If Arnolf's message to Roose was wet, the parchment given to Jon certainly should have been and should have been one of the things immediately noticeable about it. Travelling much farther, it should have been pretty sodden, but no-one present comments on it and Jon doesn't even think of it.

I must have read past that tid-bit a gazillion times without noticing, though I subscribe to the editing theory for plenty of other reasons. 

I can't think why GRRM would have Theon take note of it, except for comparison, later. It doesn't make a whit of difference to Theon's storyline, but can be very relevant to Jon's.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, bemused said:

Another hint for those who think the pink/bastard letter was edited and re-copied before it was delivered to Jon ... from ADWD, Theon chapter ...

"I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well.

If Arnolf's message to Roose was wet, the parchment given to Jon certainly should have been and should have been one of the things immediately noticeable about it, but no-one present comments on it and Jon doesn't even think of it.

I must have read past that tid-bit a gazillion times without noticing, though I subscribe to the editing theory for plenty of other reasons. 

I can't think why GRRM would have Theon take note of it except for comparison, later. It doesn't make a whit of difference to Theon's storyline, but can make a great difference to Jon's.

Agreed. And I, too, have read past that bit a gazillion times. It seems there is plenty of reason to question how accurate that darned bastard truly is and it’s intent. 

[divica]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Agreed. And I, too, have read past that bit a gazillion times. It seems there is plenty of reason to question how accurate that darned bastard truly is and it’s intent. 

There is this new vídeo talking about the time lines in the north

 

IF it is acurate it might explain why the letter is dry...

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

There is this new vídeo talking about the time lines in the north

 

IF it is acurate it might explain why the letter is dry...

Thanks. I’ll check it out when I get home. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, divica said:

There is this new vídeo talking about the time lines in the north

 

IF it is acurate it might explain why the letter is dry...

And being a PJ vid I'd say that's a huge "if". 

He makes interesting points - he always does, tbf - but I would take this timeline of his w/ a truckload of salt. Not because of his calculations, but the many assumptions.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And being a PJ vid I'd say that's a huge "if". 

Is it a PJ video? I am driving and couldn’t tell yet. A PJ video does mean a big IF. 

[divica]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thanks. I’ll check it out when I get home. 

Another thing to take into account that I have never seen anyone discuss.

When the PL is sent is it phisically possible for reek and fAria to be at the Wall? 

Even if we assume that ramsay thinks that when they left winterfell they went directly to the Wall and got horses. This would give them something between 7 days (the armies leave winterfell in the same day as fArya and reek and are believed to return after 7 days if I am not mistaken) and whatever days ramsay needs to torture mance and spear wives. So even if we assume there was good weather we are talking about 2 weeks of torture (I think jon needed about 3 weeks to get to the Wall in GoT) in order for it to be possible for them to get there. So either ramsay is completlty insane or he had to wait at least 3 weeks after reek and fArya escape to send the PL.

As we are assuming that ramsay doesn t know that fArya and reek went first to stannis and that there was always good weather in the best case scenario the last jon chapter happens at least 20 days after fArya's escape.

[divica]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Is it a PJ video? I am driving and couldn’t tell yet. A PJ video does mean a big IF. 

 

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And being a PJ vid I'd say that's a huge "if". 

He is basically using the phases of the moon in the povs in the north and time references to make a timeline of the events in the north. Nothing too outrageous....

Along the way it gets too detailed to follow in vídeo format, so I have some doubts if he doesn t make some assumptions or leaps of logic that might not be true.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Is it a PJ video? I am driving and couldn’t tell yet. A PJ video does mean a big IF. 

Yeah. I watched it. or rather, listened to it. It's interesting. But he makes too many assumptions (sounds familiar?) that he can't prove. At the end the bit w/ the white raven made me tune out completely, I have to idea where he took that idea.

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

 

He is basically using the phases of the moon in the povs in the north and time references to make a timeline of the events in the north. Nothing too outrageous....

Along the way it gets too detailed to follow in vídeo format, so I have some doubts if he doesn t make some assumptions or leaps of logic that might not be true.

Yeah, the calculations using the PoVs and moon phases was the interesting part, but even w/ that he made plenty of assumptions. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. I watched it. or rather, listened to it. It's interesting. But he makes too many assumptions (sounds familiar?) that he can't prove. At the end the bit w/ the white raven made me tune out completely, I have to idea where he took that idea.

 

yeah, that was stupid. What I was interested is the timeline he creates because by his accounts the last jon chapter happens much earlier than the battle of ice or slightly earlier. THAT is what I wanted to know if makes sense.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, the calculations using the PoVs and moon phases was the interesting part, but even w/ that he made plenty of assumptions. 

I remember him talking about val not being too late and stannis sepnding 10 days at the north castle (I can t remember the name). But for both scenarios I got the idea it were good assumptions...