Katerine459

[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

83 posts in this topic

On 10/18/2017 at 8:08 AM, YoungGriff89 said:

Maybe this is just me, but I noticed this trend:  in seasons five and six, up until episodes 9 and 10 everybody’s storyline can be summed up in one sentence.  Season five the exceptions were Tyrion and Jon Snow, and kind of Cersei while in season six the exceptions were Dany and Jon.  Think about it, you can skip episodes 1-8 of season five, and all you need to know about every character besides Tyrion, Jon, and Cersei moving into the penultimate and finale, is one sentence.

Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne to rescue Marcella from Oberyn’s daughters and got captured.

Arya arrived in Braavos and is training to be faceless man with Jaqen H’gar.

Sansa returns to Winterfell and is brutalized by Ramsay after marrying him.  

Theon watches Ramsay torture Sansa.

Davos accompanies Stannis away from the wall to march for Winterfell.

Bran is non-existent.

Brienne and Podrick unsuccessfully try to rescue Sansa.

Meereen is turning on Daenerys and a shadow organization killed Ser Barristan.

Season five is where the writing really started to go downhill, but season four is where the limitations of the budget and the difficulty of putting this show out on time became apparent.  As far as which one played a bigger role in the dropping quality of the show overall, the writing.  But on top of that you also have Dan and David’s commitment to spectacle over story.  

Your particulars are not necessarily important, but your conclusion is. :)

I think you can go back to the day that D&D and GRRM cut a deal. The notion of having a real, with fidelity, adaption of the books existed, but never existed. Not to complain about George, or D&D, but, I suspect they figured it would work out in the long run. It is easy to imagine that seven series would be the absolute maximum, since seven years is an enormous demand on both potential actors, as well as the financial futures that HBO might project. [I know eight is the number now, which is way more than three, of Monty Python fame, and way less than eleven of Spinal Tap fame]

Anyway, sadly, the show was mismanaged by D&D. Forgetting about any starry eyed notions that D&D had, and GRRM agreed to. It is obvious that an adaptation would never work. There was way too much material to adapt to fill a seven series show. When they agreed to do a show, there were four books  that would likely take 5+ or so series to represent. How are they going to fit in two more books? Their planning for season 3 (the 5th book was out at that point?) should have locked down the entire series at that point (given GRRM's insights on his plans). It is/was obvious that there was way too much material, and then there was no material. If you very carefully planned things, you could bridge the gap between too much material to adapt and then no material to adapt. I'll guess that at least 30+% of the existing book material, not counting material of the next couple of books must be cut. Fortunately, GRRM, made up tons of filler material to fill his five-year, Meerenese gap.

If planned, I suspect that the Iron Born would be cut even more than they have been (I mean cut to the root where only Theon and Yara are in play). I suspect that the mess in Slavers Bay would be refactored where more attention would be given to Astapor and Yunkei, and less to Meeren (both preserving Dany screen time, while removing Meeren tedium).

I should add that, I am sure that, economically, seven seasons, were the general assumption by GRRM and D&D, which meant they were already faced with significant cuts in GRRM's material, no matter what, but they didn't consider what that meant. As a result, D&D have gone off the rails for lack of planning. GRRM has spent all to many years writing this stuff. Then, D&D take a stab at it - show year five is ok, but a step down from pure GRRM material, show year six is really bad, D&D face the time pressure of producing stuff.. Show year seven is... Well, I've evolved to accept that it is pretty cool to see the actors (emphasis, not the characters) get a chance to be together. :) Meanwhile D&D are desperate to produce something, anything... 

shame... shame... shame...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the problems were to do with timing. 

During its peak years the writers were simply creating screenplays based on an existing book storyline. The job was relatively simple and allowed them to plot out certain elements easily and then take bits and pieces of Martin's work and put it into the right place. This gave them plenty of time to think things through and they also had great source material to work from to add an air of quality to the writing.

Once the material started to run out, or huge changes were necessary (and they were definitely necessary when it comes to the last 2 books) they ran into major issues. They didn't have time to both come up with elegant episode structures and clever dialogue whilst at the same time coming up with whole new storylines and plot arcs out of nowhere. The job suddenly because twice as difficult but with the same limited amount of time to get things done.

I could also add that the extra time needed for CGI and huge set works could concievably mean that writers have even less time to get things written, and might have to submit things early so that there is more time for the effects work. 

This could be why D&D are constantly pushing for more time and less episodes. Unfortunately it hasn't worked for them, this last season was a disaster all round despite them getting what they wanted. Who knows how much time they would actually need to produce something half decent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2017 at 10:45 AM, jcmontea said:

Of course. By any objective measure the show didn’t go wrong. It just continues becoming more and more popular and season 8 will be the a huge international popular culture phenomenon. 

By where did the show go wrong the OP really means why do i like the show less now.

I'm not sure if popularity is an "objective" measure of... an aesthetic or book-reader or general critique about the show (positive or negative). Though it is an objective measure of economic success, assuming popularity = $$.

You may well be right about OP in the end run. But, I'll posit that a long running, narrative, TV show should have start-to-finish consistency. The general look and feel and episode pacing, of immersion in the "world", having consistent "constraints" like character travel time when going to and fro, etc.

I am speaking here of the overall show, and from an analytical viewpoint, not of whether I enjoy it or not, or as a book reader whether I think the adaptation is correct, or whether I think the writers/actors/directors, etc. did a good job.

I think the show fails (by non-economic and non-popularity standards) because of a general inconsistency. The first four seasons are totally consistent. The fifth season varies a bit compared to the prior four season. The sixth and seventh seasons are not recognizable as being part of the same show, from a consistency standpoint.

OP and others mention several particulars that are results of what I call "bad planning", and Eggegg amplifies that D&D didn't have time to both write, from scratch, new material, and provide "elegance" - ie, the consistency they had provided in the prior seasons.

I think the show fails as an adaptation. And that was probably obvious from the beginning of the grrm + d&d relationship, hence my "shame" bit. But, I think with proper planning, the show could have been "consistent" while still being as popular as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

I'm not sure if popularity is an "objective" measure of... an aesthetic or book-reader or general critique about the show (positive or negative). Though it is an objective measure of economic success, assuming popularity = $$.

You may well be right about OP in the end run. But, I'll posit that a long running, narrative, TV show should have start-to-finish consistency. The general look and feel and episode pacing, of immersion in the "world", having consistent "constraints" like character travel time when going to and fro, etc.

I am speaking here of the overall show, and from an analytical viewpoint, not of whether I enjoy it or not, or as a book reader whether I think the adaptation is correct, or whether I think the writers/actors/directors, etc. did a good job.

I think the show fails (by non-economic and non-popularity standards) because of a general inconsistency. The first four seasons are totally consistent. The fifth season varies a bit compared to the prior four season. The sixth and seventh seasons are not recognizable as being part of the same show, from a consistency standpoint.

OP and others mention several particulars that are results of what I call "bad planning", and Eggegg amplifies that D&D didn't have time to both write, from scratch, new material, and provide "elegance" - ie, the consistency they had provided in the prior seasons.

I think the show fails as an adaptation. And that was probably obvious from the beginning of the grrm + d&d relationship, hence my "shame" bit. But, I think with proper planning, the show could have been "consistent" while still being as popular as it is.

I respect your opinion as a reflection of a subjective viewpoint. I personally don’t think art criticism can be anything but subjective though. Since just the very act of chosing the yardsticks by which we are going to measure something is itself a subjective act and its not possible to set up falsifiable statements on anything. Humans decide they like something and then come up with the reasons afterwards. No way to guard against this tendency in art criticism. At the end of the day we are just intectualizing why we liked it or we did not. The only borderline objective measure of a work of art is how many people like it and perhaps more importantly is it a work of art that other artists are inspired by and react to. The great pieces of art are those that literally inspire generations of artists to wrestle with it. With this show, its way to soon to say whether it will inspire generations of people but I would say the odds are extremely low. It is having an impact on television for sure buts its probably nothing more than a fad. So we are left with it being popular and coming up with more elaborate ways to say why we like it or why we don’t. 

Having said that I do agree with you regarding consistency. Seasons 5 and 6 were less consistent with some of the worst episodes of the show and some of the best episodes of the show. But how big was that delta and was that delta wide enough to ruin the show. That is inherently a subjective judgement basically brining us back to do you like the later seasons or did you not. If you didn’t then your opinion is the show is totally inconsitent what a load of trash. If you did like it you say there were some down epsiodes but still good and no where near down enought to ruin the show. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

 

OP and others mention several particulars that are results of what I call "bad planning", and Eggegg amplifies that D&D didn't have time to both write, from scratch, new material, and provide "elegance" - ie, the consistency they had provided in the prior seasons.

I think the show fails as an adaptation. And that was probably obvious from the beginning of the grrm + d&d relationship, hence my "shame" bit. But, I think with proper planning, the show could have been "consistent" while still being as popular as it is.

Bad planning is a huge part of it I think. Which falls on D&Ds shoulders. I don't think when they started to make the show they'd thought 8 seasons ahead, or even imagined they'd get that far before being cancelled. The first 4 seasons are written as if they had all the time in the world and were simply kicking that can down the road in terms of thinking about what happens at the end. 

They were hit by a number of problems admittedly. Martin being notoriously slow in his writing hindered them massively. His own problems ending the show reflects onto them as well. 

I've always thought the only way to do the show well for 8 seasons would have been to do a very loose adaptation of the books, cutting out entire segments of the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I respect your opinion as a reflection of a subjective viewpoint. I personally don’t think art criticism can be anything but subjective though. Since just the very act of chosing the yardsticks by which we are going to measure something is itself a subjective act and its not possible to set up falsifiable statements on anything. Humans decide they like something and then come up with the reasons afterwards. No way to guard against this tendency in art criticism. At the end of the day we are just intectualizing why we liked it or we did not. The only borderline objective measure of a work of art is how many people like it and perhaps more importantly is it a work of art that other artists are inspired by and react to. The great pieces of art are those that literally inspire generations of artists to wrestle with it. With this show, its way to soon to say whether it will inspire generations of people but I would say the odds are extremely low. It is having an impact on television for sure buts its probably nothing more than a fad. So we are left with it being popular and coming up with more elaborate ways to say why we like it or why we don’t. 

Having said that I do agree with you regarding consistency. Seasons 5 and 6 were less consistent with some of the worst episodes of the show and some of the best episodes of the show. But how big was that delta and was that delta wide enough to ruin the show. That is inherently a subjective judgement basically brining us back to do you like the later seasons or did you not. If you didn’t then your opinion is the show is totally inconsitent what a load of trash. If you did like it you say there were some down epsiodes but still good and no where near down enought to ruin the show. 

Subjective... A nice word that I seemed to have forgotten. :)

My thesis has been that that the show has not been properly planned, so that late in the series there are flaws, very significant flaws, that might have been avoided (at least somewhat). Ruin the show... No... But an adaptation was required to adjust to the "new show" which shouldn't have been necessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Bad planning is a huge part of it I think. Which falls on D&Ds shoulders. I don't think when they started to make the show they'd thought 8 seasons ahead, or even imagined they'd get that far before being cancelled. The first 4 seasons are written as if they had all the time in the world and were simply kicking that can down the road in terms of thinking about what happens at the end. 

They were hit by a number of problems admittedly. Martin being notoriously slow in his writing hindered them massively. His own problems ending the show reflects onto them as well. 

I've always thought the only way to do the show well for 8 seasons would have been to do a very loose adaptation of the books, cutting out entire segments of the story.

Nice bit of cross posting here. :)

I especially like your notion that D&D strolled through the first four seasons, and then *horror*, realized there was a problem.

Edit: I think the amount of grrm's material already was too much for a strict adaptation, so his lack of productivity in recent years is not really relevant. So, the notion of a loose adaptation of the books is totally on point. :)

Edited by Wild Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

Nice bit of cross posting here. :)

I especially like your notion that D&D strolled through the first four seasons, and then *horror*, realized there was a problem.

Edit: I think the amount of grrm's material already was too much for a strict adaptation, so his lack of productivity in recent years is not really relevant. So, the notion of a loose adaptation of the books is totally on point. :)

Haha. 

Well yes thats how I always imagined it. They are gonna cross the difficult bridge when they come to it. Again it comes down to time. If you only have less than a year to write a full season whilst at the same time plot out a further 5-6 seasons ahead of it then something is going to suffer. I'm also assuming that they had a method for writing the first few seasons that probably needed to change dramatically after they ran out of material. 

A much looser adaptation, a faster paced adaptation might not have gained the traction or the audience that the existing show did however. Maybe we would have ended up with the monstrosity of season 7 from the start if that was the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Haha. 

Well yes thats how I always imagined it. They are gonna cross the difficult bridge when they come to it. Again it comes down to time. If you only have less than a year to write a full season whilst at the same time plot out a further 5-6 seasons ahead of it then something is going to suffer. I'm also assuming that they had a method for writing the first few seasons that probably needed to change dramatically after they ran out of material. 

A much looser adaptation, a faster paced adaptation might not have gained the traction or the audience that the existing show did however. Maybe we would have ended up with the monstrosity of season 7 from the start if that was the case.

I should say that I enjoyed season seven much more than season six. No doubt, because, I expected dreck, so I was able to accept whatever happened and enjoy all of the reunions. :)

Bullocks, who cares?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys, OP here. :) Sorry I've been away so long. I have read all of the comments, and many of them are fantastic; I just haven't been up to replying until now.

First of all, to the later comments in the thread, I need to clarify one thing: I wrote the post on the assumption that the show strives to be great. Not merely good enough to keep people entertained and keep the producers happy, but great enough to inspire people to obsess about the show even when they're not actively watching it. I always assume that show writers want their show to be great, and don't bother watching shows that don't appear to even have that goal. As Joss Whedon once said, a long time ago (this is from memory, so I might get the words wrong), "I'd rather write a show that 10,000 people need to watch, than a show that 1,000,000 people like to watch."

My comments are comments on why (not necessarily how, but why) the show is failing to be great, not why the show is failing to be good. It's a failure on the part of their entire writing process, not a failure on the part of this or that plotline.

As MrJay pointed out, the show's writers are writing fanfic. I get the sense that he (you) meant that as a slight, but I mean it literally: they're no longer writing an adaptation, because there's no longer anything to adapt; they've been taking the show past what the books have reached. That makes it fanfic. I've written fanfic before (not of ASOIAF, because GRRM doesn't allow that, but of other books and shows), and I've read some fantastic, amazingly-written fanfic. Fanfic can, in fact, be great.

Rule #1 of writing great fanfic: be a fan. In the original sense of the word: fanatic. Know the characters and the world inside and out. When you're blessed with a plethora of well-written characters and an interesting, well-developed world with a rich history and social and economic systems, know them all. Know what motivates the characters, what they would do in any given situation. And then let them dictate their own actions, just like real people do, and let the plot evolve from there.

There is some leeway there. Character's future behavior isn't set in stone, any more than real people's future behavior is. I repeat... any more than real people's future behavior is. There is some leeway. But not much. Do not, under any circumstances, make the characters do something they would not do in that situation, just to further the plot. That immediately diminishes the greatness of the story, in the most fundamental way: it makes the characters inconsistent, which makes it harder to think of them as real, which makes it harder to care.

GRRM does a fantastic job of keeping his characters consistent, while still letting them evolve, and letting them evolve the plot. There's nothing stopping the show's writers from doing the same, even if it's not in quite the same direction. But you have to start with the characters, and the world, not with the plot, and certainly not with a fan wishlist. You have to start with the characters and the world. Otherwise, it will always fall short of greatness.

Edited by Katerine459

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Hi guys, OP here. :) Sorry I've been away so long. I have read all of the comments, and many of them are fantastic; I just haven't been up to replying until now.

First of all, to the later comments in the thread, I need to clarify one thing: I wrote the post on the assumption that the show strives to be great. Not merely good enough to keep people entertained and keep the producers happy, but great enough to inspire people to obsess about the show even when they're not actively watching it. I always assume that show writers want their show to be great, and don't bother watching shows that don't appear to even have that goal. As Joss Whedon once said, a long time ago (this is from memory, so I might get the words wrong), "I'd rather write a show that 10,000 people need to watch, than a show that 1,000,000 people like to watch."

My comments are comments on why (not necessarily how, but why) the show is failing to be great, not why the show is failing to be good. It's a failure on the part of their entire writing process, not a failure on the part of this or that plotline.

As MrJay pointed out, the show's writers are writing fanfic. I get the sense that he (you) meant that as a slight, but I mean it literally: they're no longer writing an adaptation, because there's no longer anything to adapt; they've been taking the show past what the books have reached. That makes it fanfic. I've written fanfic before (not of ASOIAF, because GRRM doesn't allow that, but of other books and shows), and I've read some fantastic, amazingly-written fanfic. Fanfic can, in fact, be great.

Rule #1 of writing great fanfic: be a fan. In the original sense of the word: fanatic. Know the characters and the world inside and out. When you're blessed with a plethora of well-written characters and an interesting, well-developed world with a rich history and social and economic systems, know them all. Know what motivates the characters, what they would do in any given situation. And then let them dictate their own actions, just like real people do, and let the plot evolve from there.

There is some leeway there. Character's future behavior isn't set in stone, any more than real people's future behavior is. I repeat... any more than real people's future behavior is. There is some leeway. But not much. Do not, under any circumstances, make the characters do something they would not do in that situation, just to further the plot. That immediately diminishes the greatness of the story, in the most fundamental way: it makes the characters inconsistent, which makes it harder to think of them as real, which makes it harder to care.

GRRM does a fantastic job of keeping his characters consistent, while still letting them evolve, and letting them evolve the plot. There's nothing stopping the show's writers from doing the same, even if it's not in quite the same direction. But you have to start with the characters, and the world, not with the plot, and certainly not with a fan wishlist. You have to start with the characters and the world. Otherwise, it will always fall short of greatness.

The whole idea that its fan fiction is just not correct. Game of Thrones is a licensed adaptation where the author of the original source material is an executive producer and whose outline the writers of the show have based their story off of. Thus, even though there are no books they are still adapting his ending its just much looser at this point. But even if they were not it would not be fan fiction because its still Game of Thrones its own independent copy righted material done with the authors blessing and who the author makes boat loads of money off of. Fan fiction is a weak sauce insult that is not even a proper use of the term. 

If the characters in GoT season 7 are not consistent with how the same characters acted in Season 2 than that is a good argument if the show failed to show how and why the character grew and evolved. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

The whole idea that its fan fiction is just not correct. Game of Thrones is a licensed adaptation where the author of the original source material is an executive producer and whose outline the writers of the show have based their story off of. Thus, even though there are no books they are still adapting his ending its just much looser at this point. But even if they were not it would not be fan fiction because its still Game of Thrones its own independent copy righted material done with the authors blessing and who the author makes boat loads of money off of. Fan fiction is a weak sauce insult that is not even a proper use of the term. 

If the characters in GoT season 7 are not consistent with how the same characters acted in Season 2 than that is a good argument if the show failed to show how and why the character grew and evolved. 

It's licensed, yes. From a legal standpoint, it's not fan fiction. But it is from a creative standpoint, albeit one with some more information available to them than the average fanfic writer would have. They are writing characters and a world that they did not invent, and they're writing beyond what's in the source material. That makes it fanfic, in all the ways that truly matter.

And no, that's not an insult. "Fanfic" is not an insult. That was my entire point. There's nothing stopping fanfic from being great, beyond the limitations of the writers, and their desire to make it great. But, since they started with writing an adaptation, they have to start with the established world and the established characters, when determining where the story goes. They have to let the characters determine their own behavior. Since it's fanfic, they have to follow the rules of what makes for great fanfic, if they want their story to be great. That's what I mean when I say that it's fanfic in every way that truly matters: "fanfic" provides the framework for defining the rules for how to write a great story.

Edited by Katerine459

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

It's licensed, yes. From a legal standpoint, it's not fan fiction. But it is from a creative standpoint, albeit one with some more information available to them than the average fanfic writer would have. They are writing characters and a world that they did not invent, and they're writing beyond what's in the source material. That makes it fanfic, in all the ways that truly matter.

And no, that's not an insult. "Fanfic" is not an insult. That was my entire point. There's nothing stopping fanfic from being great, beyond the limitations of the writers, and their desire to make it great. But, since they started with writing an adaptation, they have to start with the established world and the established characters, when determining where the story goes. They have to let the characters determine their own behavior. Since it's fanfic, they have to follow the rules of what makes for great fanfic, if they want their story to be great. That's what I mean when I say that it's fanfic in every way that truly matters: "fanfic" provides the framework for defining the rules for how to write a great story.

I agree fanfiction is used inappropriately all the time on this site as an insult, and it does great disservice to the many fans of this and hundreds of other shows that spend a lot of time and energy and often great skill in producing it. It's a shame.

One thing you may consider, at this point in time the rest of the show is the only version we have and there is more than a reasonable chance GRRM does not or cannot finish the books himself. In which case the show will in the end be the first, and possibly only, definitive and official version of the missing story whether people like it or not.

(NB I don't think the show has gone wrong at all, it's just changed focus as it approaches the end-game).

Edited by Daske

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

It's licensed, yes. From a legal standpoint, it's not fan fiction. But it is from a creative standpoint, albeit one with some more information available to them than the average fanfic writer would have. They are writing characters and a world that they did not invent, and they're writing beyond what's in the source material. That makes it fanfic, in all the ways that truly matter.

And no, that's not an insult. "Fanfic" is not an insult. That was my entire point. There's nothing stopping fanfic from being great, beyond the limitations of the writers, and their desire to make it great. But, since they started with writing an adaptation, they have to start with the established world and the established characters, when determining where the story goes. They have to let the characters determine their own behavior. Since it's fanfic, they have to follow the rules of what makes for great fanfic, if they want their story to be great. That's what I mean when I say that it's fanfic in every way that truly matters: "fanfic" provides the framework for defining the rules for how to write a great story.

That is such a broad defintion of fan fiction as to make it meaningless to be honest. 

Lets think about that. To write about characters and a world that they did not invent. So basically every comic book movie today is fan fiction. The current set of star wars movies are practically fan fiction. The Godfather Part 2 is fan fiction. Almost any franchise entertainment is fan ficiton. Which is a huge chunk of modern day popular entertainment. 

how is such a broad definition of fan fiction even useful? Is it providing any analytical benefit to use this non standard definition? 

I actually don’t see any to be honest unless we are just trying to be dismissive hence why i think its a weak sauce and not rigorous insult and criticism. 

its also somewhat non sensical since D&D are not producing the show in their capacity as fans but in their capacity as highly paid professionals so technically its not even fiction written by fans. They may be fans of the source material, but they don’t create this in that capacity. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

That is such a broad defintion of fan fiction as to make it meaningless to be honest. 

Lets think about that. To write about characters and a world that they did not invent. So basically every comic book movie today is fan fiction. The current set of star wars movies are practically fan fiction. The Godfather Part 2 is fan fiction. Almost any franchise entertainment is fan ficiton. Which is a huge chunk of modern day popular entertainment. 

how is such a broad definition of fan fiction even useful? Is it providing any analytical benefit to use this non standard definition? 

I actually don’t see any to be honest unless we are just trying to be dismissive hence why i think its a weak sauce comment. 

Christopher Tolkein's work too could fall under this umbrella, which doesn't seem right at all.

Edited by Daske

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

That is such a broad defintion of fan fiction as to make it meaningless to be honest. 

Lets think about that. To write about characters and a world that they did not invent. So basically every comic book movie today is fan fiction. The current set of star wars movies are practically fan fiction. The Godfather Part 2 is fan fiction. Almost any franchise entertainment is fan ficiton. Which is a huge chunk of modern day popular entertainment. 

how is such a broad definition of fan fiction even useful? Is it providing any analytical benefit to use this non standard definition? 

Yes. Yes they are. And they are often very well-written, and deservedly much-loved. Like I said, "fanfic" is in no way, shape, or form, an insult or criticism of any kind, weak-sauced or otherwise.

The distinction is useful from an analytical standpoint, because it defines the right mindset for the author to take. Instead of inventing a world, and characters, from scratch, a great fanfiction author immerses himself or herself in a pre-existing world and characters, and takes them forwards.

Edited by Katerine459

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the quality has gone down, but not because it deviated from the last two novels, which I feel were as bad as the show is today. Problem is the writing, which sucks. Character motivation is gone, leading to all manner of weirdness from Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Dany. Tyrion the cunning, brilliant dwarf trusts the slavers to do the right thing (season 6) and then gives Dany advice which nearly leads to her defeat, season 7. This is clearly not the same Tyrion who defended King's Landing. Dany decides not to move against Cersei, a decision that is never really explained, but which determines everything for season 7. Sansa hides the Vale army from Jon, leading to his men's massacre at the end of season 6. No real reason is given, and everyone's forgotten about it, season 7. Arya turns against Sansa and pulls a dagger on her. Next scene, they've made up. No reason for either state is given. It's crazy bad writing no amount of production values could wipe away.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Yes. Yes they are. And they are often very well-written, and deservedly much-loved. Like I said, "fanfic" is in no way, shape, or form, an insult or criticism of any kind, weak-sauced or otherwise.

The distinction is useful from an analytical standpoint, because it defines the right mindset for the author to take. Instead of inventing a world, and characters, from scratch, a great fanfiction author immerses himself or herself in a pre-existing world and characters, and takes them forwards.

Words have to have meaning. Either in its common usage or by its dictionary definition fan fiction does not mean what your saying it means. 

And i think thinking of this as fan fiction leads to an analytical mistake. 99% of people who watch the show will never read the books so its actually not that important for the show as its own work of art that the characters reflect the books. They can be changed for what the show needs them. The established world they have to respect is not the established world of the books but rather that of the show. 

What is important is that the characters are internally consistent in the world of the show. A character who acts a certain way in one season needs to act similarly in another season unless there is a moment of character growth explaining the change. That is the inportant thing.

That has nothing to do with being a good fan fiction writer though and more to do with just being a good writer. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, kimim said:

I agree that the quality has gone down, but not because it deviated from the last two novels, which I feel were as bad as the show is today. Problem is the writing, which sucks. Character motivation is gone, leading to all manner of weirdness from Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Dany. Tyrion the cunning, brilliant dwarf trusts the slavers to do the right thing (season 6) and then gives Dany advice which nearly leads to her defeat, season 7. This is clearly not the same Tyrion who defended King's Landing. Dany decides not to move against Cersei, a decision that is never really explained, but which determines everything for season 7. Sansa hides the Vale army from Jon, leading to his men's massacre at the end of season 6. No real reason is given, and everyone's forgotten about it, season 7. Arya turns against Sansa and pulls a dagger on her. Next scene, they've made up. No reason for either state is given. It's crazy bad writing no amount of production values could wipe away.

 

Totally agree. The characters have now become slaves to plot points rather than acting on their own motivations. The plot demands the White Walkers get a dragon to get through the wall and so all characters act in a bizarre fashion in order to make that happen. These Occurrences are happening regularly now.

As for the fan fiction classification, it’s always used as an insult, because it’s deemed amateurish and non canon. I wouldn’t go as far as that , the writing is based on plot points Martin has laid out and is a retelling of his story. It’s an adaptation. That is not how I view fan fiction 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On reflection, I think one of the biggest mistakes the show made was not taking a proper hiatus at any point during its production. I think after S4 they would have benefitted from taking a year out to really think how they were going to deal with the fact they were going to catch up and surpass the books before GRRM could finish. They still would have had to proceed with the story without The Winds of Winter but they would have had time to think about how they were doing to do it. S5 and 6 were sorts of based on plot points from A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, both of which they could have told simultaneously, as both books are taking place roughly around the same time.

A lot of the problems with the flaws in logic probably could have been ironed out had they had more time to really think through things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now