Katerine459

[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

70 posts in this topic

On 06/11/2017 at 3:09 AM, Katerine459 said:

Not that I wanted a first-season-with-the-prostitutes type scene again. Ever. Again.

Gotta admit, that was the worst of worst back in the day, and I for one am glad the showrunners stopped sexposition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Most of the time when people say the character acted out of character all it means is they didn’t act like they think they should have acted. 

That's a very good point to bear in mind when it comes to Sansa's decision to marry Ramsay Bolton. Which is horribly naive and stupid on her part. Even if Ramsay had treated her just fine, it's political suicide. Think about it: she married into the family who betrayed her own family and thus legitimised their claim on the North. There's no way around it: she is a traitor.

Imo, the show didn't do enough to show the consequences of this act. It was only once pointed out to her when she went to the Northern lords with Jon. And only once did she admit herself that her position is precarious because she was married to two enemies of the North. It wasn't made clear enough that it's probably the reason Jon was acclaimed King in the North, not her, the legitimate heir. Arya's suspicions of her are completely understandable because of that marriage and her continuing reliance on the person who brokered it. That should have been the bone of contention between them, not the letter she wrote in the hope of saving their father's life.

The marriage itself makes some sense in LF's schemes. If Sansa had started rallying the Northern lord to her instead of marrying Ramsay, then allied herself with Stannis, she would have been in a much stronger position, not dependant on LF. LF weakened her claim on purpose so he could ride in as the Knight in shining armor. It didn't quite work because of Jon. Which was probably unexpected. It gave the Northern lords an alternative to Sansa - and they took it. 

That the Boltons took the chance to be alienated from the Crown is not that surprising. They needed the marriage to legitimize their claim on Winterfell in the eyes of the Northerners. Cersei is far away and was unlikely to send help in case the lords rebelled against them - which was probably just a question of time. I suppose Roose intended to hand Sansa over once she had given Ramsay enough children to continue his family's claim on the North. And I suppose it was the reason he allowed Ramsay to treat her so horribly. Cersei would have liked that and it would have gone a long way in his favor when he would have gone to ask forgiveness instead of permission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Zapho said:

That's a very good point to bear in mind when it comes to Sansa's decision to marry Ramsay Bolton. Which is horribly naive and stupid on her part. Even if Ramsay had treated her just fine, it's political suicide. Think about it: she married into the family who betrayed her own family and thus legitimised their claim on the North. There's no way around it: she is a traitor.

Imo, the show didn't do enough to show the consequences of this act. It was only once pointed out to her when she went to the Northern lords with Jon. And only once did she admit herself that her position is precarious because she was married to two enemies of the North. It wasn't made clear enough that it's probably the reason Jon was acclaimed King in the North, not her, the legitimate heir. Arya's suspicions of her are completely understandable because of that marriage and her continuing reliance on the person who brokered it. That should have been the bone of contention between them, not the letter she wrote in the hope of saving their father's life.

That is a great point! I don’t think i can ever watch Lyana M nominate Jon as King anymore without thinking back to what she told Sansa regarding her not being a Stark. Feel dumb that I didn’t make that connection before. 

Agreed on the rest. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

That is a great point! I don’t think i can ever watch Lyana M nominate Jon as King anymore without thinking back to what she told Sansa regarding her not being a Stark. Feel dumb that I didn’t make that connection before. 

Agreed on the rest. 

 

*Sandra

Lyanna Mormont insisted Lady Sandra was a Bolton :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, valgrel said:

:agree:

 

The main issue for me of the WF plot was the writers will to have a big twisty line at the beginning of LF "trial"  (how do you answer.... Lord Baelish). So they didn't show 3 important scenes which happened earlier  : Sansa/Bran where Bran told her about the previous LF betrayals, Sansa/Arya/Bran where they decided to execute him and Sansa/Royce where they planned the trial. With these scenes the plot would have been consistent for me, but then no surprise...

:agree:

for me the big mistake was how they told the story. They told it as a suspense/ horror style thriller versus as a straight up drama. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

*Sandra

Lyanna Mormont insisted Lady Sandra was a Bolton :P

Lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

*Sandra

Lyanna Mormont insisted Lady Sandra was a Bolton :P

Season 6 felt like a bit of a slog for Sandra and Carol, to be honest. Sure, both stories ended with epic battle and blowing up of the sept respectfully that gave us excellent visuals but we went through a lot of pain to get there. Especially with Sandra, I still don't understand why she didn't just tell Kit Harrington about the Vale Army coming when their little brother's life was at sake.

This show reduced everyone in the Great Sept and poor little Rickon to death fodder. That annoyed me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Zapho said:

That's a very good point to bear in mind when it comes to Sansa's decision to marry Ramsay Bolton. Which is horribly naive and stupid on her part. Even if Ramsay had treated her just fine, it's political suicide. Think about it: she married into the family who betrayed her own family and thus legitimised their claim on the North. There's no way around it: she is a traitor.

Imo, the show didn't do enough to show the consequences of this act. It was only once pointed out to her when she went to the Northern lords with Jon. And only once did she admit herself that her position is precarious because she was married to two enemies of the North. It wasn't made clear enough that it's probably the reason Jon was acclaimed King in the North, not her, the legitimate heir. Arya's suspicions of her are completely understandable because of that marriage and her continuing reliance on the person who brokered it. That should have been the bone of contention between them, not the letter she wrote in the hope of saving their father's life.

It could have been explained. Sansa returned to WF, facing abuse and rape, in order to avenge her family's tragedy. That's how LF first sold the marriage to Sansa, and I bought it, as it all happened after the show started talking about the "new Sansa." 

The problem, as usual in the later seasons, was that the show didn't follow up on it. Sansa married Ramsay and did nothing against the Boltons other than escape them. This was the "new Sansa," acting exactly as the old Sansa might have done--passive, helpless victim whose only power is in getting others to take pity on her. Where was the "new Sansa" in all this? Where was her revenge? It's thanks to her helplessness and passivity that her entire experience of WF can be reduced to being raped, why the North thinks of her as a Bolton.  

Then, of course, Sansa finally did do something: hid the Vale, nearly getting her brother killed, causing massive casualties among the wildlings. Had Sansa been Olenna or Cersei or Tywin, the explanation would be obvious: she wanted Jon and the wildlings dead as she wanted the North for herself, so she acted. But no, as again the show failed to follow up. Sansa did this crazy thing, then season 7 excised the ending to season 6 from its history. Season 7 Jon trusted Sansa, for reasons I can not fathom. Arya never found out, never used Sansa's decision against her. 

It's crazy. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8.11.2017 at 4:20 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

*Sandra

Lyanna Mormont insisted Lady Sandra was a Bolton :P

I actually like that detail quite a bit. She had to ask the Maester for Sansa's name and still got it wrong. The kid had her priorities straight.;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 4:20 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

*Sandra

Lyanna Mormont insisted Lady Sandra was a Bolton :P

Plus, it was the scene with Lyanna that was absolutly right time to mention Rickon, but for some reason nobody does.

Edited by Rhodan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now