Corvo the Crow Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 I am spending less and less time on the forums and soon I'll no longer be visiting the forums for a very long time, if ever. As a result I'll no longer be updating this thread. Anyone who wishes to continue this thread is of course welcome to open their own and use the information gathered here so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 It seems that chinlessness of Freys come from Walder's mother, since his father was never described as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 Just a small update on Valyrians Quote The Lyseni are also great breeders of slaves, mating beauty with beauty in hopes of producing ever more refined and lovely courtesans and bedslaves. The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. The Lysene nobility values purity of blood above all and have produced many famous (and infamous) beauties. Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty. Aptly, many Lyseni worship a love goddess whose naked, wanton figure graces their coinage. The captain had been very kind to him. His name was Khorane Sathmantes, a Lyseni like Salladhor Saan, whose ship this was. He had the pale blue eyes you often saw on Lys, set in a bony weatherworn face, but he had spent many years trading in the Seven Kingdoms. When he learned that the man he had plucked from the sea was the celebrated onion knight, he gave him the use of his own cabin and his own clothes, and a pair of new boots that almost fit. He insisted that Davos share his provisions as well, though that turned out badly. His stomach could not tolerate the snails and lampreys and other rich food Captain Khorane so relished, and after his first meal at the captain's table he spent the rest of the day with one end or the other dangling over the rail. Also a question, what is the difference between Grey, blue-grey and Pale blue eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Also a question, what is the difference between Grey, blue-grey and Pale blue eyes? Blue-grey are blue eyes but with a grey undertone that makes them darker and in low light they may even be mistaken for grey, alternatively in certain light especially when it is shining right into the eyes the grey can seem to disappear making it look like the eyes are just blue. I know this because i have blue-grey eyes myself. Pale blue would be very light blue with no undertone. Grey is just what it says, eyes that are the color grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 3:20 PM, Corvo the Crow said: I am spending less and less time on the forums and soon I'll no longer be visiting the forums for a very long time, if ever. As a result I'll no longer be updating this thread. Anyone who wishes to continue this thread is of course welcome to open their own and use the information gathered here so far. Hey there. You linked me to this discussion from the other thread. I have skimmed a few pages, but wanted to come back and read this with more focus later. However, I am curious if you are still game to this discussion if you won’t be doing anymore updates. I know things can change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 1, 2018 Author Share Posted March 1, 2018 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: However, I am curious if you are still game to this discussion if you won’t be doing anymore updates. I know things can change Sure I am! For the moment I am able to update it again, from time to time at least, though I'm not sure for how many days(or weeks) I'll have the time to spend in the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 33 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Sure I am! For the moment I am able to update it again, from time to time at least, though I'm not sure for how many days(or weeks) I'll have the time to spend in the forums. I totally get it. That has been me the last few months as well. And now as I type this, I just got off the phone with someone regarding work and now have to run out for a few hours. ACK! I'll get back to you a bit later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 5:50 AM, Corvo the Crow said: Just a small update on Valyrians Also a question, what is the difference between Grey, blue-grey and Pale blue eyes? Just to touch lightly on this "pale" eye color, this is most definitely plot driven and the exact "genetics" of it do not matter nearly as much. What GRRM says about this bit: Q: What color do you have in mind when you write that someone has "pale" eyes? GRRM: Very light grey or blue. In the most extreme cases, like Roose Bolton's, the eyes would look almost colorless. The historic power struggle between the Starks and Boltons goes way, way back, and what we read on page now is the culmination of all of this tension. There is most likely a bastard situation in the distant past (which is why Ramsay is so sensative to being called a bastard), and in the books there is the classicist dichotomy between rubies (royal/of value) and garnets (the "bastard" to rubies). This is the symbolic source of tension between Ramsay (still a bastard and not legit under any law), and Jon, who is more than likely the ruby of the situation. Also the Boltons tend to have pale blue eyes that are like bits of dirty ice. That dirty part is rather self explanatory A Dance with Dragons - Reek I At the high table the Bastard of Bolton sat in his lord father's seat, drinking from his father's cup. Two old men shared the high table with him, and Reek knew at a glance that both were lords. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard, and a face as hard as a winter frost. His jerkin was a ragged bearskin, worn and greasy. Underneath he wore a ringmail byrnie, even at table. The second lord was thin as well, but twisted where the first was straight. One of his shoulders was much higher than the other, and he stooped over his trencher like a vulture over carrion. His eyes were grey and greedy, his teeth yellow, his forked beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine, grey wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver. Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. Yet for all the splendor of his garb, he remained an ugly man, big-boned and slope-shouldered, with a fleshiness to him that suggested that in later life he would run to fat. His skin was pink and blotchy, his nose broad, his mouth small, his hair long and dark and dry. His lips were wide and meaty, but the thing men noticed first about him were his eyes. He had his lord father's eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice. A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost? Here and there a torch burned hungrily, casting its ruddy glow over the faces of the wedding guests. The way the mists threw back the shifting light made their features seem bestial, half-human, twisted. Lord Stout became a mastiff, old Lord Locke a vulture, Whoresbane Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder Frey a fox, Little Walder a red bull, lacking only a ring for his nose. Roose Bolton's own face was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be. Above their heads the trees were full of ravens, their feathers fluffed as they hunched on bare brown branches, staring down at the pageantry below. Maester Luwin's birds. Luwin was dead, and his maester's tower had been put to the torch, yet the ravens lingered. This is their home. Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 3, 2018 Author Share Posted March 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Just to touch lightly on this "pale" eye color, this is most definitely plot driven and the exact "genetics" of it do not matter nearly as much. What GRRM says about this bit: Q: What color do you have in mind when you write that someone has "pale" eyes? GRRM: Very light grey or blue. In the most extreme cases, like Roose Bolton's, the eyes would look almost colorless. Well, if there's any sort of genetics at play, it would be somewhat mendelian as I've said in some other topic I started(and failed to continue). But it's not that "brown is dominant and red is recessive" but rather noble/great house blonde is dominant to common folk brown (Tyrion + brown haired Tasha gives blonde Lanna) or noble brown and noble auburn are "equally dominant" but only one will appear in phenotype (Stark children) same with noble brown and yellow(Manderly sisters). Or to give some examples besides coloring, Florent ears are dominant to many other noble ears that all Florent descendants have the ears. I had put a theory that genes of the series are also "magical" and if an heir to a seat doesn't carry the features of that family, he/she simply gets removed from succession, sometimes peacefully like Blackwoodish Duncan the small or Tullyish Bran and Rickon(not so peacefully but they live still) and sometimes violently like Rhaenyra's Strong looking children, Tullyish Robb, or even Dacey Mormont who is lanky in contrast with her short and muscular mother, sisters and cousin. 31 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: The historic power struggle between the Starks and Boltons goes way, way back, and what we read on page now is the culmination of all of this tension. There is most likely a bastard situation in the distant past (which is why Ramsay is so sensative to being called a bastard), and in the books there is the classicist dichotomy between rubies (royal/of value) and garnets (the "bastard" to rubies). This is the symbolic source of tension between Ramsay (still a bastard and not legit under any law), and Jon, who is more than likely the ruby of the situation. I'm not quite sure I get this part. As for Bolton eye color, we only know Ramsay has Roose's eyes, which are almost colorless, chips of dirty ice. We don't know whether Roose got his eyes from his mother or his father. Likely both since we mostly see grey eyes on first men but still it doesn't seem to be an established trait like the horse face of Starks (all those statues and even Waynwood cousins) or say red hair of Red Raven's descendants, house Redbeard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Just to touch lightly on this "pale" eye color, this is most definitely plot driven and the exact "genetics" of it do not matter nearly as much. What GRRM says about this bit: Q: What color do you have in mind when you write that someone has "pale" eyes? GRRM: Very light grey or blue. In the most extreme cases, like Roose Bolton's, the eyes would look almost colorless. The historic power struggle between the Starks and Boltons goes way, way back, and what we read on page now is the culmination of all of this tension. There is most likely a bastard situation in the distant past (which is why Ramsay is so sensative to being called a bastard), and in the books there is the classicist dichotomy between rubies (royal/of value) and garnets (the "bastard" to rubies). This is the symbolic source of tension between Ramsay (still a bastard and not legit under any law), and Jon, who is more than likely the ruby of the situation. Also the Boltons tend to have pale blue eyes that are like bits of dirty ice. That dirty part is rather self explanatory A Dance with Dragons - Reek I At the high table the Bastard of Bolton sat in his lord father's seat, drinking from his father's cup. Two old men shared the high table with him, and Reek knew at a glance that both were lords. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard, and a face as hard as a winter frost. His jerkin was a ragged bearskin, worn and greasy. Underneath he wore a ringmail byrnie, even at table. The second lord was thin as well, but twisted where the first was straight. One of his shoulders was much higher than the other, and he stooped over his trencher like a vulture over carrion. His eyes were grey and greedy, his teeth yellow, his forked beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine, grey wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver. Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. Yet for all the splendor of his garb, he remained an ugly man, big-boned and slope-shouldered, with a fleshiness to him that suggested that in later life he would run to fat. His skin was pink and blotchy, his nose broad, his mouth small, his hair long and dark and dry. His lips were wide and meaty, but the thing men noticed first about him were his eyes. He had his lord father's eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice. A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost? Here and there a torch burned hungrily, casting its ruddy glow over the faces of the wedding guests. The way the mists threw back the shifting light made their features seem bestial, half-human, twisted. Lord Stout became a mastiff, old Lord Locke a vulture, Whoresbane Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder Frey a fox, Little Walder a red bull, lacking only a ring for his nose. Roose Bolton's own face was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be. Above their heads the trees were full of ravens, their feathers fluffed as they hunched on bare brown branches, staring down at the pageantry below. Maester Luwin's birds. Luwin was dead, and his maester's tower had been put to the torch, yet the ravens lingered. This is their home. Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home. Roose's eyes remind Jaime of Eddard, if that adds something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said: Roose's eyes remind Jaime of Eddard, if that adds something. I am not recalling this quote/thought from the books, but if anything, then yeah, the past most likely has a Stark-Bolton bastard issue... and this could easily be another detailed thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 3, 2018 Author Share Posted March 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said: Roose's eyes remind Jaime of Eddard, if that adds something. Grey-ish eyes are the most common ones we see on First Men so it's hard to connect Boltons and Starks on just that. Many others have the same eyes, Royces and Manderlys as example of families, Stevron Frey and Val as example of characters. Stevron likely took the eyes of her mother though, so he is with Royces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: I'm not quite sure I get this part. As for Bolton eye color, we only know Ramsay has Roose's eyes, which are almost colorless, chips of dirty ice. We don't know whether Roose got his eyes from his mother or his father. Likely both since we mostly see grey eyes on first men but still it doesn't seem to be an established trait like the horse face of Starks (all those statues and even Waynwood cousins) or say red hair of Red Raven's descendants, house Redbeard. I will have to get back to the first part a little later. But for now... the chances that we ever really get details on any physical characteristics of the Boltons past to be able to line it up with Roose and Ramsay probably won't happen. Maybe? But probably not. The thing George is trying do here with the eye colors in the Stark-Bolton case is to show the struggles they have had and why. The Bolton history includes wearing the skins of people (and Starks) and is most likely has some offshoot/bastard issue that did not get the skinchanger talent (gene?), and this is causing a jealous rift between the two houses. This is a very short answer, and as mentioned above, it could easily by its own detailed thread George has told this story before elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I am not recalling this quote/thought from the books, but if anything, then yeah, the past most likely has a Stark-Bolton bastard issue... and this could easily be another detailed thread I think it was in a "coldness" context, when Eddard saw Jaime with his blooded sword in the Throne room after the war and Roose in Harrenhal. 14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Grey-ish eyes are the most common ones we see on First Men so it's hard to connect Boltons and Starks on just that. Many others have the same eyes, Royces and Manderlys as example of families, Stevron Frey and Val as example of characters. Stevron likely took the eyes of her mother though, so he is with Royces. Yeah all of those Northerners are cousins, it's not a big deal, but while at it, Jaime's grasp on things as a neutral viewer was worth adding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: George has told this story before elsewhere Consider me intrigued. Would like to learn more on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 12 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: Yeah all of those Northerners are cousins, it's not a big deal, but while at it, Jaime's grasp on things as a neutral viewer was worth adding. Well, Eddard looks cold on the outside but that's just that and he has a warm heart underneath that cold skin while Roose is the very soul of icyness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 In the thread above I tried to connect First men and Valyrians but it has occured to me that Qaathi also have some features seen with the First men like the pale skin and being tall and on top of that they also have their origins in the grassland of Essos. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 Quote Marei was a cool, pale, delicate girl Tyrion had noticed once or twice. Green eyes and porcelain skin, long straight silvery hair, very lovely, but too solemn by half. "I'd hate to have the poor child lose her pearls on account of me." Marei's hair makes me think she is of Valyrian descent. We also have another character of Valyrian descent with (gray) green eyes, Aurane Waters. So Valyrians may have green eyes also, but not so common as the blue and purplish ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Blackwoods are tall (Brynden Rivers in addition to Tytos and Hoster previously listed) and slender (Tytos, Hoster, Brynden Rivers, Melissa) Possibly dark or black haired (Tytos has pepper and salt hair, Black Betha had dark hair, Lothar Frey, son of Alyssa, has dark hair) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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