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Family Defining Features - Will No Longer Get Updates


Corvo the Crow

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13 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I know, that's why i do not discount it as a possibility, but do warn against taking it as a certainty.

As i said the descendants of Jocelyn could have married back into the main Waynwood line, thus leaving the possibility open.

Her descendant married to the main Waynwood line anyway, unless there's a side branch we haven't heard of so far.; The Junior branch Jocelyn married into is of House Royce. Her daughters married to a Waynwood, a Corbray and another Catelyn can't remember of. It could be the unremembered house is the main line of Royces, with theories around others mistaking Waymar for a Stark.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Her descendant married to the main Waynwood line anyway, unless there's a side branch we haven't heard of so far.; The Junior branch Jocelyn married into is of House Royce. Her daughters married to a Waynwood, a Corbray and another Catelyn can't remember of. It could be the unremembered house is the main line of Royces, with theories around others mistaking Waymar for a Stark.

This is where that calculation i told you about comes in, from the information from the books and some semi-canon information it was calculated that Lady Anya  was to old to be a descendant of Jocelyn Stark.

And even do it is stated that one of the daughters married a Waynwood it is clearly stated Waynwood not the Lord Waynwood, leaving the clear possibility of it being a side branch.

 

I will try to recreate the calculation for you:

Ronald Waynwood is 25 in 300 AC as per the WoW  Alayane chapter he is the son of Lady Anya's oldest son Morton Waynwood.

Morton's age is unknown but if we assume the bare minimum age 16 for marriage (the age of adulthood for men) and that he had Roland within a year he would be a minimum of 42 in 300.

If we then assume that Lady Anya was married upon her flowering she would be married around 12 and could (which is very grose to think about) have been a mother at 13. Assuming for a moment that Morton is her oldest child Anya is at a minimum 55 in 300 (but likely between 5 and 10 years older)

Ned Stark would have been 37 in 300 and his brother Brandon was a year older so even if we assume that there father Rickard was like Morton the minimum age of 17 when Brandon was born he would have been 55 in 300 or possibly older.

So Rickard and Anya are of the same generation and Jocelyn is Rickard's aunt, and there is because of the death at a young age of there father no room for a big age diferens between Jocelyn and her brother Edwyle, so in order to be a descendant of Jocelyn she would have to be Jocelyns daughter and that is only possible if she is not a Waynwood by birth but the daughter that married a Waynwood.

But Anya is a Waynwood by birth this we know for two reasons:

One because Elys Waynwood is her clearly stated to be her uncle not her Good-uncle as he would be if she was not a Waynwood by birth, thus making it impossible that she is not a Waynwood by birth.

And two because if she was not a Waynwood by birth she would not be the ruling Lady, because the Lordship would have passed to her son Morton upon her husbands death.

Thus it is impossible for Lady Anya to be Jocelyns descendant.

 

This is the calculation as best as i remember it, it was a few years back that is was discussed in a tread so i probably forgot some details.

It is still possible for them to have stark blood but it is by no means a certainty. 

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17 hours ago, direpupy said:

This is where that calculation i told you about comes in, from the information from the books and some semi-canon information it was calculated that Lady Anya  was to old to be a descendant of Jocelyn Stark.

And even do it is stated that one of the daughters married a Waynwood it is clearly stated Waynwood not the Lord Waynwood, leaving the clear possibility of it being a side branch.

 

I will try to recreate the calculation for you:

Ronald Waynwood is 25 in 300 AC as per the WoW  Alayane chapter he is the son of Lady Anya's oldest son Morton Waynwood.

Morton's age is unknown but if we assume the bare minimum age 16 for marriage (the age of adulthood for men) and that he had Roland within a year he would be a minimum of 42 in 300.

If we then assume that Lady Anya was married upon her flowering she would be married around 12 and could (which is very grose to think about) have been a mother at 13. Assuming for a moment that Morton is her oldest child Anya is at a minimum 55 in 300 (but likely between 5 and 10 years older)

Ned Stark would have been 37 in 300 and his brother Brandon was a year older so even if we assume that there father Rickard was like Morton the minimum age of 17 when Brandon was born he would have been 55 in 300 or possibly older.

So Rickard and Anya are of the same generation and Jocelyn is Rickard's aunt, and there is because of the death at a young age of there father no room for a big age diferens between Jocelyn and her brother Edwyle, so in order to be a descendant of Jocelyn she would have to be Jocelyns daughter and that is only possible if she is not a Waynwood by birth but the daughter that married a Waynwood.

But Anya is a Waynwood by birth this we know for two reasons:

One because Elys Waynwood is her clearly stated to be her uncle not her Good-uncle as he would be if she was not a Waynwood by birth, thus making it impossible that she is not a Waynwood by birth.

And two because if she was not a Waynwood by birth she would not be the ruling Lady, because the Lordship would have passed to her son Morton upon her husbands death.

Thus it is impossible for Lady Anya to be Jocelyns descendant.

 

This is the calculation as best as i remember it, it was a few years back that is was discussed in a tread so i probably forgot some details.

It is still possible for them to have stark blood but it is by no means a certainty. 

Dagon Greyjoy was raiding the Reach and Westerlands in 211, Beron Stark was gathering men to attack him, he returns home wounded.

We don't know how old he was  and when exactly he died, but he probably diead in 213 at the latest.He had at least 7 children at the time, so he was probably around thirty, even forty unless he got real lucky.He is then replaced by his son Donnor and Donnor is replaced by his brother, Willam, who died in 226. Willam had three children, his first born was Brandon,who died at the age of three. Old Nan probably came for this Brandon. His other children are Jocelyn and  Edwyle. It is Edwyle who becomes lord, not Artos so he must have been old enough that his uncles didn't take over.

Edwyle's son marries to Edwyle's cousin from his youngest uncle, so his uncle's daughter is not old enough to marry Edwyle but young enough to marry Edwyle's son Rickard.

 

Dunk and Egg are supposed to visit Winterfell around the time of the succession crisis after Beron. Old nan could have been around at the time.

Hodor is old nan's great-grandson, through one of his two sons as her daughters married and moved away. Old nan's sons die in Robert's Rebellion and her grandson, certainly Hodor's father, dies in Pyke.

 

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Slender girl may or may not be Old nan, as she should be around there at the time. Knight as tall as Hodor must be Dunk. I think pregnant woman is Marna Locke because Rickard has no siblings, we don't get much information on Edwyle, but it can't be his mother that beds for a son to avenge her as Artos already avenged the death of Willam.

 

You must have spotted some things that looks very much like inconsistencies in what I've written so far; Old nan comes for Brandon the Babe and has already children but somehow both her two sons and her grandson are old/young enough to fight around the time of Rebellions.

Young slender girl can't possibly be Old Nan as she already had children at the time so there also must be a husband. Her husband may be dead of course and her sons could be twins begotten from Dunk but this still makes them near 70 years old at the time of RR. We don't know Hodor's age but he should.

 

Point of all of these, especially those on Brandon the Babe and Old Nan are, there are great inconsistencies. If you bend things just enough, you can get Jocelyn as a Waynwood ancestor for example, among many other things. If not, well there are things that makes no sense no matter what you try and they will remain as inconsistencies; If were we to assume that Brandon the Babe was the third child of Beron and Lyanna Glover his second wife, even then he can be born no later than 227, with Beron dead in 226. Going with this, By 230 Old Nan already had children, yet noth her sons Join Robert's Rebellion. How?

 

Jocelyn could well be married by 226 when her father died. Say, her oldest daughter was born in 227, 13 years later she marries to a Waynwood and gives birth.

For an attempt with a different approach from the current Waynwood family;

Roland Waynwood is no more than 25 but also older than His uncle Wallace and Harrold, who is 18-19. This means Wallace is no more than 24 himself. Robb would be his age if he lived, according to Sansa. So from her he is 17. How old would be Lady Anya, if her son is 17? Would she bear a children when she was 50 years old? If, say she gave birth to Wallace at the age of 43, which is a real stretch to do naturally even today, she is at most 60 years old by Sansa's account. Makes her year of birth 240.

 

This is what Catelyn knows

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"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

 

Is it neccesary for  a lordling Waynwood to be a side branch?

Here are some lordlings;

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"Father must have known that, because he sent out some men to oppose them, under the king's own banner. He gave the command to some southron lordling, Lord Erik or Derik or something like that, but Ser Raymun Darry rode with him, and the letter said there were other knights as well, and a force of Father's own guardsmen.

"Do you?" Lord Tywin did not seem awed. "We also have a pair of Ned Stark's afterthoughts making a nuisance of themselves by harassing my foraging parties. Beric Dondarrion, some young lordling with delusions of valor

 

"Make way!" someone shouted from the cross street. "Make way for my lords of Redwyne!" It was all Arya could do to get out of the road before they ran her down, four guardsmen on huge horses, pounding past at a gallop. They wore checked cloaks, blue-and-burgundy. Behind them, two young lordlings rode side by side on a pair of chestnut mares alike as peas in a pod. Arya had seen them in the bailey a hundred times; the Redwyne twins, Ser Horas and Ser Hobber, homely youths with orange hair and square, freckled faces.

 

Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am." Jyck had not always troubled to do that. There was a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure … a look that Tyrion Lannister did not ever care to see again.

 

"Was there ever a war where only one side bled?" Her uncle gave a shake of the head. "The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye. The fighting has spread south to the Blackwater and north across the Trident, almost to the Twins. Marq Piper and Karyl Vance have won some small victories, and this southron lordling Beric Dondarrion has been raiding the raiders, falling upon Lord Tywin's foraging parties and vanishing back into the woods.

 

Davos would have given much to know what he was thinking, but one such as Velaryon would never confide in him. The Lord of the Tides was of the blood of ancient Valyria, and his House had thrice provided brides for Targaryen princes; Davos Seaworth stank of fish and onions. It was the same with the other lordlings. He could trust none of them, nor would they ever include him in their private councils. They scorned his sons as well. My grandsons will joust with theirs, though, and one day their blood may wed with mine. In time my little black ship will fly as high as Velaryon's seahorse or Celtigar's red crabs

 

She cradled the tea in her scarred hands and blew on it to cool it. Shadd was one of the Winterfell men. Robb had sent twenty of his best to see her safely to Renly. He had sent five lordlings as well, whose names and high birth would add weight and honor to her mission. As they made their way south, staying well clear of towns and holdfasts, they had seen bands of mailed men more than once, and glimpsed smoke on the eastern horizon, but none had dared molest them. They were too weak to be a threat, too many to be easy prey. Once across the Blackwater, the worst was behind. For the past four days, they had seen no signs of war.

 

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On High cheekbones

Cheekbones are mentioned only 13 times in all the books and High Cheekbones only 6 times.

Mentions are; Nymeria Sand having high cheekbones due to her Valyrian descent, Sansa having high cheekbones same as her mother Catelyn and grandmother Minisa, Jason Mallister , Gerold Dayne and Val.

This got me thinking, could it be introduced into Westeros by Valyrians? With the exception of Daynes.

 

Do we know any Valyrians marrying to the ancestor of Jason Mallister or Minisa Whent?

 

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On 10/10/2017 at 2:26 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I'm open for improvements on how I try to determine this so feel free to give advice!

I'll throw one in that is completely left field:

Tywin Lannister: dwarfism

Tywin is of course a big fat liar when it comes to prostitutes.  He isn't the paragon of virtue he pretends to be when we find him in bed with Shae.  So what kind of bastards does Tywin produce?  His sister Joanna confronts him on Tyrion's paternity and he doesn't speak to her again for months.  She tells Jaime that there is no question that Tyrion is Tywin's son.  Is it because he has other progeny with dwarfism?  Is this why whores and dwarfs aren't allowed near him?  LOL

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon was in no mood for anyone's counsel. "What do you know about being a bastard?"

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

Interesting turn of phrase.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Point of all of these, especially those on Brandon the Babe and Old Nan are, there are great inconsistencies. If you bend things just enough, you can get Jocelyn as a Waynwood ancestor for example, among many other things. If not, well there are things that makes no sense no matter what you try and they will remain as inconsistencies; If were we to assume that Brandon the Babe was the third child of Beron and Lyanna Glover his second wife, even then he can be born no later than 227, with Beron dead in 226. Going with this, By 230 Old Nan already had children, yet noth her sons Join Robert's Rebellion. How?

The bending would have to be considerable, but again i never said it was impossible just that stating it as a certainty is not something you can do based on what we currently have for evidence.

The whole Horseface thing might not be a family trait of exclusive of the Starks, just like the hair and eye color of the Targaryens are not unique to there family but a trait shared with all family's of Valyrian decent. 

 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll throw one in that is completely left field:

Tywin Lannister: dwarfism

Tywin is of course a big fat liar when it comes to prostitutes.  He isn't the paragon of virtue he pretends to be when we find him in bed with Shae.  So what kind of bastards does Tywin produce?  His sister Joanna confronts him on Tyrion's paternity and he doesn't speak to her again for months.  She tells Jaime that there is no question that Tyrion is Tywin's son.  Is it because he has other progeny with dwarfism?  Is this why whores and dwarfs aren't allowed near him?  LOL

Interesting turn of phrase.

Point me to some dwarves with Tywin as a possible parent and I think we've found one for Tywin specifically :D

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8 hours ago, direpupy said:

The bending would have to be considerable, but again i never said it was impossible just that stating it as a certainty is not something you can do based on what we currently have for evidence.

The whole Horseface thing might not be a family trait of exclusive of the Starks, just like the hair and eye color of the Targaryens are not unique to there family but a trait shared with all family's of Valyrian decent. 

 

No it's not, with her youngest son seemingly 17 years old, Lady Anya can only be so old.

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43 minutes ago, direpupy said:

yes it is, even in the best case scenario she is a minimum of 55 and that is already to old be a descendant of Jocelyn

Being 55, she must be born 245. Jocelny's father dies in 226 so at the latest she was born in 227, which would put 18 years between Anya and Jocelyn, this is the youngest Jocelyn could be.

Working on from Anya and her sons, grandsons; When Wallace was born, Morton was already had his son Roland.

Anya marries at 13 as highborn maids flower when they are 12-13 we are told, gives birth to Morton when she is 14.

We are never given an age for Roland, only he is no more than 25 and older than Harry and Wallace. I'll put him to 20.

Let's say Morton marries and becomes a father when he's 16. 14 +16+20 = 50. We are five years good.

 

Working on from Starks Beron dies in 211, Willam in 226. We aren't given a date for Donnor's death. Even if we assume Willam married only after Donnor died, Donnor could very well have died in 212, giving 14 years for Willam to have Brandon the Babe, Edwyle and Jocelyn. Jocelyn could well be born in 215. Giving her 30 years with an 55 years old Anya and 35 years for an 50 year old anya. Enough time to have a daughter that can marry Anya's father, who is a Vale Lordling.

 

To further support for Roland being much younger than 25, a real life example; A few months back, there was this girl who took a liking to me. I was 24 at the time and she was 18 or maybe 19. At first she assumed me to be younger than her. A few months later, she met a friend of mine who is 3 years younger than me and assumed him to be older than me at first. This is  one example I can give fully fleshed out, there are plenty of instances where men as young as 17-18 taking me to be younger than them when I'm clean shaven. And even the beard not always helps during summertime when "green boys" also let their beards grow for a couple of months.

Appearances can be deceiving, and they do deceive. To give another example, from the boks this time, Gendry looks older than he could possibly be.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Being 55, she must be born 245. Jocelny's father dies in 226 so at the latest she was born in 227, which would put 18 years between Anya and Jocelyn, this is the youngest Jocelyn could be.

Working on from Anya and her sons, grandsons; When Wallace was born, Morton was already had his son Roland.

Anya marries at 13 as highborn maids flower when they are 12-13 we are told, gives birth to Morton when she is 14.

We are never given an age for Roland, only he is no more than 25 and older than Harry and Wallace. I'll put him to 20.

Let's say Morton marries and becomes a father when he's 16. 14 +16+20 = 50. We are five years good.

Its a nice calculation but as i said you are working with minimums, in most marriages we see in the books the brides are 16 or older, so while it might work working with these minimums, the likelihood of both Anya and Morton marrying  below the average age and having children young is a stretch.

It is possible do i will give you that.

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Working on from Starks Beron dies in 211, Willam in 226. We aren't given a date for Donnor's death. Even if we assume Willam married only after Donnor died, Donnor could very well have died in 212, giving 14 years for Willam to have Brandon the Babe, Edwyle and Jocelyn. Jocelyn could well be born in 215. Giving her 30 years with an 55 years old Anya and 35 years for an 50 year old anya. Enough time to have a daughter that can marry Anya's father, who is a Vale Lordling.

This is a good calculation and makes it more likely but only if you still work with the bare minimum for Anya and the maximum for Jocelyn.

14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

To further support for Roland being much younger than 25, a real life example; A few months back, there was this girl who took a liking to me. I was 24 at the time and she was 18 or maybe 19. At first she assumed me to be younger than her. A few months later, she met a friend of mine who is 3 years younger than me and assumed him to be older than me at first. This is  one example I can give fully fleshed out, there are plenty of instances where men as young as 17-18 taking me to be younger than them when I'm clean shaven. And even the beard not always helps during summertime when "green boys" also let their beards grow for a couple of months.

How does this make a case for Roland being younger? Your example is about someone thinking you younger then you are, so if anything this is proof that he may be older because he may look younger then he actually is.

Again i am not saying its impossible, i am saying you can't be sure because it only works if you use the bare minimums for Anya and Morton and the maximum for Jocelyn.

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10 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Its a nice calculation but as i said you are working with minimums, in most marriages we see in the books the brides are 16 or older, so while it might work working with these minimums, the likelihood of both Anya and Morton marrying  below the average age and having children young is a stretch.

It is possible do i will give you that.

This is a good calculation and makes it more likely but only if you still work with the bare minimum for Anya and the maximum for Jocelyn.

How does this make a case for Roland being younger? Your example is about someone thinking you younger then you are, so if anything this is proof that he may be older because he may look younger then he actually is.

Again i am not saying its impossible, i am saying you can't be sure because it only works if you use the bare minimums for Anya and Morton and the maximum for Jocelyn.

My example is about looks can be deceiving; While I am taken as younger, my friend who was actually three years my junior was taken older than me, after my age was known.

 

As for working on minimuns; we are given a hint towards Jocelyn there, so I'll work on that. Bear in mind again there are inconsistencies in the books, as I gave with Old Nan's example.

Her sons die fighting in bobberts rebellion when she would have come to winterfell with her children in 227 at the latest.

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3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My example is about looks can be deceiving; While I am taken as younger, my friend who was actually three years my junior was taken older than me, after my age was known.

Ah okay, but the point still stands Roland does not necessarily have to be younger then 25 he could also be older.

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for working on minimuns; we are given a hint towards Jocelyn there, so I'll work on that. Bear in mind again there are inconsistencies in the books, as I gave with Old Nan's example.

It is a hint the horseface, but only one and from a sample chapter that is still subject to change. I would like it to be true because it would be very interesting for Sansa to find out Anya may be related to her.

But i think that for now counting the horseface thing as a trait inherited from Jocelyn is to uncertain to call.

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for working on minimuns; we are given a hint towards Jocelyn there, so I'll work on that. Bear in mind again there are inconsistencies in the books, as I gave with Old Nan's example.

Her sons die fighting in bobberts rebellion when she would have come to winterfell with her children in 227 at the latest.

As to old Nan we actually do not know when her children are born all we know is that at least one was born before she came because otherwise she could not serve as wet nurse, but her other children could well have been born in Winterfell. If her sons where among her youngest children it would not be much of an inconsistency, also her sons could have served as veteran serjeant's and already have been older when they died.

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7 hours ago, direpupy said:

.

It is a hint the horseface, but only one and from a sample chapter that is still subject to change. I would like it to be true because it would be very interesting for Sansa to find out Anya may be related to her.

But i think that for now counting the horseface thing as a trait inherited from Jocelyn is to uncertain to call.

 

Agreed, it may change but for the moment it is like that and if it is to stay like that what I say need apply, or else it would be inconsistent with the numbers.

 

On old nan; at the oldest, how old could she be with her last birth? How old she would be with her first? We don't get an explanation whether Brandon is the oldest sibling or not but his mother is the one dying so pretty certain he is the first born. Since there would be some time before his father marries to get more children this puts nan coming to winterfell in an earlier time. How old would be the oldest serjeant? We see some rather old men fighting but we also have Gulian Swann

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"There is only one question I would put to you. You served us loyally, it's true . . . but Varys tells me that your brother rode with Renly and then Stannis, whilst your lord father chose not to call his banners at all and remained behind the walls of Stonehelm all through the fighting."
"My father is an old man, my lord. Well past forty. His fighting days are done."

Apparently being past forty is an excuse for not fighting even for a high lord.

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On 12/6/2017 at 6:35 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Agreed, it may change but for the moment it is like that and if it is to stay like that what I say need apply, or else it would be inconsistent with the numbers.

Not necessarily the horesface thing could also be a generic trait of houses of first men decent making it a red herring, so even if it does not change what you say may still not apply.

On 12/6/2017 at 6:35 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

On old nan; at the oldest, how old could she be with her last birth? How old she would be with her first? We don't get an explanation whether Brandon is the oldest sibling or not but his mother is the one dying so pretty certain he is the first born. Since there would be some time before his father marries to get more children this puts nan coming to winterfell in an earlier time. How old would be the oldest serjeant? We see some rather old men fighting but we also have Gulian Swann

Apparently being past forty is an excuse for not fighting even for a high lord.

The bolded part i do not agree with since the Brandon she came for died at they age of three his father would have remarried as soon as possible, so within a year of his sons dead is assume is most likely. 

She came somewhere before 226 going by the current information, it could be an inconsistency but it does not have to be.

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Hey, I believe this is relevant. What Martin says about eyes applies to all characteristics... high cheekbones, hair colour, being tall etcetera... just like in the real world, sharing a trait does not make people ralated. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1428/

  Quote
Question: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. 
GRRM:

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

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9 hours ago, direpupy said:

Not necessarily the horesface thing could also be a generic trait of houses of first men decent making it a red herring, so even if it does not change what you say may still not apply.

The bolded part i do not agree with since the Brandon she came for died at they age of three his father would have remarried as soon as possible, so within a year of his sons dead is assume is most likely. 

She came somewhere before 226 going by the current information, it could be an inconsistency but it does not have to be.

That's what I meant, though not clearly I see now. Sometime after his wife's death so around the time Brandon the babe dies.

 

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Hey, I believe this is relevant. What Martin says about eyes applies to all characteristics... high cheekbones, hair colour, being tall etcetera... just like in the real world, sharing a trait does not make people ralated. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1428/

  Quote
Question: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. 
GRRM:

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Yes I remember this one, it's just that there are very few mentions of a high cheekbone and Valyrians married some other houses so it may have passed around for a few generations, like Sansa carrying Minisa's cheekbones.

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