Family Defining Features - Will No Longer Get Updates

[Ivan Tsarevich]

I have this memory of someone telling some artist to portray Jon Arryn as black haired... yet I can't find it and even if it were true, fan art is hardly canon.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I have this memory of someone telling some artist to portray Jon Arryn as black haired... yet I can't find it and even if it were true, fan art is hardly canon.

I think it was Martin who said he wanted Kit Harrington (and others) to die his hair black for the show. 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it was Martin who said he wanted Kit Harrington (and others) to die his hair black for the show. 

Seeing as you mentioned Harington, I hope we're both talking about dead King's Hand.

As said, I've lost source for this if it ever was credible, yet it keeps coming to mind when I see people suggesting Jon was blonde because Harrold is.

[Corvo the Crow]

I am thinking on grouping the houses by region, and whether they are of first men or andal origin.

Any more ideas on how to improve the thread?

[direpupy]

42 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am thinking on grouping the houses by region, and whether they are of first men or andal origin.

Any more ideas on how to improve the thread?

Sounds good, just one note for Dorne you will have to take the Rhoynar into account somehow.

[Corvo the Crow]

33 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Sounds good, just one note for Dorne you will have to take the Rhoynar into account somehow.

I have splitted Dorne into three parts just because of this

I have also seperated the Dornish Marches

[Corvo the Crow]

I think I have found the eye color of Durrandons; Orys has black eyes so unless Blue eyes of Baratheons were a trait gained later, it must have come from Argella Durrandon.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think I have found the eye color of Durrandons; Orys has black eyes so unless Blue eyes of Baratheons were a trait gained later, it must have come from Argella Durrandon.

Orys Baratheon had black hair and eyes, but his father was Targaryen. So most likely blue eyes of Baratheons are genetic trait, that they got from Targaryens/Valyrians.

Grandson of Orys, Robar Baratheon married with Alyssa Velaryon (after death of her first husband, Aenys I Targaryen (they had six children together). Alyssa herself was half-Targaryen thru her mother).

Daughter of Robar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon, Jocelyn Baratheon married with Aemon Targaryen, who was her nephew. Aemon's parents were brother and sister - Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryens, and Jocelyn Baratheon was their half-sister thru their mother Alyssa Velaryon.

Jocelyn's daughter Rhaenys had typical Valyrian looks. Thus she was blonde and blue-eyed.

Ormund Baratheon married with Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V. Most likely she had the same Valyrian looks, as her brother Jaehaerys II and his sister-wife Shaera.

Orys was half-Targaryen thru his father, so even though he himself probably inherited black eyes from his mother, he was a carrier of blue-color allele. And after him Baratheons intermarried with Valyrians at least three times (Alyssa Velaryon, Aemon Targaryen, Rhaelle Targaryen).

So what is more likely? ->

1. blue eyes of Baratheons were inherited from their four marriages with Valyrians (three marriages and one mistress of Aerion, father of Orys);
2. or that blue eyes were genetic trait of Durrandons. Last and only Durrandon genes were mixed with Baratheon genes, approximately in a year 2BC, when Argella Durrandon married with Orys Baratheon.

It's very unlikely that genes of Durrandons, weren't lost thru those 300+ years.

Could be that Steffon Baratheon and his wife Cassana Estermont, both were carriers of blue-color allele, but they weren't blue-eyed. Though all of their children got from both parents two blue alleles.

There's lots of possibilities, including the one that Durrandons also had blue-eyes. Or 3BB got their blue eyes from their parents, or from four generations of their Valyrian ancestors.

The point is, we can't assume that Durrandons had blue eyes, just because modern Baratheons have blue eyes, while their distant ancestor Orys Baratheon had black.

On 14.12.2017 at 5:40 PM, TsarGrey said:

As said, I've lost source for this if it ever was credible, yet it keeps coming to mind when I see people suggesting Jon was blonde because Harrold is.

This is from Alayne I, TWOW: "Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose."

1. Ser Harrold looks like young Jon Arryn.

2. Harrold is grandson of Jon's sister Alys.

3. Arryns are "considered to come from the oldest and purest line of Andal nobility, which they say reaches back to Andalos and possibly Hugor of the Hill.^[7] "

Other House in 7K, that has mostly Andal ancestors is House Lannister. And all knows Lanisters are blond. So it's a logical assumption that genetic trait of Andals are blond hair and blue or green eyes.

4. Daella Targaryen married with Rodrick Arryn, their only child was Aemma Arryn that married with her cousin Viserys I Targaryen. Their daughter was Rhaenyra Targaryen. "Rhaenyra had her family's Valyrian looks, wearing her silver-gold hair in a long braid in the manner of Aegon I's warrior wife, Visenya".

If Rodrick Arryn had dark hair, he could have passed dark coloring to his granddaughter Rhaenyra. But she had light hair. It doesn't mean, that her grandfather was definitely blond, but possibility that he was blond, is more likely than possibility of him having dark hair.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = most likely Jon Arryn was blond.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Megorova We can't assume Durrandons had blue eyes because Modern Baratheons do but we can assume early Arryns were blue eyed blondes because we know two current ones are as such and Arryns have been intermarrying with First Men houses at least from the third generation of their kings? And this is when it is know Lannisters, a family of FIRST MEN descent that had their BLONDE hair since AGE of HEROES which was thousands of years before ANDAL INVASION?

[Ivan Tsarevich]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

This is from Alayne I, TWOW: "Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose."

1. Ser Harrold looks like young Jon Arryn.

2. Harrold is grandson of Jon's sister Alys.

3. Arryns are "considered to come from the oldest and purest line of Andal nobility, which they say reaches back to Andalos and possibly Hugor of the Hill.^[7] "

Other House in 7K, that has mostly Andal ancestors is House Lannister. And all knows Lanisters are blond. So it's a logical assumption that genetic trait of Andals are blond hair and blue or green eyes.

4. Daella Targaryen married with Rodrick Arryn, their only child was Aemma Arryn that married with her cousin Viserys I Targaryen. Their daughter was Rhaenyra Targaryen. "Rhaenyra had her family's Valyrian looks, wearing her silver-gold hair in a long braid in the manner of Aegon I's warrior wife, Visenya".

If Rodrick Arryn had dark hair, he could have passed dark coloring to his granddaughter Rhaenyra. But she had light hair. It doesn't mean, that her grandfather was definitely blond, but possibility that he was blond, is more likely than possibility of him having dark hair.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = most likely Jon Arryn was blond.

Most likely, yes. For certainty, no. 'Look' does not necessarily mean hair color, it can mean much else, shape of face, cheekbones, the way one carries themselves, shape of eyes, brows, jaw, how they look when they brush their hair back... I've heard a comment in real life that I resemble my uncle when I do that last one. As it happens, he's dark and I blonde. Aquiline nose, for example, sounds very Arrynish in literary setting.

All in all, this is not a hill I care to die on. The subject of a thread is to establish hereditary traits, isn't it? And given I have misgiving of one of the suppositions established here, I brought it up. Take it, leave it, whatever.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

Most likely, yes. For certainty, no. 'Look' does not necessarily mean hair color, it can mean much else, shape of face, cheekbones, the way one carries themselves, shape of eyes, brows, jaw, how they look when they brush their hair back... I've heard a comment in real life that I resemble my uncle when I do that last one. As it happens, he's dark and I blonde. Aquiline nose, for example, sounds very Arrynish in literary setting.

All in all, this is not a hill I care to die on. The subject of a thread is to establish hereditary traits, isn't it? And given I have misgiving of one of the suppositions established here, I brought it up. Take it, leave it, whatever.

Now that you bring this, I did a search and Jon is never mentioned to have blonde hair, only Harrold's look. Which we aren't given any specifics.

[Corvo the Crow]

Divided into regions and grouped by origins.

[Corvo the Crow]

Could lighter hair colors be a Hightower trait?

Lynesse had Blonde hair, Alerie has silver hair (can't be due to age with her not being old). Ceryse seems to have light hair color from the World Book.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Could lighter hair colors be a Hightower trait?

Lynesse had Blonde hair, Alerie has silver hair (can't be due to age with her not being old). Ceryse seems to have light hair color from the World Book.

Alicent Hightower appears to be dark-haired.

[Corvo the Crow]

Added Strongs, Karstarks and Redwynes

[direpupy]

@Corvo the Crow you placed the Osgreys under first men origin, but as i recall we are never told if the are first men or andal in origin, so i am wondering why you put them there? did i miss something?

[Corvo the Crow]

51 minutes ago, direpupy said:

@Corvo the Crow you placed the Osgreys under first men origin, but as i recall we are never told if the are first men or andal in origin, so i am wondering why you put them there? did i miss something?

No.

Quote

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights.

I mistook the Conquest as Andal invasion in this quote so that's how they became First Men. They will be under Unknown Origins now.

Also added Inchfields thanks to your correction.

[direpupy]

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No.

I mistook the Conquest as Andal invasion in this quote so that's how they became First Men. They will be under Unknown Origins now.

Also added Inchfields thanks to your correction.

Its nice to see a growing list. 

[Corvo the Crow]

45 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Its nice to see a growing list. 

Thanks!  Also added Fossoways now. And Caswells! And updated Tyrells.

[Corvo the Crow]

Updated Florents for their possible eye color.