Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Why did The Hound stop The Mountain from killing Loras?

53 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Or it could just be that the Hound can't resist being chivalrous and knightly even though he doesn't believe in being a knight

I very much like this idea. 

20 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It's also no coincidence that the night before Sansa is wearing a green dress and the next day he appears wearing an "olive- green cloak."  Olive branches being symbolic of peace is pretty appropriate since Sandor restores peace from Gregor's violence.         

Nice! I didn't even think of this. Love it! 

18 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Sandor is only man who have potential to beat Mountain. If he doesn't Robert will ask why.

This doesn't ring very true to me. Sandor couldn't be blamed for not stopping his brother. It's very likely Robert wouldn't have known if Sandor was even close enough to be of assistance let alone be in trouble for not doing it. Besides that maybe Sandor is the only one that has the potential to beat Gregor alone but the tourney is full of knights that together could have beat him easily. 

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe Sandor is a good guy. Much better than the average anyway. But he has to do awful things in the service of Joffrey or Tywin. Here he had the opportunity of a good action, of alleviating his conscience. At the expense of his hated brother. So why he did it IMO.

This is my take on him also. I love the hound tbh. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

But the, why didn't Sandor kill Gregor? He didn't need to, in order to prove he could beat Gregor any time he wanted, matching every blow, parrying every sword strike, not going for the obvious target, Gregor's head. Sandor may actually have gotten around to killing his brother, had the fight gone on long enough. But as it was, he humiliated Gregor in front of much of King's Landing, the court, and the lords, ladies, and knights from ALL OVER WESTEROS. A pretty piece of work

This. So much. I think this is my favorite reason. 

Thank you all very much for your replies! 

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“I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey’s sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother’s blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for … and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear" Brienne 6 feast

He lives to kill his brother

“Done,” Lord Renly shouted back. “The Hound has a hungry look about him this morning.”

Hungry to beat his brother, and that's what he did, maybe he knew it would be his only chance to beat his brother for the foreseeable future.  Gregor stays away from court and Joffs sworn sword does not travel to tourneys at will.

 

“Did you think Joff was going to take you himself?” He laughed. He had a laugh like the snarling of dogs in a pit. “Small chance of that.” He pulled her unresisting to her feet. “Come, you’re not the only one needs sleep. I’ve drunk too much, and I may need to kill my brother tomorrow.” He laughed again. Sansa 2 GoT

May need is a strange term, no doubt he is driven to kill him, and will kill him in his mind at some point.  The question is when and why not at the tourney.  Might kill would convey intent; may need suggests it is dependent on some external factor; probably Gregors reaction to being beaten by his younger brother the pup.

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20 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

“I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey’s sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother’s blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for … and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear" Brienne 6 feast

He lives to kill his brother

“Done,” Lord Renly shouted back. “The Hound has a hungry look about him this morning.”

Hungry to beat his brother, and that's what he did, maybe he knew it would be his only chance to beat his brother for the foreseeable future.  Gregor stays away from court and Joffs sworn sword does not travel to tourneys at will.

 

“Did you think Joff was going to take you himself?” He laughed. He had a laugh like the snarling of dogs in a pit. “Small chance of that.” He pulled her unresisting to her feet. “Come, you’re not the only one needs sleep. I’ve drunk too much, and I may need to kill my brother tomorrow.” He laughed again. Sansa 2 GoT

May need is a strange term, no doubt he is driven to kill him, and will kill him in his mind at some point.  The question is when and why not at the tourney.  Might kill would convey intent; may need suggests it is dependent on some external factor; probably Gregors reaction to being beaten by his younger brother the pup.

Yes good catch. Could the Hound have known what Loras was going to do? Probably not but interesting anyway. 

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I think that GRRM is trying to show that fundamentally Sandor is not a bad man, but is the product of his era and upbringing.

We see him first loyal to Joffrey, but in the way of  all soldiers- he is paid to be loyal and joffrey is his Lord etc (or Tywins grandson)

However for some reason he changed -  or more precisely became aware of who he was and would become.

I think it was actually the slaying of Micah that started the change - we are told his eyes glistened and we sorta assume it is with malice but I think it was tears. After all he WAS exonerated in the trial by battle. Legally he was in the right. He was following orders to capture and kill a fugitive who had laid a hand upon his master.

The fact that it was a lie  was irrelevant to him as he was doing his duty. The fact that it was in fact a 10 year old boy disturbed him, just as we know today soldiers ordered to kill children via guns, bombs, drones etc often suffer PTSD.

Then he falls head over heels for Sansa - someone sweet and mild who stands up for him and says Gregor is no knight. 

He hates and despises his brother in any case. I think he somehow wants do do something right - to be a hero in the eyes of Sansa,

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8 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Then he falls head over heels for Sansa

Many have said this. How then, "He did not love, nor was he loved himself"?

Note: I really do not want to re-start the infinite "SanSan" discussion. But it's worth mentioning, because the Elder Brother (and also Thoros of Myr) seemed to have the most accurate reads on Sandor Clegane. If the Elder Brother asserts that Sandor "did not love", we can believe it. And "nor was he loved himself" means Sandor didn't think there was anyone who loved him. Not Sansa. Nor Arya. Nobody.

Edited by zandru

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16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This doesn't ring very true to me. Sandor couldn't be blamed for not stopping his brother. It's very likely Robert wouldn't have known if Sandor was even close enough to be of assistance let alone be in trouble for not doing it. Besides that maybe Sandor is the only one that has the potential to beat Gregor alone but the tourney is full of knights that together could have beat him easily. 

But the first man who comes to mind is Sandor.

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

Many have said this. How then, "He did not love, nor was he loved himself"?

Note: I really do not want to re-start the infinite "SanSan" discussion. But it's worth mentioning, because the Elder Brother (and also Thoros of Myr) seemed to have the most accurate reads on Sandor Clegane. If the Elder Brother asserts that Sandor "did not love", we can believe it. And "nor was he loved himself" means Sandor didn't think there was anyone who loved him. Not Sansa. Nor Arya. Nobody.

It's hard to respond to a post on the Sandor/Sansa dynamic without seeming to discuss SanSan.

Anyway - Elder Brother only knows stuff that's common knowledge and stuff that Sandor tells him. The common knowledge is that the Hound doesn't have love affairs - obviously. Sandor's got no reason to think either Arya or Sansa loves him - he treated them pretty roughly. That only leaves his own feelings, which he must find difficult to explain even to himself. It's not SanSan romance - he was her defender long before he finally noticed she was growing into a beauty. (Personally, I think he got caught up in something of a backlash from the severed warg bond when Lady died, and the compulsion to defend Sansa starts there.)

Even without romance, he is head over heels, though. He falls into Sansa's orbit, and suddenly finds himself acting like a knight in a song. He fights gallantly in the tourney. He gallantly keeps her covered when creep Joffrey wants her dragged out of bed. He gallantly kneels to wipe the blood off her lip, gallantly rescues her from a mob, gallantly gives his own cloak to hide her nakedness. He even joins the Kingsguard, which is pretty much the heartland of everything he despises about knights.

He's still the Hound, so it's not pretty, but he perseveres.

Actually, it's funny. In his head, he's still the badass Hound, giving Sansa a sharp lesson in harsh realities, but at the same time all this Aemon the Dragonknight stuff keeps happening to him. He must think he's going mad.

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40 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

ctually, it's funny. In his head, he's still the badass Hound, giving Sansa a sharp lesson in harsh realities, but at the same time all this Aemon the Dragonknight stuff keeps happening to him. He must think he's going mad.

“I was younger than you, six, maybe seven. A woodcarver set up shop in the village under my father’s keep, and to buy favor he sent us gifts. The old man made marvelous toys. I don’t remember what I got, but it was Gregor’s gift I wanted. A wooden knight, all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with strings, so you could make him fight. Gregor is five years older than me, the toy was nothing to him, he was already a squire, near six foot tall and muscled like an ox. So I took his knight, but there was no joy to it, I tell you. I was scared all the while, and true enough, he found me.

He wants to be a knight

“My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Arise, Ser Gregor.’”

But Gregor not only burnt his face he stole his childish dream; and showed him the truth behinde the tails.  A lesson he tries to teach Sansa.  He also tried to give her insight into Joffreys true nature in the same chapter.

 

So it's not what Gregor did he hates but what he stole from him, his innocence and his dreams

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Sandor is no fool, he knew exactly what he was doing saving Mace Tyrell's favorite son. If things ever went bad for him with the Lannisters he'd have an in with the second richest House in Westeros. Taking into account that he had been harassing Joff's future wife just days prior it was a smart move. Sandor was looking out for his coin purse's future just like when he nabbed Arya.

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48 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Sandor is no fool, he knew exactly what he was doing saving Mace Tyrell's favorite son. If things ever went bad for him with the Lannisters he'd have an in with the second richest House in Westeros. Taking into account that he had been harassing Joff's future wife just days prior it was a smart move. Sandor was looking out for his coin purse's future just like when he nabbed Arya.

That's a pretty good suggestion. And, as you suggest, it fits with him hoping to use Arya to earn his way into Robb's service. 

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21 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's a pretty good suggestion. And, as you suggest, it fits with him hoping to use Arya to earn his way into Robb's service. 

Good catch! I think Sandor had also hoped to trade in Sansa to Robb in order to take service with the Young Wolf. That's some of the reason behind him apparently aimlessly wandering the Riverlands*: without Sansa, Robb's forces would kill him on sight. Arya's sudden appearance gave him a second chance.

--------

* Plus, obviously, severe PTSD.

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On 10/12/2017 at 3:29 PM, zandru said:

Good catch!

Do you know who Ricky Gervais is?  The Office thing that started in the UK and worked its way to US. I’m using his voice. There haven’t been any good catches since 2012. This is 2017.

On 10/12/2017 at 3:29 PM, zandru said:

I think Sandor had also hoped to trade in Sansa to Robb in order to take service with the Young Wolf. That's some of the reason behind him apparently aimlessly wandering the Riverlands*: without Sansa, Robb's forces would kill him on sight. Arya's sudden appearance gave him a second chance.

I got nuttin'.

Edited by Clegane'sPup
corrected a rather huge spelling mistake

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

There haven’t been any good catches since 2012. This is 2017.

:lmao:

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6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Sandor is no fool, he knew exactly what he was doing saving Mace Tyrell's favorite son. If things ever went bad for him with the Lannisters he'd have an in with the second richest House in Westeros. Taking into account that he had been harassing Joff's future wife just days prior it was a smart move. Sandor was looking out for his coin purse's future just like when he nabbed Arya.

He is no fool but he didn't seem overly concerned with who he would work for if things went south for him with the Lannisters. In fact when things do go south for him & he leaves he doesn't seek out any other rich houses to serve. I also don't think he was concerned with "harassing" Joff's future wife either. He knows who & what Joff & the rest of the Lannisters are. I don't think Joff or Cersei would have put him out of their service for what he said to Sansa. Maybe the "don't tell anyone I said that or I'll kill you part" but even that I think would have been over looked. 

Not to say he doesn't look to fill his coin purse - he does. But we don't have any evidence that he is motivated by ensuring he has a job after the Lannisters before or after this that I'm aware of. Surely if this was his motive we would have seen The Hound doing things to have an "in" with a few other houses as well right? 

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Most and Least Knightly Acts in ASOIAF.

The title of the thread says it all. 

My most knightly act of the series is an ironic choice because the deed is done by Brienne of Tarth, who honored her vow to protect the weak, by defending the orphans from some of Westero's worst monsters. Compare her act to the Knight of Saltpans who sat in his castle, as "The Hound" ravages the town. Brienne is the definition of a knight. A close second is a minor, yet gallant act. During the wedding between Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister, Ser Garland is one of the few people who is actually nice to Sansa, and his dance with the terrified, young maid is the highlight of her night. Ser Garland is similarly kind to Tyrion, and goes so far to defend him in front of the Incest King.

My least knightly act of the series, would probably be Ser Gregor's brutal campaign throughout the Riverlands, which featured such atrocities as rape, torture, and forced auto-cannibalism. Compare this with Ser Arthur's Dayne campaign throughout the Kingswood.

I was tempted to list Ser Quincy Cox as least cowardly act, and while cowardice is generally a bad trait for a knight, sadism is much worse. One of my favorite themes in ASOIAF is how many of the characters who exhibit knightly qualities are not actually knights. Examples of this are Brienne of Tarth, Sandor Clegane, and "Ser" Duncan the Tall. 

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14 minutes ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Most and Least Knightly Acts in ASOIAF.

The title of the thread says it all. 

My most knightly act of the series is an ironic choice because the deed is done by Brienne of Tarth, who honored her vow to protect the weak, by defending the orphans from some of Westero's worst monsters. Compare her act to the Knight of Saltpans who sat in his castle, as "The Hound" ravages the town. Brienne is the definition of a knight. A close second is a minor, yet gallant act. During the wedding between Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister, Ser Garland is one of the few people who is actually nice to Sansa, and his dance with the terrified, young maid is the highlight of her night. Ser Garland is similarly kind to Tyrion, and goes so far to defend him in front of the Incest King.

My least knightly act of the series, would probably be Ser Gregor's brutal campaign throughout the Riverlands, which featured such atrocities as rape, torture, and forced auto-cannibalism. Compare this with Ser Arthur's Dayne campaign throughout the Kingswood.

I was tempted to list Ser Quincy Cox as least cowardly act, and while cowardice is generally a bad trait for a knight, sadism is much worse. One of my favorite themes in ASOIAF is how many of the characters who exhibit knightly qualities are not actually knights. Examples of this are Brienne of Tarth, Sandor Clegane, and "Ser" Duncan the Tall. 

Very nice. But I think you have posted in the wrong thread. 

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12 hours ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Most and Least Knightly Acts in ASOIAF.

Nice idea! How about you start a new thread with this topic, as Lyanna suggests?

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18 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not to say he doesn't look to fill his coin purse - he does. But we don't have any evidence that he is motivated by ensuring he has a job after the Lannisters before or after this that I'm aware of. Surely if this was his motive we would have seen The Hound doing things to have an "in" with a few other houses as well right?

There is nothing to suggest he was actively looking for another position with another liege or had even considered it.  Why?  He's got a pretty privileged position with the Lannisters.  They give him a lot of latitude.  He's not required to swear vows, even to the kingsguard, which has never happened before.  His loyalty is just that undoubted.  He's probably compensated pretty well for his service anyway.  It appears that after his father died and Sandor left home, Tywin took him into his service, trained him and gave him everything he has.  When they call him the Hound for his loyalty, I don't think that's inaccurate at all.  I think Sandor was up until near the very end truly loyal to the Lannisters.  They essentially took him in when Gregor would have surely killed him when he was a boy.  They may not be good people, but this was a hell of a lot better than his own family life.  He was the go-to guy for Cersei when she wanted to have Mycah killed and he delivered.  He doesn't actually leave Lannister service until Tyrion publically (and unjustifiably) implies he's turned craven effectively ending his military career and his reputation as a commander.  He may have begun to really dislike Joffrey, but that's not the reason he left.  Until Sansa, there's nothing to suggest he cares that much about how the Lannisters treat people that it would motivate him enough to consider leaving -- and even then it takes him snapping at the Blackwater.     

As for monetary gain, we actually have observations that dispute he is motivated by material wealth.  He's noted to not really wear any ornamentation except his hound's head helm.  His armor and clothing certainly aren't flashy like other knights.  It's all very plain and practical.  When he jousts against Renly in the Hand's tournament, the golden antler snaps off his helm and Renly gives it to him.  Sandor just tosses it into the crowd, indicating it holds no value for him.  Yes he won the 40,000 dragons at the tourney, but we need to think about why he won.  Loras concedes victory to him and Ned says for the first time in [Sandor's] life he seems to have the love of the commons.  The BwB for sure is planning on selling Arya back to her family, because they are seeking monetary reward.  THey "forage" Sandor's gold, taking the tangible reminder of a day where he actually got a taste of what it's like to be a hero.  It's not the money, it's what it represents.  So he takes Arya from them.  Yes, he talks about being "rewarded."  However, he reveals what he's truly hoping for is to join Robb, raise his station to a lordship, and probably march on KL.  Hmmmmm... he's only expressed disdain for honors and lordships before.  Never has expressed any higher ambition before.  Who did he leave behind in KL after botching things up?  Who's the only person whose opinion of him even remotely mattered?  And even then this whole plan of bringing Arya to her family is a big gamble with slightly better odds of not being immediately killed than say going to Stannis.             

Not referring to you specifically @Lyanna<3Rhaegar now, just speaking in general... I think because we learn at the tourney that there's more to Sandor than the guy who killed Mycah, many readers ascribe to him more righteousness and virtue than he actually has demonstrated at this early point in the story.  It's a little bit of jumping the gun, because his character has only shown that he's capable of better, not that he's really starting to actively change.  He's not an evil monster, but he's still not a truly good guy yet.  He's still deeply cynical (flirting with nihilism) and he does not allow himself to empathize with 99% of people.  He does have a conscience (unlike Gregor), he just doesn't always listen to it.  To keep himself safe from being a vulnerable victim, he actively tries to disassociate himself from "the weak."  Calls them "meat" and he is "the butcher."  Defense mechanism or not, the Hound's need for feeling safe and strong is certainly not more important than the lives of people he's harmed.  I firmly disagree with characterizing him as simply a grumpy asshole with a heart of gold.  I think we need to see what a dark, low place he was in at the beginning to fully appreciate his journey to the QI and what a remarkable amount of change he's undergone.                 

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think we need to see what a dark, low place he was in at the beginning to fully appreciate his journey to the QI and what a remarkable amount of change he's undergone.                 

This was a great analysis. Thanks!

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3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There is nothing to suggest he was actively looking for another position with another liege or had even considered it.  Why?  He's got a pretty privileged position with the Lannisters.  They give him a lot of latitude.  He's not required to swear vows, even to the kingsguard, which has never happened before.  His loyalty is just that undoubted.  He's probably compensated pretty well for his service anyway.  It appears that after his father died and Sandor left home, Tywin took him into his service, trained him and gave him everything he has.  When they call him the Hound for his loyalty, I don't think that's inaccurate at all.  I think Sandor was up until near the very end truly loyal to the Lannisters.  They essentially took him in when Gregor would have surely killed him when he was a boy.  They may not be good people, but this was a hell of a lot better than his own family life.  He was the go-to guy for Cersei when she wanted to have Mycah killed and he delivered.  He doesn't actually leave Lannister service until Tyrion publically (and unjustifiably) implies he's turned craven effectively ending his military career and his reputation as a commander.  He may have begun to really dislike Joffrey, but that's not the reason he left.  Until Sansa, there's nothing to suggest he cares that much about how the Lannisters treat people that it would motivate him enough to consider leaving -- and even then it takes him snapping at the Blackwater.     

As for monetary gain, we actually have observations that dispute he is motivated by material wealth.  He's noted to not really wear any ornamentation except his hound's head helm.  His armor and clothing certainly aren't flashy like other knights.  It's all very plain and practical.  When he jousts against Renly in the Hand's tournament, the golden antler snaps off his helm and Renly gives it to him.  Sandor just tosses it into the crowd, indicating it holds no value for him.  Yes he won the 40,000 dragons at the tourney, but we need to think about why he won.  Loras concedes victory to him and Ned says for the first time in [Sandor's] life he seems to have the love of the commons.  The BwB for sure is planning on selling Arya back to her family, because they are seeking monetary reward.  THey "forage" Sandor's gold, taking the tangible reminder of a day where he actually got a taste of what it's like to be a hero.  It's not the money, it's what it represents.  So he takes Arya from them.  Yes, he talks about being "rewarded."  However, he reveals what he's truly hoping for is to join Robb, raise his station to a lordship, and probably march on KL.  Hmmmmm... he's only expressed disdain for honors and lordships before.  Never has expressed any higher ambition before.  Who did he leave behind in KL after botching things up?  Who's the only person whose opinion of him even remotely mattered?  And even then this whole plan of bringing Arya to her family is a big gamble with slightly better odds of not being immediately killed than say going to Stannis.             

Not referring to you specifically @Lyanna<3Rhaegar now, just speaking in general... I think because we learn at the tourney that there's more to Sandor than the guy who killed Mycah, many readers ascribe to him more righteousness and virtue than he actually has demonstrated at this early point in the story.  It's a little bit of jumping the gun, because his character has only shown that he's capable of better, not that he's really starting to actively change.  He's not an evil monster, but he's still not a truly good guy yet.  He's still deeply cynical (flirting with nihilism) and he does not allow himself to empathize with 99% of people.  He does have a conscience (unlike Gregor), he just doesn't always listen to it.  To keep himself safe from being a vulnerable victim, he actively tries to disassociate himself from "the weak."  Calls them "meat" and he is "the butcher."  Defense mechanism or not, the Hound's need for feeling safe and strong is certainly not more important than the lives of people he's harmed.  I firmly disagree with characterizing him as simply a grumpy asshole with a heart of gold.  I think we need to see what a dark, low place he was in at the beginning to fully appreciate his journey to the QI and what a remarkable amount of change he's undergone.                 

I agree fully. I was replying to a post that suggested the Hound didn't let Gregor kill Loras because he knew then he would have had another rich house he could work for. I disagreed. 

Regarding him wanting to fill his purse: I think he would fill his coin purse where & when he could. Not that he is motivated by money or riches. 

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