Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Why did The Hound stop The Mountain from killing Loras?

60 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think we need to see what a dark, low place he was in at the beginning to fully appreciate his journey to the QI

Each time I read this, I spend more time imagining the Hound competing with Alan Davies to answer Stephen Fry's trick questions before recognizing that you mean the Quiet Isle. I know that's ridiculous. (Obviously, the Hound was waiting for Sandi to take over the show from Stephen, because that fits in with his growth through the women in his life.) But I can't stop thinking it.

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:02 PM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

... But Gregor not only burnt his face he stole his childish dream; and showed him the truth behinde the tails.  A lesson he tries to teach Sansa.  He also tried to give her insight into Joffreys true nature in the same chapter.

So it's not what Gregor did he hates but what he stole from him, his innocence and his dreams

 

19 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

... It's a little bit of jumping the gun, because his character has only shown that he's capable of better, not that he's really starting to actively change.  He's not an evil monster, but he's still not a truly good guy yet.  He's still deeply cynical (flirting with nihilism) and he does not allow himself to empathize with 99% of people.  He does have a conscience (unlike Gregor), he just doesn't always listen to it.  To keep himself safe from being a vulnerable victim, he actively tries to disassociate himself from "the weak."  Calls them "meat" and he is "the butcher."  Defense mechanism or not, the Hound's need for feeling safe and strong is certainly not more important than the lives of people he's harmed.  I firmly disagree with characterizing him as simply a grumpy asshole with a heart of gold.  I think we need to see what a dark, low place he was in at the beginning to fully appreciate his journey to the QI and what a remarkable amount of change he's undergone.                 

I can't help agreeing with each of these. He still remembers his dreams, his heart of gold, but he believes that was childish fantasy, and the world truly is an evil place where the strong devour the weak. Gregor taught the lesson to Sandor, and Sandor, right to the end, was still trying to teach that lesson to Ned Stark's little daughters. A crazily dark lesson.

He hates knighthood intensely, and I can only think of two reasons for that: 1) the hypocrisy of swearing oaths of chivalry you don't mean to keep; and 2) his standards of knighthood are still rocket high, impossibly high - so all real knights look like massive failures to him. (Right in step with Sansa on this one.)

Sansa tried to compliment him on a 'gallant' performance in day one of the tourney, but it was just empty words from her, she really had no idea; in fact we're told his style was 'ferocious'. The next day he shows her what 'gallant' looks like, and he can do that because he knows, deep down, how a 'true knight' acts. Even if he doesn't believe in true knights.

Edited by Springwatch

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Sandor probably felt he was, in his own way, protecting Gregor. If the Mountain had killed the Knight of Flowers in front of half the realm there's a good chance someone would have demanded his execution.

King Robert's highly popular younger brother was betrothed to Loras's sister after all.

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa tried to compliment him on a 'gallant' performance in day one of the tourney, but it was just empty words from her, she really had no idea; in fact we're told his style was 'ferocious'. The next day he shows her what 'gallant' looks like, and he can do that because he knows, deep down, how a 'true knight' acts. Even if he doesn't believe in true knights.

I agree! I'd also like to add that Sandor wasn't trying to show off as a "gallant" knight because he was "head over heels in love" with Sansa - the man is neither a pedophile nor a raper, and he's seen that she either runs or cries whenever she looks at him. It's more like to show her the contrast between her beloved perfect Knight of Flowers, the very soul of "gallantry" who absently threw her a rose, and who cheated to win by bollixing his opponent's horse, and a damned dog who was nonetheless brave and capable.

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The Hound as I read the character is a realist and a cynic. A cynic is a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self-interest rather than acting for honorable or unselfish reasons.

To the SanSan wishful romantic shippers I say, no. Sansa is 12 (?) years old. Sandor is approximately 29-30 years of age. He knows the way of the Lannister’s and the aristocracy (the highest class in certain societies, especially those holding hereditary titles or offices) since he is Joffrey’s dog and is privy to some of their daily activities.

The Hound is a fearsome spectacle to behold. He did not get the rep by being kind and gentle. He is a warrior. A killing machine. Which serves his purpose to survive. The common/small folk fear him.

I do see Sandor having a weak spot for small and helpless individuals, as in Tyrion, Sansa and Arya. Else he would not warn them of the perils that they may face.

To put my words into a more modern thought--- Gregor is the bully, Sandor is not. Sandor survived his childhood ordeal and he can if he wants to, warn people of the harm that may come their way. That is what he does with the Stark girls and Tyrion.

I once typed that if Martin kills off Ghost I would throw the book out the door. If Martin has Sandor die saving loose lip Sansa I will burn the book. 

Let Sansa continue to dream her knight and lady dreams. Lady Lannister is after all moving on learning how to use her female 12-13 year old wiles to hook Harry per LF's request.

As I typed earlier in this thread I think the Hound stepped in to aid Loras because a tourney joust is not a killing field. Through trickery Loras was able to unseat the Mountain. When Gregor was unhorsed he called for his sword. Sandor seems to have come to the aid of a 16-17 year old. Sandor couldn't do anything about the Mountain thrusting a lance through a jousting novice's throat.

Very important in the Gregor Sandor sword fight is that Sandor had opportunity to slice Gregor’s head in half. He didn’t do it.

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

To the SanSan wishful romantic shippers I say, no. Sansa is 12 (?) years old. Sandor is approximately 29-30 years of age.

In Game of Thrones, Sansa is 10 and Sandor 27, give or take a year. By the end of aDwD, Sansa is 14 or close to it, which would make Sandor (if alive, and we pretty much know he is) about 31. Which would make any "romantic" feelings on Sandor's part in the first book even less likely.

You make a great point about Sandor tending to try and help the small and weak. Ned Stark had heard something about a Clegane sister, who apparently disappeared or at least was never heard from again: it seems highly likely that Gregor killed her and Sandor saw it, but since he was 12 or younger, was unable to save her. That, and himself, when he was small and weak, being victimized by Gregor, could cause a man to say "never again" to that sort of thing.

Of course, the really bad men would tell themselves "Yeah! That's what we do!"H

I hear ya on this one!!

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I once typed that if Martin kills off Ghost I would throw the book out the door. If Martin has Sandor die saving loose lip Sansa I will burn the book. 

Edited by zandru

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I personally think he didn't want to be witness to his brother's brutality once more. remember the night before when he escorts Sansa? Sandor is sort of shaken at what happened to that boy from the Vale because Gregor killed him on purpose not by accident. he'd probably do the same to Loras.

 

There's also perhaps the possibility that Sansa comfort and understanding got through him and he decided to act valiantly.

 

And some may even say he wanted to kill his brother on his own.

 

I think all of those factors are pretty valid combined. While Sandor can be brutal himself when he has an order (Mycah for example) I don't think he truly finds pleasure in killing like Gregor and doesn't kill random people for the fun of it. And perhaps Sansa's words reached him and he decided to stand up to Gregor. And I think that's why his goal is to kill him (or so he says) as in to stand up. it's funny that prior to that Sandor never looked for an opportunity to kill him and even when he had it and might even have been justified to do so, he didn't take it.

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1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

And perhaps Sansa's words reached him and he decided to stand up to Gregor.

Sansa's empty words had little, if anything to do with Sandor "standing up" to Gregor. Sandor had been training hard in preparation for the tourney, knowing Gregor would be competing. He'd fought exceptionally well, making it into the top four, with the hopes of taking on Gregor - if that's not "standing up", I don't know what is. Plus, he laughingly told Sansa he might "need to kill his brother" on the morrow. So the confrontation had been anticipated, planned, and prepared for as soon as the date of the Hand's Tourney was announced. If Sandor didn't go face to face with Gregor in the joust, he could always take him in the melee. (Of course, by the melee, Gregor had gone.)

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

Sandor is sort of shaken at what happened to that boy from the Vale because Gregor killed him on purpose not by accident. he'd probably do the same to Loras.

Great observation! Sandor seemed enraged by what had happened, but he generally uses anger to cover for his other emotions. In this case, anger that such an undertrained, inexperienced, young boy was allowed to go up against a brutal, hardened behemoth, without so much as assistance in arming himself.

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The below is the Hound vs Jaime in the tourney joust.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII      Sandor Clegane dropped his visor with an audible clang and took up his position. Ser Jaime tossed a kiss to some woman in the commons, gently lowered his visor, and rode to the end of the lists. Both men couched their lances.

The Hound leaned forward as he rode, his lance rock steady, but Jaime shifted his seat deftly in the instant before impact. Clegane's point was turned harmlessly against the golden shield with the lion blazon, while his own hit square. Wood shattered, and the Hound reeled, fighting to keep his seat.

The Hound just managed to stay in his saddle. He jerked his mount around hard and rode back to the lists for the second pass. Jaime Lannister tossed down his broken lance and snatched up a fresh one, jesting with his squire. The Hound spurred forward at a hard gallop. Lannister rode to meet him. This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented.

 

Compare the above to the below.

It appears to me that yes the participants want to win. They are also there for money and accolades. A tourney joust is for entertainment not a fight to the death. Actually, I like to think that Loras shite his britches or is that armor. Later in the story Brienne whooped up on the little arse.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII     It all happened so fast. The Knight of Flowers was shouting for his own sword as Ser Gregor knocked his squire aside and made a grab for the reins of his horse. The mare scented blood and reared. Loras Tyrell kept his seat, but barely. Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage two-handed blow that took the boy in the chest and knocked him from the saddle. The courser dashed away in panic as Ser Loras lay stunned in the dirt.

But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, "Leave him be," and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy.    The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety.

Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound's-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face.

 

There you have it. Gregor aimed savage blows at the hound’s head helmet. Yet not once did Sandor aim for Gregor’s unprotected head.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Gregor aimed savage blows at the hound’s head helmet. Yet not once did Sandor aim for Gregor’s unprotected head.

Sandor's sword goes where Sandor wants it to go.

6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it

And Sandor's strength is now a match for his older, huger brother. No wonder Gregor left the tourney, mad.

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18 hours ago, zandru said:

Sandor's sword goes where Sandor wants it to go.

What I was trying to bring to light is that Sandor had the opportunity to kill Gregor. He didn't do it. Why didn't he do it? Sandor stepped into a situation where Gregor was going to kill Loras. Gregor turned his rage upon Sandor. Sandor deflected Gregor's blows. Sandor had opportunity to kill Gregor, yet he did not.

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What I was trying to bring to light is that Sandor had the opportunity to kill Gregor. He didn't do it. Why didn't he do it? Sandor stepped into a situation where Gregor was going to kill Loras. Gregor turned his rage upon Sandor. Sandor deflected Gregor's blows. Sandor had opportunity to kill Gregor, yet he did not.

It might be interesting to consider this question alongside the question of why Arya didn't kill Sandor when he lay gravely wounded after their fight at the inn at the crossroads. He had been on her prayer list, he was asking her to kill him and he was suffering and helpless. Yet she brought him water (leaking out of the eyes of his dog's head-shaped helmet) and then left him alive.

Dicussion on this and on another thread led me to start looking at helmets. In this discussion, people have noted that Gregor was vulnerable without his helmet, but The Hound didn't take advantage of that vulnerability. I suspect there is a pattern to helmets - on, off, half helms, broken helmets, buckets used for helmets. Maybe a look at the helmets in the Hand's tourney will help us to understand the dynamic between Sandor and Gregor. We learn later that Gregor, when he becomes Ser Robert Strong, has lost his head and never removes his helmet. The Hound loses his helmet and it is picked up by Rorge and then Lem Lemoncloak.

Here is a helmet scene featuring The Hound at the Battle of the Blackwater:

"No." A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound's old burn scars, masking half his face. (ACoK, Tyrion XIII)

In that scene, removing his helmet causes blood to hide his scars. Does this represent a rebirth for Sandor?

Another thought about why Sandor might have refrained from going in for the kill against Gregor: maybe the Hound somehow knew that beheading Gregor would be useless because he would go on to live as a dead guy, as he does after Qyburn messes with him.

There's something about the marionette that belongs to Gregor but which is borrowed by Sandor. Sandor said it was marvelous because, "You could make him fight." Maybe Sandor realized that Gregor's strings were being pulled by someone else; that killing him would be like destroying a wooden soldier.

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12 minutes ago, Seams said:

It might be interesting to consider this question alongside the question of why Arya didn't kill Sandor when he lay gravely wounded after their fight at the inn at the crossroads. He had been on her prayer list, he was asking her to kill him and he was suffering and helpless. Yet she brought him water (leaking out of the eyes of his dog's head-shaped helmet) and then left him alive.

Dicussion on this and on another thread led me to start looking at helmets. In this discussion, people have noted that Gregor was vulnerable without his helmet, but The Hound didn't take advantage of that vulnerability. I suspect there is a pattern to helmets - on, off, half helms, broken helmets, buckets used for helmets. Maybe a look at the helmets in the Hand's tourney will help us to understand the dynamic between Sandor and Gregor. We learn later that Gregor, when he becomes Ser Robert Strong, has lost his head and never removes his helmet. The Hound loses his helmet and it is picked up by Rorge and then Lem Lemoncloak.

Here is a helmet scene featuring The Hound at the Battle of the Blackwater:

"No." A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound's old burn scars, masking half his face. (ACoK, Tyrion XIII)

In that scene, removing his helmet causes blood to hide his scars. Does this represent a rebirth for Sandor?

Another thought about why Sandor might have refrained from going in for the kill against Gregor: maybe the Hound somehow knew that beheading Gregor would be useless because he would go on to live as a dead guy, as he does after Qyburn messes with him.

There's something about the marionette that belongs to Gregor but which is borrowed by Sandor. Sandor said it was marvelous because, "You could make him fight." Maybe Sandor realized that Gregor's strings were being pulled by someone else; that killing him would be like destroying a wooden soldier.

I don't know about Helmets but I have mixed feelings on why Arya left the Hound alive. On one hand I feel like maybe she couldn't bring herself to do it, she hated him for Mycah & had him on her list but then spent time with him, got to know him more. Granted he was hardly a peach but I think she grew to understand him a little more & then couldn't bring herself to kill him. 

On the other hand sometimes I think No, she just hated him soooo much that she thought he deserved to lay there & suffer until his last breath rather than be given a quicker, easier death. I just don't know. 

I don't think Sandor could have known Gregor would come back as UnGregor but that's an interesting point about the marionette. In a way people are pulling the strings of Sandor & Gregor. Of course they put their own "flair" to the things they are ordered to do, especially Gregor, but they definitely are not acting on their own orders. 

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Sandor already killed The Butcher's Boy, too. (Unless we believe the outcome of his trial by combat with Ser Beric, in which he is exonerated for that killing.) Throughout the books, Gregor is frequently referred to as a butcher. So this could be part of the symbolism, too. Maybe it's a "kill the boy and let the man be born" example - the Butcher's Boy died and the Butcher is soon unleashed in the Riverlands.

Or maybe Sandor just doesn't want to be a kinslayer.

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23 minutes ago, Seams said:

Sandor already killed The Butcher's Boy, too. (Unless we believe the outcome of his trial by combat with Ser Beric, in which he is exonerated for that killing.) Throughout the books, Gregor is frequently referred to as a butcher. So this could be part of the symbolism, too. Maybe it's a "kill the boy and let the man be born" example - the Butcher's Boy died and the Butcher is soon unleashed in the Riverlands.

Or maybe Sandor just doesn't want to be a kinslayer.

The Hound was found not guilty...

Quote

Harwin took her arm to draw her back as Lord Beric said, "The girl has named you a murderer. Do you deny killing this butcher's boy, Mycah?"

The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

"Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?" Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.

"I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. "This one's own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert."

"Sansa's just a liar," Arya said, furious at her sister all over again. "It wasn't like she said. It wasn't."

Thoros drew Lord Beric aside. The two men stood talking in low whispers while Arya seethed. They have to kill him. I prayed for him to die, hundreds and hundreds of times.

Beric Dondarrion turned back to the Hound. "You stand accused of murder, but no one here knows the truth or falsehood of the charge, so it is not for us to judge you. Only the Lord of Light may do that now. I sentence you to trial by battle."

Arya VI, Storm 34

Of course, that does not mean that the Hound was innocent. 

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On 14/10/2017 at 8:16 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

The Hound is a fearsome spectacle to behold. He did not get the rep by being kind and gentle. He is a warrior. A killing machine. Which serves his purpose to survive. The common/small folk fear him.

I do see Sandor having a weak spot for small and helpless individuals, as in Tyrion, Sansa and Arya. Else he would not warn them of the perils that they may face.

To put my words into a more modern thought--- Gregor is the bully, Sandor is not. Sandor survived his childhood ordeal and he can if he wants to, warn people of the harm that may come their way. That is what he does with the Stark girls and Tyrion.

I really doubt that Sandor's shown much in the way of gallantry before - this tourney was the first time he won the love of the commons, and his reputation is not that he defends the weak, but that he's not a monster like Gregor. The best we know about him then is that he hated 'waste'  - deaths like Ser Hugh's, and and destruction like the burning of the Crownlands.

On 14/10/2017 at 8:16 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I once typed that if Martin kills off Ghost I would throw the book out the door. If Martin has Sandor die saving loose lip Sansa I will burn the book. 

Let Sansa continue to dream her knight and lady dreams. Lady Lannister...

LOL - this is like when a guy's best friends meet his partner and start saying to each other: "I just don't get it! What does he see in her???"

It won't change anything, it never does. He's never going break with Sansa, because that's not what dogs do - and I'm sure you remember this quote:

Quote

A hound will die for you, but never lie to you.

Well, death has lost a lot of its sting lately, so nothing to worry about. The 'Hound' has sort of died once already, and I predict Sansa will spend most of winter deep frozen, with Arya and Sandor joining her towards the end - and that's hardly a restriction either, but cuts out most opportunites for romance.

On 14/10/2017 at 8:16 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Very important in the Gregor Sandor sword fight is that Sandor had opportunity to slice Gregor’s head in half. He didn’t do it.

Yes. Probably it's to create a parallel with the final battle with UnGregor, when of course hitting the head won't have any effect.

Reasons... we've discussed reasons. Maybe the most likely is simply that he's an elite bodyguard of the royal family, and closing down incidents with minimum destruction is his job - and he loves his job. When he was fighting off the mob in KL, his face was 'transformed' - I guess that means without the tension and twitching that's probably his 'normal' face. He was at peace, I think. He says killing is the sweetest thing, but we don't see him going for kills, so the truth must be that the sweetest thing is fighting to the limits of his ability.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It won't change anything, it never does. He's never going break with Sansa, because that's not what dogs do - and I'm sure you remember this quote:

To the SanSan wishful romantic shippers I say, no. Sansa is 12 (?) years old. Sandor is approximately 29-30 years of age.

Let Sansa continue to dream her knight and lady dreams. Lady Lannister is after all moving on learning how to use her female 12-13 year old wiles to hook Harry per LF's request.

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19 hours ago, Seams said:

It might be interesting to consider this question alongside the question of why Arya didn't kill Sandor when he lay gravely wounded after their fight at the inn at the crossroads.

I agree.

Personal opinion and projection..

Sandor didn't kill Gregor because it would have been a cheap shot. Easy and unfulfilling.

Arya leaving the Hound to die a long painful death, I was pissed.

:cool4:

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22 hours ago, Seams said:

Another thought about why Sandor might have refrained from going in for the kill against Gregor: maybe the Hound somehow knew that beheading Gregor would be useless because he would go on to live as a dead guy, as he does after Qyburn messes with him.

Qyburn is as yet unknown to King's Landing and will be for literally YEARS. Nobody knows of his existence, let alone his necromantic and vivisectionist experiments. No way Sandor could anticipate a reanimator would be an aide to the queen.

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sandor didn't kill Gregor because it would have been a cheap shot. Easy and unfulfilling.

Arya leaving the Hound to die a long painful death, I was pissed.

Good points! I think, in Arya's case, she was consciously leaving him to die a long painful death "You don't deserve the gift of mercy" and subconsciously not really wanting to kill him. Remember her parting words to him, "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe. You should have saved my mother". Pretty babyish, right? Nothing about poor Mycah, who Arya realizes she can't even visualize anymore. Not a word about Sandor's (baseless) claim that he went to Sansa's room to rape her. Arya finds she can't kill him as he lays there, feverish and bleeding, just as she couldn't kill him in the cave of the brotherhood, or the times she tried to, but then he looked at her and she held back.

There's a parallel with Ned's philosophy, which Arya as a girl was probably never told: that if you pass sentence on a man, it's up to you to look him in the eye and hear his last words, then do the execution yourself. If you can't, then maybe the man deserves to live. At the last moment, Arya was unable to kill Sandor Clegane. She'd killed others, both on her list and off. But for her, he was different.

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

Sandor already killed The Butcher's Boy, too. (Unless we believe the outcome of his trial by combat with Ser Beric, in which he is exonerated for that killing.) Throughout the books, Gregor is frequently referred to as a butcher. So this could be part of the symbolism, too. Maybe it's a "kill the boy and let the man be born" example - the Butcher's Boy died and the Butcher is soon unleashed in the Riverlands.

Or maybe Sandor just doesn't want to be a kinslayer.

I've always felt like Sandor won the trial by combat because while he did the deed he wasn't the one "guilty" of it. It would be very interesting to learn he didn't do the deed at all though. 

Nice symbolism. I never thought about that. I like it. 

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