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Angel Eyes

The Case of Quentyn Martell...

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How much Blood of the Dragon is needed to control a dragon? Quentyn, as a Martell, traces his ancestry back to the first Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Aegon IV and sister of Daeron II. 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

How much Blood of the Dragon is needed to control a dragon? Quentyn, as a Martell, traces his ancestry back to the first Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Aegon IV and sister of Daeron II. 

It isn't blood. it is a personal bond. Most targs had dragon eggs in their crib when they were babies and were raised with the kids after hatching.  Nettles bonded with a dragon by feeding it. 

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54 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It isn't blood. it is a personal bond. Most targs had dragon eggs in their crib when they were babies and were raised with the kids after hatching.  Nettles bonded with a dragon by feeding it. 

I think you do need a little bit Targ blood to ride a dragon. Nettles and three other low born riders are called dragon seeds. They are bastards of dragon lords thus do have a little bit dragon blood. For Adam and Arryn, their father is either Laenor, son of a Targ princess, or Corlys Velaryon, who also has Targ blood from his ancesters. 

Once you have a drop of dragon blood, you are possible to ride a dragon, but still not necessarily can ride one. Adam got a dragon but his brother Arryn was rejected. Jofffery was refused by his mom's dragon. Corlys and other Velaryon never rode dragons. 

So briefly, I think Quentyn was not crazy, he has a drop of dragon blood so it is possible for him to be a dragon rider. But he did not succeed just like Arlyn.  

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There is a question of blood. But there must also be a question of spirit, of sameness. And Quentyn was more a sheep than a dragon on this. He had the want, but he was still afraid of the dragons.

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I doubt even Aegon the Conqeror could bust in on a caged dragon and expect to tame it with a whip and a harsh word (blood or no blood). Dany is struggling to for control and she's been with them since birth. 

Edited by Foot_Of_The_King

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Not a question of percentage. You need to have the dragon gene, which is an X chromosome-bonded gene. You either have it or you don't. Quentyn doesn't have the gene (if this theory is correct) but Arianne and the Sand Snakes might have it. And it may be possible to get a dragon to let you ride it without the gene, but you wouldn't have a telepathic bond with the dragon like Dany with Drogon or wargs with their wolves.

 

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2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Not a question of percentage. You need to have the dragon gene, which is an X chromosome-bonded gene. You either have it or you don't. Quentyn doesn't have the gene (if this theory is correct) but Arianne and the Sand Snakes might have it. And it may be possible to get a dragon to let you ride it without the gene, but you wouldn't have a telepathic bond with the dragon like Dany with Drogon or wargs with their wolves.

 

Does Dany have a telepathic bond with Drogon?

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29 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Does Dany have a telepathic bond with Drogon?

Very likely yes, the most significant piece of evidence being this quote:

Quote

He was one of the spearmen sent out to drive the boar back to his pen. Perhaps he was drunk, or mad. Perhaps he had loved Barsena Blackhair from afar or had heard some whisper of the girl Hazzea. Perhaps he was just some common man who wanted bards to sing of him. He darted forward, his boar spear in his hands. Red sand kicked up beneath his heels, and shouts rang out from the seats. Drogon raised his head, blood dripping from his teeth. The hero leapt onto his back and drove the iron spearpoint down at the base of the dragon's long scaled neck.

Dany and Drogon screamed as one.

 

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On 10/11/2017 at 1:07 PM, purple-eyes said:

I think you do need a little bit Targ blood to ride a dragon. Nettles and three other low born riders are called dragon seeds. They are bastards of dragon lords thus do have a little bit dragon blood.

No, Jacaerys opened the tests up to anyone. TPatQ explicitly says "Not all those who came forward in answer to the prince’s call were seeds, nor even the sons or grandsons of seeds." There's nothing to indicate that Nettles was a dragonlord's bastard, and everything to indicate that she wasn't. She either proves that you don't need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon, or that Targaryen blood is a lot more widely dispersed than is commonly believed.

We don't know nearly enough to be sure of anything, but if I had to guess, here's my guess:

Having dragonlord blood actually means nothing. However, being closely related to the person who hatched a dragon means a lot. It's neither necessary nor sufficient, but smelling* right makes it a whole lot easier. For most or all of the actual Targs and "proper" dragonseeds we know about, either their dragon's eggs were in their cribs, or they inherited their dragon from a close relative like an aunt or a grandfather, so they all smelled right, which made it relatively easy.

Of course there are lots of other factors—how well socialized the dragon is, and its individual temperament; the attitude you take in trying to tame it; how patient you are; etc. No matter how right you smell, an ancient and unsociable wild dragon like Cannibal is going to be hard to tame. And if you act like an arrogant but cowardly jackass, any dragon will be difficult, even one that was bonded to your identical twin. But if you have enough patience, the right attitude, and a bit of luck, anyone can tame any dragon.

So, Quentyn is Dany's… Dany's second cousin twice removed? I forget the exact relationship, but it's far enough away that they're not going to smell similar. And he tries the direct approach, while quaking in his boots, with an angry and unhappy wild dragon—so of course he gets roasted.

But again, this is just a guess. I think it's a better guess than the X-linked gene, or needing some magic minimum percentage, or any of the other guesses I've seen, but there's really no conclusive evidence for or against any of them.

---

* Whether the dragons literally smell pheromones, or figuratively smell magic, or whatever, doesn't really matter.

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I'd love to see Stannis become a dragonrider - he is 1/4th Targ ...

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3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I'd love to see Stannis become a dragonrider - he is 1/4th Targ ...

Stannis isn't an animal lover after Proudwing. I doubt he'd have the temperament to train or bond with a dragon if he somehow got one in the current story. He'd be chow right along with Quentyn.

Speaking of, Quent just goes to show why the dragons need some special treatment to bond with. Blood might be good, whips and domination may be useful, but neither is good enough alone or even combined.

It'll make the horn or whatever it is that works on the dragons seem that much more special. 

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On 10/11/2017 at 0:46 PM, Angel Eyes said:

How much Blood of the Dragon is needed to control a dragon? Quentyn, as a Martell, traces his ancestry back to the first Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Aegon IV and sister of Daeron II. 

I don't believe there has to be a formulaic answer. I think The Dragon chooses (as per the author's wishes and the plot's demands). 

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On 10/11/2017 at 3:52 PM, Banner Without Brothers said:

None. Nettles.

If Brown Ben could have a drop of dragonblood, so could Nettles. 

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57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't believe there has to be a formulaic answer. I think The Dragon chooses (as per the author's wishes and the plot's demands). 

That would be interesting, like wands in Harry Potter "the wand chooses the wizard."

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Brown Ben could have a drop of dragonblood, so could Nettles. 

I said in another thread recently, about Stark genetics, Planetos would have a comparatively low MRCA (most recent common ancestor) compared to the real world. In reality it's 3000 years for about 7 bn people. In short everyone is related to everyone else and the only power blood has is the power that people give to it. 

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4 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I said in another thread recently, about Stark genetics, Planetos would have a comparatively low MRCA (most recent common ancestor) compared to the real world. In reality it's 3000 years for about 7 bn people. In short everyone is related to everyone else and the only power blood has is the power that people give to it. 

Remember that Planetos only matches real life where the science is intuitively obvious, or known to GRRM. As far as I know, the surprisingly low MRCA numbers didn't reach public consciousness until the mid 2000s (with the Scientific American article on Rohde, Olson, Chang and Olson, Chang, and then Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale). That's a decade after GRRM started planning out things like the Targaryens using incest to keep their blood pure and so on. So, unless he's actually retconned things halfway through, the MRCA on Planetos is probably not that low.

Also, by the way, more recently (although still a decade old…), it seems like there are good arguments that the original Olson, Chang mathematical model was flawed in the way it accounted for recontact with extreme tail cases like the Australian aborigines. Using a slightly more complicated model that does work, but may have its own problems, you get an MRCA of 40000 years for all humanity, but only 2100 years for all humanity minus those still living in pre-contact tribal societies.

So, if GRRM is keeping up to date with the science and retconning things as he goes along, the odds of a random Westerosi having a drop of dragonblood are even closer to 100% than you thought, but there should be people in the world for whom the odds are 0%. And, in fact, there probably are—as far as we know, the natives of southern Sothoryos have never had any contact with the settlers in northern Sothoryos, and there are even separate human species (including, possibly, the Ibbish) who can't breed true with the other humans.

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Ben Plumm and Quentyn have exactly the same amount to Targ blood. It is strongly implied that Ben has enough. Therefore, Quentyn probably had enough.

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11 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I said in another thread recently, about Stark genetics, Planetos would have a comparatively low MRCA (most recent common ancestor) compared to the real world. In reality it's 3000 years for about 7 bn people. In short everyone is related to everyone else and the only power blood has is the power that people give to it. 

In an other take - I suppose I have a some genetic relationship to Richard the Conqueror, or to the Buddha, or to the Kardashians (horror). But, I share 1/2 my DNA with my parents and siblings. I have platinum blond hair and purple eyes, or black hair and whatever... Which some folk have, and some folk do not. Does my relationship to Homer (not to mention Confucius, and my favorite relative, Ozymandias) make me differentiated from the rest of the folk of Planetos? Forgetting about dear, uncle, Alexander - pompous ass - who did a bit of conquering, but did not see to the future of the family line, though the Ptolemy's tried.

All in total whimsy :) - but OT, maybe Quenton had something (targ DNA) -  rather ineffectual, I should say - that might have differentiated himself?

Anyway, the MCRA is stale. Of all the TV awards ceremonies, it is the lamest.

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On 10/15/2017 at 2:47 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Very likely yes, the most significant piece of evidence being this quote:

 

Nice Catch

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