ReturnOfCaponBreath

Dune = Awesome = ASOIAF

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Greetings, I just started reading the Dune series and I'm immediately taken by a couple of things.

 

1 it's Awesome and I can't recommend it highly enough, not sure how I managed to go 40+ years without knowing this.

2 of all the books and series I've read it's surely the closest to ASOIAF I've come across and has a huge amount of parallels.

Plots and intrigues

An Epic scale spanning generations and seeing those plots unfold through those generations.

The importance of bloodline, breeding, inheritance and entitlement in a feudal society.

The interplay of government, religion and commerce in the struggle for power.

The fact that not everything happens on screen so the reader is empowered to fill in the blanks for themselves.

The fact that it's a sci-fi book where the sci-fi is incidental to the story in the same way that ASOIAF is a fantasy book but the fantasy is incidental.

Even down to the Bene Tleilax a bunch of face changing assassins with a strange code of honour who are surely the direct inspiration for the faceless men?

 

I wonder has GRRM ever cited Dune as an inspiration for him?

 

 

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I whole heartedly endorse your comments.  I reread the Dune series every couple of years, have ever since high school,  so that's about ten readings.

IDK know of any direct nods to Dune, but so many parallels.

Maesters are like the Bene Geserit,   in terms of political influence and symbiotic relationship with the nobility. They're also like Suk doctors.  I believe they are also running a breeding program and that they use the Faith of the Seven to turn people away from magic.

Faceless men? I got   your Bene Tlielax face dancers right here. Greenseers? May I present the BG reverend Mothers? 

The Others? I got your Honored Matres and Futars and so on and so forth.

I could go on and on, but I won't, yet. I've been working up an essay. So many loose parallels, nothing too close , but close enough to give me gleeful joy in reading ASoIaF.

Fremen, Swordmasters of Ginaz, Harkonnens (Boltons), Corrinos(Lannister) vs Atreides (Starks).

 

I'm down with a nasty cold right now so I can't really think wells enough to spell it all out but this made me feel better.

 

 Folks, if you haven't read Dune, and you love ASoIaF, I promise you ,you will enjoy reading it.

 

Imho the first two books are phenominal, the next two are very good, and they are the ones that explore the politics, religion, human conflict, etc , a little dryer, but still great.  The last two pick it up again and the last book especially... Man. I can't even.

 

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I agree. I did not make through all of the books, but when I skimmed through them a few months back I was pleasantly surprised with the (possible) inspirations. 

There is another thread you may also be interested in... 

 

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4 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Greetings, I just started reading the Dune series and I'm immediately taken by a couple of things.

wrong forum ?

 

4 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I wonder has GRRM ever cited Dune as an inspiration for him?

There is small Paul with the blue eyes. I always took it as an hommage.

But there is also a big difference between Dune and aSoIaF: Where Dune has clarity aSoIaF has confusion and obscurity. Where Dune has a prologue that already points out the entire conflict, aSoIaF has some expelled men dying in the cold. 

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3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

wrong forum ?

No, I don't think so and I guess neither do you by virtue of you replying with a parallel / homage which is the point of the thread.

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I love all of Frank Herbert's work.  Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear:

I must not fear.

Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.

Only I will remain.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"Almost dawn, my lady."
Dawn. Another day is given us, R'hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord's blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover's kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

 

 
Death and sleeping:
Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

The sleeper has awakened:

Waking the dead:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Tell us what you saw." From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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I've always thought there were clear parallels between Leto/Jessica and Ned/Catelyn.  Leto, like Ned, is given a big promotion, resulting in betrayal and death.  Catelyn, like Jessica, is warned secretly that it's a trap, and has to cope with the attempted assassination of her son.

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After trying to listen to Sir Oxford on youtube, with him citing the comparisons, I caught the film on television, and tried to watch it, but was just left with the feeling of "Uhh, whats going on here". I understand it enough to want to read the books, but at this point, I just haven't gotten around to acquiring any yet.

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Dune is good. The sequels, not so much. I got to no.4 or 5 ...

700 pages of blabber and then 50 pages of action.

I'd stick to the odd numbered books and skip the even numbered ones ...

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Bless the Maker and his passing!

I suspect that the blue heart in the House of the Undying may be that of a dragon that was poisoned with Shade of the Evening in the vein of juvenile sandworms drowned to produce Water of Life.

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

 

Bless the Maker and his passing!

I suspect that the blue heart in the House of the Undying may be that of a dragon that was poisoned with Shade of the Evening in the vein of juvenile sandworms drowned to produce Water of Life.

 

So glad to see this thread! As @Reekazoid, I reread the whole Dune series every couple of years. Agree w/ what most said here regarding the parallels in these awesome stories. Someone asked whether Martin has ever mentioned Dune as an inspiration... not as far as I know but I could be wrong. The only instance I remember of Martin bringing up Dune is an interview where he said he doesn't want what happened to Herbert to happen to him, what w/ people pestering him non stop for "more Dune stories!". 

As to the bold above, I like it! :thumbsup: 

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8 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

After trying to listen to Sir Oxford on youtube, with him citing the comparisons, I caught the film on television, and tried to watch it, but was just left with the feeling of "Uhh, whats going on here". I understand it enough to want to read the books, but at this point, I just haven't gotten around to acquiring any yet.

Oh gods no, Dune  1984 David Lynch movie is even less faithful to the Dune books than HBOs GoT is to ASoIaF.   The SyFy miniseries from the early 2000's is better as a depiction of the actual Dune story, but pales in comparison as a visual spectacle. The Lynch version is very weird, beautifully filmed, and well cast and directed. Similar to Twin Peaks, which he did around that same time. 

The only worse book to movie adaptation I can think of right offhand would be Starship Troopers.

 

But, I digress.

Thanks for letting us know about Sir Oxford, I'll look him up. 

 

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I've always thought there were clear parallels between Leto/Jessica and Ned/Catelyn.  Leto, like Ned, is given a big promotion, resulting in betrayal and death.  Catelyn, like Jessica, is warned secretly that it's a trap, and has to cope with the attempted assassination of her son.

And they both made a decision that ultimately hastened  the downfall of their house. 

Edited by Reekazoid
Fat fingers

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Absolutely, Dune is a great series and I also found myself thinking about it a bit after reading ASoIAF. Tons of parallels but also both very unique in outlook and theme. I dropped a mention recently in another thread in reference to TPTWP and whether she/he will have a choice in fulfilling whatever GRRM has destined for them. I always loved how Paul chose not to complete the prophecy but Leto II chose to fulfill it. Can still remember being 13 and thinking,"No Leto, No!" I wonder if GRRM has some sort of God/Man merger lurking for the three heads of the dragon. 

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15 hours ago, SirArthur said:

There is small Paul with the blue eyes.

Mind=Blown. 

Also, Kwisatz Haderach/Lisan al Gib = Prince that was Promised?

Fremen could be similar to the Free Folk, especially with Chani being like Ygritte.  Unsullied like Sardaukar.

 

 Leto II reminds me of Bloodraven.  For some reason, Duncan Idaho (my personal favorite character) makes me think of Jonah Mormont but I can't process why ATM. 

This is fun. I'm a straight noob in the arena of ASoIaF discourse, but I am on a little more familiar ground in this thread. 

Im ready for my (first full ) reread of ASoIaF, I think this whole conversation has fired off some dusty neurons and I'll have good familiar mental pegs to hang my future Ice and Fire observations on. 

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32 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

And they both made a decision that ultimately hastened  the downfall of their house. 

This is the one thing I do not agree with. Leto is a charismatic leader among a council of smaller lords and has to take the offer. He almost has no choice. Ned is a powerful lord and Neds mistake in that regard was to accept the offer of hand of the king. The entire trap for the emperor is about getting rid of Leto and for the Harkonen is about hitting house Atreides hard. (there are more Atreides on Caladan). Ned does it out of friendship and loyalty. 

However if we go Arya/Alia that always creeps me out. I don't know why but Alia herself never creeps me out while reading Dune. And Arya also is not that much of a problem. But if you overlay their character pattern and abilities it creeps me out completely. Like total. That is Arya becomes the Night's King level of creepiness. 

Edited by SirArthur

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Sorry , you are entirely correct in analyzing The Ned vs. Leto I Atreides. I phrased my observation poorly. 

I wa referring to Catelyn arresting Tyrion,  and Jessica bearing a son instead of a daughter. 

 

Also Cat trusted Littlefinger, and Jessica trusted Dr. Yueh, and in both cases, even though their intuition was bugging them, they rationalized that the bond of childhood friendship (LF) and the Imperial conditioning (DY) were assurances of trust. 

 

To be fair to Cat though in comparison she had nowhere near the training and faculties that  Jessica had, and I believe that even though she knew something was very much off, she put all of her fears and doubts into Lannisterphobia quite justifiably. 

OMG... now Piter Devries is reminding me of Qyburn. 

 

Dude, Arya :Alia?  Mind blown for like the fifth time today. 

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7 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

The only worse book to movie adaptation I can think of right offhand would be Starship Troopers.

The ST movie started off as a generic "shoot them evil! bugs" SF-boyflic and only later drifted into a book adaption :)

"The Hobbit" trilogy is much, much worse then Starship Troopers as it was INTENDED to be a "book to movie" adaptation ...

Edited by TMIFairy

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13 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Sorry , you are entirely correct in analyzing The Ned vs. Leto I Atreides. I phrased my observation poorly. 

I wa referring to Catelyn arresting Tyrion,  and Jessica bearing a son instead of a daughter. 

 

Also Cat trusted Littlefinger, and Jessica trusted Dr. Yueh, and in both cases, even though their intuition was bugging them, they rationalized that the bond of childhood friendship (LF) and the Imperial conditioning (DY) were assurances of trust. 

 

To be fair to Cat though in comparison she had nowhere near the training and faculties that  Jessica had, and I believe that even though she knew something was very much off, she put all of her fears and doubts into Lannisterphobia quite justifiably. 

OMG... now Piter Devries is reminding me of Qyburn. 

 

Dude, Arya :Alia?  Mind blown for like the fifth time today. 

Personally, I don't see much similarity between Arya and Alia.  Their story arcs seem very different to me.

I do see parallels between Paul and Daenerys, both of them being Messianic characters who bring both salvation and destruction.

Jessica's errors came about due to her overweening ambition, whereas Catelyn's were made out of a desperate need to protect her family.

Edited by SeanF

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20 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Dune is good. The sequels, not so much. I got to no.4 or 5 ...

700 pages of blabber and then 50 pages of action.

I'd stick to the odd numbered books and skip the even numbered ones ...

I thought Dune Messiah was poor, but Children of Dune was a return to form.  I've not read beyond that.

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