Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

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Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him

Patchface "will lead it" because he is already undead, Jon and others will follow him in and out of death.

Patchface does have some connection with Jon.  He is excited the first time he sees Jon and declares:

"The crow, the crow, under the sea, the crows are white as snow."

I thought this might refer to the white walkers; but are they really crows? That seems more appropriate to the NW.  I've wondered where there would be a place full of bones or skulls.  Bran has seen that in the cave of the greenseer; but I'm reminded of Borroq taking up residence in the castle lichyard among the ancient tombs and I wonder if there are catacombs or a cave system near of beneath the Wall that contains the bones of the dead collected there for thousands of years.

http://www.catacombes.paris.fr/en/homepage-catacombs-official-website

I like the idea that mermen or merlngs are wights, seashells are horns to call the wights and seahorses are ships to take them past the Wall.  

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Patchface does have some connection with Jon.  He is excited the first time he sees Jon and declares:

"The crow, the crow, under the sea, the crows are white as snow."

I thought this might refer to the white walkers; but are they really crows? That seems more appropriate to the NW.  I've wondered where there would be a place full of bones or skulls.  Bran has seen that in the cave of the greenseer; but I'm reminded of Borroq taking up residence in the castle lichyard among the ancient tombs and I wonder if there are catacombs or a cave system near of beneath the Wall that contains the bones of the dead collected there for thousands of years.

http://www.catacombes.paris.fr/en/homepage-catacombs-official-website

I like the idea that mermen or merlngs are wights, seashells are horns to call the wights and seahorses are ships to take them past the Wall.  

I like the idea of the original NW being undeads like Coldhands and the "sleepers" in the vows being wights. The wights acting as both infantry and food source for the normal humans surviving inside the CoTF caves (the places full of bones).

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I like the idea of the original NW being undeads like Coldhands and the "sleepers" in the vows being wights. The wights acting as both infantry and food source for the normal humans surviving inside the CoTF caves (the places full of bones).

That works for me.  I think the broken horn in Sam's possession is the horn that binds the brothers with strange magic.

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Tucu said:

 

Patchface "will lead it" because he is already undead, Jon and others will follow him in and out of death.

 

There is this business with the Stallion that Mounts the World:
 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

"The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused.

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."

 

Weeping tears of blood comes up in Ned's dreams of Lyanna as well as with Catelyn who tears her face at the red wedding;  fierce as a snow-storm.  It's Patchface who wears bells in his antlers and 'sings' of The crow, the crow...

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is this business with the Stallion that Mounts the World:
 

Weeping tears of blood comes up in Ned's dreams of Lyanna as well as with Catelyn who tears her face at the red wedding;  fierce as a snow-storm.  It's Patchface who wears bells in his antlers and 'sings' of The crow, the crow...

Cat's transformation also includes music in the form of bells:

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She tugged hard on Aegon's hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

I imagine that GRRM used the word doom intentionally there.

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Cat's transformation also includes music in the form of bells:

I imagine that GRRM used the word doom intentionally there.

Yes, I don't recall if Jingle Bells did any singing though and he dies as well.  I do count Catelyn as one of Jon's enemies or at least, she certainly wasn't a friend.  There is also Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood.... wives and enemies.  Of the two, Patchface is the more significant player.  

[Brad Stark]

I have 2 different takes on patchface.

1)  He was just a talented fool and the ship went down in a normal storm.  Either he was the sole 'surviver' by luck, or something chose him.  Some higher power or magic user brought him back from the dead. 

2) He and the storm were special to begin with.  He caused the ship to go down, either by wanting it to sink, or someone wanting him to sink.

Thoughts?

[SirArthur]

Either Patchface is just a tragic clown or the story evolves around marriage "with the right person" and magical bloodlines of great importance and his survival is kind of the big deal. 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Either Patchface is just a tragic clown or the story evolves around marriage "with the right person" and magical bloodlines of great importance and his survival is kind of the big deal. 

I've also suspected Patchface may be from an important bloodline.  Steffon Baratheon was on a mission to find a wife for Rhaegar when he found Patchface.  It is possible they encountered Patchface by chance and just decided to buy him on a whim.  But they went to the Free Cities because of Bloodlines, and may have been investigating anyone claimed to have descended from important blood from Valaryia, someone could have brought Patchface to their attention because of his ancestry.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I have 2 different takes on patchface.

1)  He was just a talented fool and the ship went down in a normal storm.  Either he was the sole 'surviver' by luck, or something chose him.  Some higher power or magic user brought him back from the dead. 

2) He and the storm were special to begin with.  He caused the ship to go down, either by wanting it to sink, or someone wanting him to sink.

Thoughts?

3) He is caricature of a green man or horned lord, a servant of the drowned god.

4) Patch: A temporary, removable electronic connection, as one between two components in a communications system.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

3) He is caricature of a green man or horned lord, a servant of the drowned god.

4) Patch: A temporary, removable electronic connection, as one between two components in a communications system.

Patchface drowned in the same area where the Sea God has his eternal battle with the descendants of Durran Godsgrief. Yet he ends talking about lore that seems to match the Drowned God.

Patchface is also thematically related to the Shrouded Lord who rules the Sorrows and grants a boon to anyone who makes him laugh. The Shrouded Lord is said to be Garin, a Rhoynish Prince and watermage.

I am not sure how this add up with the "Dead things in the woods" and "Dead things in the water" in Cotter Pyke's letter.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Patchface drowned in the same area where the Sea God has his eternal battle with the descendants of Durran Godsgrief. Yet he ends talking about lore that seems to match the Drowned God.

Patchface is also thematically related to the Shrouded Lord who rules the Sorrows and grants a boon to anyone who makes him laugh. The Shrouded Lord is said to be Garin, a Rhoynish Prince and watermage.

I am not sure how this add up with the "Dead things in the woods" and "Dead things in the water" in Cotter Pyke's letter.

That's interesting.  Continuing associations for Patchface; he wears cowbells to announce his presence or to warn of danger approaching.  A cowbell is like an amulet:

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An amulet is an object that is typically worn on one's person, and is alleged to have the magical power to protect its holder– either to protect them in general or to protect them from some specific thing.[1] Amulets are different from talismans because a talisman may have alleged magical powers other than protection.[2] Amulets are sometimes confused with pendants– small aesthetic objects that hang from necklaces. Any given pendant may indeed be an amulet, but so may any other object which purports to protect its holder from danger.

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The ornaments on the cow bell and the collar are usually decorative although some cultures believe that certain ornaments provide or enhance magical protections such as the power to prevent or cure fever and other illnesses.

Though the bells for shepherding were expanded from the fertile crescent to Celtic, Carthaginian, Greek and Roman cultures, in Europe the earliest written evidence of bells used for livestock dates to the late 14th to early 15th century. Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch s.v. "Kuhschelle" points to a 1410 mention in a Frankfurt archive; the OED lists 1440 as the earliest attestation of a bell-wether, the leading sheep of a flock, on whose neck a bell is hung. The OED also attributes the phrase "to bear the bell" in the sense "to take the first place" as originally referring to the leading cow or sheep of a drove or flock to Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde, 1374. In 15th-century Germany, a cow bell was worn only by the best and leading piece of livestock.[citation needed] The wider distribution of the bell worn by livestock was a gradual process of the Early Modern period.

In France in the mid-16th century, Francois Rabelais makes this practice explicit in his Gargantua and Pantagruel, stating that such was the custom, to appear on the field wearing jingling garment, as the high priest wears when entering the sacristy; since the tournaments, that is, the contest of nobility, have been abolished, carters have taken the bells and hung them on their hacks.

The importance of the cow bell is highlighted in Swiss folklore, which reflects a period when a great Trychel, or large cow bell, was a rare and much-coveted item. The legend of the Simmental tells how a young cowherd strays inside a mountain, and is offered by a beautiful woman the choice between a treasure of gold coins, a golden Trychel, or the fairy herself. He chooses the Trychel.[7]

Leading the flock is exactly what Patchface offers to do.  Patchface appears to be tricked out as a priest of some sort.  His patchwork facial tatoos might have a magical binding association to them.
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X

"And one," said a crone in a violet tokar. The auctioneer gave her a sour look but did not disallow the bid.

The slave sailors off the Selaesori Qhoran, sold singly, had gone for prices ranging from five hundred to nine hundred pieces of silver. Seasoned seamen were a valuable commodity. None had put up any sort of fight when the slavers boarded their crippled cog. For them this was just a change of owner. The ship's mates had been free men, but the widow of the waterfront had written them a binder, promising to stand their ransom in such a case as this. The three surviving fiery fingers had not been sold yet, but they were chattels of the Lord of Light and could count on being bought back by some red temple. The flames tattooed upon their faces were their binders.

 

In a sense, his facial tatoos have been permanently sewn onto his face with a needle.  He has been 'given a face'.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's interesting.  Continuing associations for Patchface; he wears cowbells to announce his presence or to warn of danger approaching.  A cowbell is like an amulet:

Leading the flock is exactly what Patchface offers to do.  Patchface appears to be tricked out as a priest of some sort.  His patchwork facial tatoos might have a magical binding association to them.
 

In a sense, his facial tatoos have been permanently sewn onto his face with a needle.  He has been 'given a face'.

Keeping with the idea of Patchface leading people we have this quote from Jamie:

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Joffrey's bier had been laid out beneath the Stranger, who led the newly dead to the other world

 

[SirArthur]

I'm actually not sure what's going on with the cowbell ... I find it just strange and maybe it makes only sense if GRRM and the reader have the same foreign perspective on it. 

That said cowbells are massive objects and weight .. a LOT, any smaller would be simply a small bell usually associated with medieval court pranksters' hats. A small cowbell would actually simply be ... a small bell some cats have attached to their collar. 

And that is how I read it: a cat bell in human size. Usually worn by court jesters. 

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I'm actually not sure what's going on with the cowbell ... I find it just strange and maybe it makes only sense if GRRM and the reader have the same foreign perspective on it. 

That said cowbells are massive objects and weight .. a LOT, any smaller would be simply a small bell usually associated with medieval court pranksters' hats. A small cowbell would actually simply be ... a small bell some cats have attached to their collar. 

And that is how I read it: a cat bell in human size. Usually worn by court jesters. 

I don't think we're talking about small bells jingling and tinkling.  Patchface's bells set up a clangor. I don't think they necessarily have to be huge bells.
 

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"A few words. As I said, they are clever, these birds."

"Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool," said Patchface, jangling. "Oh, clever clever clever fool." He began to sing. "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor.

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Joffrey's bier had been laid out beneath the Stranger, who led the newly dead to the other world

Nice catch.  Didn't know that.

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I don't think we're talking about small bells jingling and tinkling.  Patchface's bells set up a clangor. I don't think they necessarily have to be huge bells.
 

 

If we are looking at the symbolism of bells we have the death knell that fits quite well with Patchface:

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A Death Knell was the ringing of a bell immediately after a death to announce it. Historically it was the second of three bells rung around death; the first being the "Passing Bell" to warn of impending death, and the last was the "Lych Bell", or "Corpse Bell"

 

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If we are looking at the symbolism of bells we have the death knell that fits quite well with Patchface:

 

And another is bellwether:  someone or something that shows how a situation will develop or change

[Tucu]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And another is bellwether:  someone or something that shows how a situation will develop or change

Yes, both work if Patchface is leading people to their death (and maybe resurrection)

[SirArthur]

On 26.10.2017 at 10:29 PM, LynnS said:

I don't think we're talking about small bells jingling and tinkling.  Patchface's bells set up a clangor. I don't think they necessarily have to be huge bells.

I don't know if it is worth the effort researching the clangor abilities of small bells. My first assumption would simply be that the thickness of the material and the form of the bell will create the sound characteristic while the size will determine the volume. 

This is another one of the cases where we don't know the in world details (this time the outfit of other jesters) but any effort in this direction seems to be complete overkill.