Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

[WeaselPie]

On 11/3/2017 at 5:16 AM, Tucu said:

I found this quote in an interview with GRRM about Marvel's comics that supports the idea that they have influenced the Songs of Ice and Fire.

Quite well-established,

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, WeaselPie said:

Quite well-established,

Thnaks for the link. I always thought there was a lot of Norse/Saxon mythology embedded in the books, but I never noticed that there was so much of Marvel's version.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Thnaks for the link. I always thought there was a lot of Norse/Saxon mythology embedded in the books, but I never noticed that there was so much of Marvel's version.

Me too, though again although I can see that GRRM is taking situations from the Marvel version, I'm confident he's putting his own spin on it rather than using it as a script, just as he's also done with Heart of Darkness. Nevertheless I still think it can give us insights into where he may be going. Loki may be the son of the Ice King, but he still regards Odin as his father and wants to be king of Asgard not of the Jotun. Jon may [or may not] be the son of Rhaegar but still yearns for Winterfell.

[wolfmaid7]

8 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

Quite well-established,

This is really cool Weasel Pie.I love your insight with the Marvel/Asoiaf connections and I can't wait to see more.

[Tucu]

I like the parallel between with Dane Whitman/Black Knight. He wields the Ebony Blade, a magical sword made from black ore from a meteor. The Ebony Blade is passed through generations and at some point was waiting for another person worthy of withdrawing it. It also carries a Blood Curse that corrupts the wielders if they are not strong/worthy enough.

Will the Sword of the Morning carry a similar curse as the Ebony Blade? Is this what happened to the Night's King and is this Jon's future?

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like the parallel between with Dane Whitman/Black Knight. He wields the Ebony Blade, a magical sword made from black ore from a meteor. The Ebony Blade is passed through generations and at some point was waiting for another person worthy of withdrawing it. It also carries a Blood Curse that corrupts the wielders if they are not strong/worthy enough.

Will the Sword of the Morning carry a similar curse as the Ebony Blade? Is this what happened to the Night's King and is this Jon's future?

I think its pretty much a constant of this kind of thing in mythology, where everything has its price. It could certainly be the case with the Sword of the Morning, which doesn't pass from father to son but only to someone worthy of it.

Although its not spelled out in the text is it possible that such a bestowal also comes with a price and that there was no blood feud between Starfall and Winterfell because the wielder of the sword will always die with it in his hand rather than tucked up in bed?

[JNR]

On 11/4/2017 at 4:50 PM, Black Crow said:

although I can see that GRRM is taking situations from the Marvel version, I'm confident he's putting his own spin on it rather than using it as a script

There's so much spin, I'm not even sure he's conscious of the influence in most cases.  

Which is why he says he only notices it "looking back" -- it just wasn't in his mind when he got started, in the way Tolkien was. 

For instance, this is the Marvel version of Laufey.  He's the king of the frost giants.  He is plainly nothing like either Balon Greyjoy or the canonical Popsicles (he's not made of ice, but is a giant humanoid about 30 feet tall, etc).

The Marvel Ymir is made of ice, but is a primordial being about 1000 feet tall, has nothing to do with wights, and bears no physical resemblance to frost giants.  

The nearest parallel to this creature, in ASOIAF, is probably the Red Faith concept of the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, but obviously even that is very speculative.

[LynnS]

I don't have anything to add concerning Thor or Marvel Comics as an influence since I have little knowledge of it.  I tend to think that they act as muses rather than anything that runs in parallel to Martin's story, or that they can be easily mapped one to the other as a source of prediction.

Since there is a pause in the conversation; my mind goes back to the notion that the WW are shells of ice that can be used for soul migration.  This fits with my thoughts that dragon eggs contain the souls of Targaryens that have bonded with them or that the eggs and dragons that hatch from them can contain the souls of Targaryens, effectively the great dragons or dragon gods of the Targs.

At least this is my interpretation of the Targaryen dreams of waking the dragon.  Dany seems to have been successful and the sleeping dragon seems to fit Rhaegar, the black egg and the black dread reincarnated as Drogon.  I've discussed some of this in the above thread and in previous Heresy.  

When Dany dreams of Rhaegar at the trident and transforming into Rheagar by wearing his armor; there is another voice who exults at the defeat of the usurper when the usurper's armies armored in ice, are bathed in dragonfire.  This dream of Rhaegar defeated at the Trident was a nightmare and the confrontation with ice 'the way it was meant to be.'   

Dany seems to be of two minds or heads; her own and another and she rides the black dragon.  This is perhaps the meaning of the dragon with three heads: Dany, Rhaegar and Drogon together.

Another notion that rolls around my head concerns the blue heart in the House of Undying.  Old and corrupt giving off little heat and I'm reminded of the Ghost of High Heart who says that the gods are present but old and feeble.  So I wonder if the blue heart represents the remnants of a once hot fire, something that is old and feeble, dying down to the last blue embers of a fire.  A cold flame in other words, something that burns without heat and without consuming but can be re-ignited back to hot flame:

Fire hot and cold can be referred to as plasma and so we have fire and ice wights with cold and hot fire running through their veins replacing blood plasma.

   

[Black Crow]

On 11/4/2017 at 10:22 AM, alienarea said:

I am truly amazed, and please take it serious and not as criticism, how you carry on discussing tiny details of a book series that most likely will not be finished.

I agree, its been a great ride and I appreciate all the discussions we've had on this thread over the years, but there's a limit to what we can squeeze out out, even though I think, especially lately, that we have got close to figuring out what's going on.

But hey, goodbye, and thanks for all the fish... 

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I agree, its been a great ride and I appreciate all the discussions we've had on this thread over the years, but there's a limit to what we can squeeze out out, even though I think, especially lately, that we have got close to figuring out what's going on.

But hey, goodbye, and thanks for all the fish... 

Thanks Black Crow.  203 threads, that's incredible.  See you when TWOW comes out!

[LynnS]

 

[Voice]

On 10/13/2017 at 9:52 AM, Black Crow said:

and question too whether the Starks might have a dark secret in their past, which we’re beginning to suspect may be gaunt, with characteristic long Stark face and very very cold.

 

Soon you'll be saying that Brandon the Builder was the Night's King.

[Voice]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:16 AM, LynnS said:

Fire hot and cold can be referred to as plasma and so we have fire and ice wights with cold and hot fire running through their veins replacing blood plasma.

 

Indeed.

[SirArthur]

7 hours ago, Voice said:

 

Soon you'll be saying that Brandon the Builder was the Night's King.

We do not even know who Symean Star-Eyes was, what heroic deeds he did and who his offsprings are. i find it quite hard to come to such conclusions when not even the legendary heroes are "explored". 

[A Ghost in Winter]

Hey heretics, can't tell you how glad I am to see some recent activity, the slow spell was worrying me a bit.. I've been reading along since back in the 60's or so and have thought Heresy volumes 200, 201 & 202 have been some of the better ones and I was worrying that Heresy, like all good things must, was coming to an end

The idea of Dany being undead (the taste of ashes in her mouth after the pyre, similar to Beric's thoughts of being born on a field with the same taste in his mouth) would never have occurred to me even after multiple re-reads and I loved it.  As I did the idea that her Dragon dreams may be some one else's memories. The discussion around Summerhall, what really was happening there and the tie to the ToJ  was great as well.  

I find the question of Coldhands true identity more interesting than I probably should  even though the answer likely has little relevance to his role in the story (well unless that scarf is hiding the scar from Brandon strangling himself to save Lord Rickard's life and Jon turns out to be an abomination born from B+L).

Anyway, to Black Crow, Voice, Lynn S, Matthew, Tucu, Ravenous, JNR and so many others - thanks for the ideas, analysis  and discussion - each and every one of you guys enhance a series I already loved tremendously to a whole other leve

[Voice]

On 11/17/2017 at 9:01 PM, A Ghost in Winter said:

Anyway, to Black Crow, Voice, Lynn S, Matthew, Tucu, Ravenous, JNR and so many others - thanks for the ideas, analysis  and discussion - each and every one of you guys enhance a series I already loved tremendously to a whole other leve

 

Excellent company to be in, to be sure. Thank you, AGiW. 

You might also enjoy our (extra heretical) other forum, The Last Hearth.

[Voice]

On 11/17/2017 at 5:33 AM, SirArthur said:

We do not even know who Symean Star-Eyes was, what heroic deeds he did and who his offsprings are. i find it quite hard to come to such conclusions when not even the legendary heroes are "explored". 

*Symeon.

And I didn't mention him.

[wolfmaid7]

On 11/17/2017 at 1:07 AM, Voice said:

 

Soon you'll be saying that Brandon the Builder was the Night's King.

We can only hope Voice to bring Papa Crow over to the Dark side 

[alienarea]

There is no dark side [of the moon], really. As a matter of fact, it's all dark.

[Tucu]

On 17/11/2017 at 6:07 AM, Voice said:

 

Soon you'll be saying that Brandon the Builder was the Night's King.

I like the idea of the Night's King being a line of Brandon Starks starting with Brandon the Builder and ending with Brandon the Breaker. GRRM hints at similar events in the world book when Archmaester Glave says that Durran Godsgrief was a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name.