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Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks


Black Crow

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12 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like the idea of the Night's King being a line of Brandon Starks starting with Brandon the Builder and ending with Brandon the Breaker. GRRM hints at similar events in the world book when Archmaester Glave says that Durran Godsgrief was a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name.

Hmmm. I like this idea myself. It works with the idea that BR was looking at “Brandon” Starks in particular. Might explain why BR chose Bran as opposed to Rickon despite the color of their wolves eyes. Also helps to explain the Night’s King imagery and parallels in Bran’s story. 

It does make me wonder about Ned’s brother Brandon, his untimely death, his tomb statue, and its missing sword...

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On 15.10.2017 at 2:19 PM, Black Crow said:

Ah, that get out clause!

By way of a recap: Varamyr believed that when a skinchanger's original body died the soul took refuge in a host, but couldn't then move on from there to another host and therefore experienced true death when that host died, if the soul had not already been absorbed into that of the host.

The get out clause may lie in the nature of white walkers and dragons. Both are the literally the embodiment of Ice and Fire. The walkers are Ice made flesh and the dragons are Fire made flesh. The white walkers, according to GRRM are created by magic and presumably the dragons also.

What I'm suggesting is that they were or are created to be immortal or near immortalbeen slain hosts for Stark and Targaryen souls and that in the Starks' case this was halted by the overthrow on the Nights King and the placing of cold iron swords on the statues to keep the souls in the bones.

Craster's sons, I don't know. Its possible that they are taken as a blood sacrifice, but it might also be the case that Craster himself carried the old Stark bloodline.

Ultimately, the point of all this is that if Jon has indeed been slain, he isn't necessarily trapped forever in Ghost as the Varamyr prologue suggests, but may have an out in treading lightly on the snow.

What a joy to come back from a hiatus to find you where I was all along! This is exactly my thinking. I have a few things to add and ask though. Apologies if the following was already discussed in this thread, I didn't read past this comment.

First, I would suggest that while WWs are hosts for the souls of dead Starks, dragons are the hosts for the souls of unborn Targaryens. Cold preserves but fire consumes. Danaerys' unborn child's soul is in all three dragons (A head must have three dragons).

This has many interesting ramifications, for example it could mean that the Targaryen female line is the one that actually is 'the blood of the dragon' (they breed the dragons). I tried to track the Targaryen misscarriages that were deformed (like Dany's) and interestingly enough the last such happened on the day the Dance of Dragons started (where all the dragons died) until the day the dragons were reborn by Danaerys. But there were also non-Targaryen women who birthed such deformities, Maegor's wifes, so maybe both male and female Targaryens can sire dragon-souls. Maegor was the only child of the female Targaryen line though.

It also provides a new insight into Baelor's Maidenvault. It can't be a coincidence that directly after most dragons died, all female Targaryen of breeding age were locked away. 

I think as long as there are dragons in the world this process of soul-transfer happens naturally if egg and unborn are in proximity (achieved through the Targaryen praxis of putting eggs in the cradle). Which is why Baelor locked them away while there was still at least one dragon alive (Sheepstealer). But if all dragons are dead you need something more dramatic to transfer the soul - Blood&Fire.

This also puts a new spin on the Blackfyre conflicts because Daemon I. represented the female Targaryen line. How Danaerys was able to birth dragons when the female line was lost with the Blackfyres is anyones guess (I have a few). It would also mean that the male Blackfyre line and its extinction is of no significance.

 

 

Second, I want to ask you where you think these old Stark souls were between the Long Night and the present story? Do you still believe that the WWs always were around (and the Stark souls with them)? But why do they need Craster's sons now if that is the case?

You might remember my theory that they chilled in the Heart of Winter all that time. We know Heart Trees can store souls and we know the Heart of the Undying stored souls.

 

Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.

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1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.

Wow!  I like everything you've said.  I too think Ghost will have to die to free Jon's soul.  The only place we differ is in dragon eggs containing the souls of unborn children.  That may be true in part;  a bonding between unborn and egg; but I also think Targs can have a second life in their dragons and this what the valyrian sphinx depicts.  I think the soul transfer to dragon in a second life creates the Great Dragons or dragon gods of the Targs.

I also think it's possible that when Rhaegar died, his soul was transferred to his egg; the black egg in Dany's possession. This is the dragon she wakes and the one she sees in her dreams 'singing' to her.  I think Martin is giving us a very clever reincarnation of Rhaegar in Drogon.    

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I'm not sure either. I think that primarily the bonding is just that; establishing a bond which will allow the transference at death. In the case of Danaerys' children that transfer may have been early due to the death of her unborn Rhaego, whether Drogon and Rhaegal have been snaffled by the souls of Drogo and Mirri mar whatzerface is questionable unless they were secret Targaryens. The problem I see with infusing the eggs with the the souls of unborn children [as opposed to simply bonding] is that it requires an awful lot of dead children.

As to Jon and Ghost we may have to consider that to be the purpose of Ghost and all the other Stark direwolves all along.

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  • 3 weeks later...

A very merry Christmas to all my fellow Heretics.

We know that while simple and obvious usually works well to explain reality, it's a poor choice to explain fiction in which the author's stated goal is to "surprise and delight" his audience.

Or, as a recent NY Times article put it:

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It is a sign of civilizational health to devote excess dollars to the scientific fringe, and to hope that bizarre secrets still await discovery even in our satellite-surveilled world.

And even better:

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The only kind of God worth trusting is the kind who does not play tricks.

I think we all know which kind GRRM is.  Here's hoping that in 2018, the rest of the world learns it too.

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:24 PM, Armstark said:

What a joy to come back from a hiatus to find you where I was all along! This is exactly my thinking. I have a few things to add and ask though. Apologies if the following was already discussed in this thread, I didn't read past this comment.

First, I would suggest that while WWs are hosts for the souls of dead Starks, dragons are the hosts for the souls of unborn Targaryens. Cold preserves but fire consumes. Danaerys' unborn child's soul is in all three dragons (A head must have three dragons).

This has many interesting ramifications, for example it could mean that the Targaryen female line is the one that actually is 'the blood of the dragon' (they breed the dragons). I tried to track the Targaryen misscarriages that were deformed (like Dany's) and interestingly enough the last such happened on the day the Dance of Dragons started (where all the dragons died) until the day the dragons were reborn by Danaerys. But there were also non-Targaryen women who birthed such deformities, Maegor's wifes, so maybe both male and female Targaryens can sire dragon-souls. Maegor was the only child of the female Targaryen line though.

It also provides a new insight into Baelor's Maidenvault. It can't be a coincidence that directly after most dragons died, all female Targaryen of breeding age were locked away. 

I think as long as there are dragons in the world this process of soul-transfer happens naturally if egg and unborn are in proximity (achieved through the Targaryen praxis of putting eggs in the cradle). Which is why Baelor locked them away while there was still at least one dragon alive (Sheepstealer). But if all dragons are dead you need something more dramatic to transfer the soul - Blood&Fire.

This also puts a new spin on the Blackfyre conflicts because Daemon I. represented the female Targaryen line. How Danaerys was able to birth dragons when the female line was lost with the Blackfyres is anyones guess (I have a few). It would also mean that the male Blackfyre line and its extinction is of no significance.

 

 

Second, I want to ask you where you think these old Stark souls were between the Long Night and the present story? Do you still believe that the WWs always were around (and the Stark souls with them)? But why do they need Craster's sons now if that is the case?

You might remember my theory that they chilled in the Heart of Winter all that time. We know Heart Trees can store souls and we know the Heart of the Undying stored souls.

 

Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.

I can t agree with almost anything you have said. I simply don t understand why so many people like the transfer of souls to dragons thing and even less to ww.

We have seen than when a skinchanger transfers his soul into an animal the animal adopts certain behaviours of the skinchanger. This can be seen as when orel died his eagle hated jon and this is the only case we know for sure of a human soul inside of an animal in the first 4 books. I think this invalidates the possibility of mirri soul being inside a dragon because that dragon wouldn t want to be near danny and would probably have attaked the dothriaki. In regards to the other souls, what is the use of transfering blank souls (newborns) into animals? It has no use or significance... I think it makes much more sense that in order to birth dragons they have to consume bodies/(also souls if you like) and that only targaryens can naturally ride dragons because they are the ones making the sacrifices (for other people they would need one of the magical horns for example). The interesting part is what must be the relation of the sacrífices to the person that is sacrificing in order for the dragons to hatch. If this theory has any merit it would need to be somethig that targs want to keep a secret even from other targs and that the knowledge was lost during the dance of dragons because the only targs that know the specifics were killed. Much of these arguments can be used for the ww. Why would dead starks want to kill people? and what is the use of tranfering blank souls into ww? Here I think the importante thing is to use the power in the blood of the descendants of the first men to create ww.

 

Then for the get out clause, I would like to ask you what you think about the crows in Bloodraven cave? We know they have remnants of previous people inside them and at the same time we know crows have short lifespans. So I am not so sure if skinchangers can get out of animals or not...

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I don't think secrecy or "blank souls" comes into it. The Targaryens clearly knew they could become dragons but had lost the knowledge of how it was done, while as for the Starks, as I said its not a question of blank souls but of blank, cloned bodies.

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If an other was a stark’s soul, it is still not plausible for them to want to kill other Starks such as Jon. It’s possible that souls absorbed into the Weirwoods would become part of a network of Others, similar   to the way that the weirwoods allow Bran and Bloodraven to see through a network and through crows and other animals. In one scene Bran sees a man sacrificed to the  weirwood. What if, similar to the way that Crasters sons were sacrificed and turned into others, the men and children feared the weirwood and the others that they can use, and sacrificed to them to ensure their safety. It is also strange that the wights are seen first by Jon at the heart tree beyond the wall, where the souls may be absorbed and given to the network. Also, I know that wights are different than Others, but it still plausible to think that the Others may have better control of Wights near weirwoods or that the souls of the men may be retained inside of the hearts tree. If the Others are controlled through the weirwood network, who else would control them besides... Bloodraven! And who controls him... The children of the Forest!!!

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11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think secrecy or "blank souls" comes into it. The Targaryens clearly knew they could become dragons but had lost the knowledge of how it was done, while as for the Starks, as I said its not a question of blank souls but of blank, cloned bodies.

You said that the sword stoped starks from becoming ww. So you were saying some entity would enter the dead stark body and transform it into a ww? Because I am good with any of those things as long as you aren t implying that a ww has a stark soul inside of him. That I don t agree...

The targs had the knowledge about birthing dragons and lost it within 1 or 2 generations (I think). The important part is that in less than 50 (?) years they lost this knowledge. So there must have been a lot of secrecy involved. I don t think it would be possible to lose common knowledge within such a small timeframe. And I don t think it is clear that targs could become dragons. We know in ancient valyria dragons were very hard to control and they even needed horns and whips... In more recente times we have dany dragons. There is no way mirri's soul is inside a dragon. If it was she would have attack the dothriaki by now...

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2 hours ago, divica said:

You said that the sword stoped starks from becoming ww. So you were saying some entity would enter the dead stark body and transform it into a ww? Because I am good with any of those things as long as you aren t implying that a ww has a stark soul inside of him. That I don t agree...

The targs had the knowledge about birthing dragons and lost it within 1 or 2 generations (I think). The important part is that in less than 50 (?) years they lost this knowledge. So there must have been a lot of secrecy involved. I don t think it would be possible to lose common knowledge within such a small timeframe. And I don t think it is clear that targs could become dragons. We know in ancient valyria dragons were very hard to control and they even needed horns and whips... In more recente times we have dany dragons. There is no way mirri's soul is inside a dragon. If it was she would have attack the dothriaki by now...

Its made pretty explicit that the swords are there to keep the Starks in their graves

As to the loss of knowledge, if its passed on from father to son within a single family it doesn't take much to lose it. We have at least three instances in the Stark line, and I understand similar problems in the Targaryen line

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8 hours ago, divica said:

You said that the sword stoped starks from becoming ww. So you were saying some entity would enter the dead stark body and transform it into a ww? Because I am good with any of those things as long as you aren t implying that a ww has a stark soul inside of him. That I don t agree...

The targs had the knowledge about birthing dragons and lost it within 1 or 2 generations (I think). The important part is that in less than 50 (?) years they lost this knowledge. So there must have been a lot of secrecy involved. I don t think it would be possible to lose common knowledge within such a small timeframe. And I don t think it is clear that targs could become dragons. We know in ancient valyria dragons were very hard to control and they even needed horns and whips... In more recente times we have dany dragons. There is no way mirri's soul is inside a dragon. If it was she would have attack the dothriaki by now...

The Stark kids 'become' wolves in their warg dreams and when they die, they have a second life; they become the wolf.  Is that in dispute?

Similarly, Dany has a dream where she is transformed into a dragon.  Her dream sounds very much like a wolf dream.  Is this just a dream or something similar to a wolf dream?

Not everyone can bond with a direwolf and similarly, not everyone can control a dragon without the use of horns and whips.  The Targs and the Starks are singled out from the general population in that regard.  We don't hear of Aegon the Conqueror or his sisters using whips and dragon horns.

However it happened, the Targs have lost the knowledge of hatching the dragon eggs.  A botch is made of it at Summerhall using pyromancers and wildfire, but no dragons are hatched.

Yet a certain lore persists.  Viserys' warnings about 'waking the dragon' and Aerys dreams of transforming into a dragon. 

Melisandre knows something about it when she claims that she can wake the great dragon and dragons from stone using blood sacrifice. Mirri Maaz Duur may or may not know something of it.  She certainly knew how to wake the old powers and knew that Dany was sacrificing her unborn son by coming into the tent.  Dany she sees the man limned in flame and the great wolf.  This is when Dany's wake the dragon dream occurs.  Dany is accused of being a maegi herself by Drogo's bloodriders.

But I don't think that Drogo's or Mirri's souls were captured in the eggs during the funeral rights.  Dany sees Drogo's soul rise up on a stallion and ascend into the starry night.  A dragon does burst from Mirri's brow but Mirri's sacrifice is holy blood.  She is a god's wife and this seems to be one of the requirements for hatching the eggs or perhaps it is this sacrifice that gives Dany temporary immunity from the fire. 

Spoiler

We get a hint of that in Aeron's chapter in Wow.  Euron is collecting holy men for sacrifice in some great sacrifice. 

Dany has a very specific ritual for the funeral pyre, laying the wood from ice to fire, the placing of the eggs (head, heart and groin) and it's not clear why she follows these steps.  Targs are never buried but burned on a fire and Aerys thinks that he too will burn and transform into a dragon this way.  How Dany comes by the ritual she follows is something of a mystery.  The result is that the dragons are hatched.  She can only survive the flames unburnt because magic is involved.  

We also know that dragon eggs were given to Targ children for some reason.  It is suggested that this is a bonding practice not unlike the direwolf pups bonding with the Stark kids.  So when Dany is given three eggs, were they previously bonded with someone.

My guess is that the black egg belonged to Rhaegar and he wears black armor to match the egg. Dany is most drawn to the black egg and dreams of Rhaegar in his black armor.  Then she dreams that she is wearing Rhaegar's armor.  If one skinchanges a black dragon or has a second life in a black dragon;  the spirit or soul is encased in black armor. 

Further, she dreams that this dragon sings to her.  This can only be Rhaegar for whom Dany sees both as a dragon and a man in her dreams.  Possibly even the man limned in flame from Mirri's ritual.  To me this implies, that Rhaegar's soul was captured in the black egg on his death and lies waiting to be wakened.  The dragon is her blood and covered in her blood, the sacrifices already given.

Rhaegar is reborn as a dragon.
 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Rhaegar died on the Trident and yet Dany dreams she is Rhaegar riding to the Trident to face a rebel host armored in ice, mounted on a dragon.  Aeron Damphair says that memories are the bones of the soul.  So who's memory of the Trident does Dany percieve?  Who's soul calls Rhaegar's death at the Trident a nightmare?  Who has just awakened?  Rhaegar was never meant to triumph at the Trident. His transformation into a dragon is what was meant to be.         

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1 hour ago, Bloodstone Emperor said:

If Jon was to be half Stark and half Targaryen (which is still a theory) , then is it not possible that upon his death he may be able to become a dragon and an Other, or maybe even an ice dragon. 

I have no idea.  Jon compares the Wall to an ice dragon.   

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

Jon nodded weakly. The door swung open. Pyp led them in, followed by Clydas and the lantern. It was all Jon could do to keep up with Maester Aemon. The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That's bad, Jon knew at once. That's very bad.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent. Dolorous Edd led them through with a torch in hand. Mully had the keys for the three gates, where bars of black iron as thick as a man's arm closed off the passage. Spearmen at each gate knuckled their foreheads at Jon Snow but stared openly at Val and her garron.

The Wall is made with old and powerful magic and according to Melisandre, Jon can use that power but avoids it.  So he may draw upon the power of the 'ice dragon' at some point.  I don't think he has to be a Targ to do that but more specifically a Stark, since they are the Kings of Winter.  

This theory that Jon must have targ blood to ride the dragon or fulfill the prophecy comes from Dany's vision in the HoU where Rhaegar talks about the song of ice and fire; the dragon has the three heads and one more is required.  It depends on what you think it means and what Rhaegar actually knew about the prophecy.

I think he knew more about it than we're told.  His solo trips to Summerhall with his harp could imply that he met with the Ghost of High Heart and traded songs for dreams.  She is the one associated with Jenny of Oldstones and the tragedy of Summerhall... so then she is the woods who made the prophecy to begin with.  It makes sense that Rhaegar would seek her out and that he would change his mind at some point about being the PwiP himself in favor of his son.  He seems to have discussed these things with Aemon who mentions dreams but not the dreamer and dragon eggs.  The actual prophecy according to Barristan goes:

- the prince was promised that.... will come from the line of

- this is slightly different from the form it takes upon repetition: the prince that was promised... will come from the line of

What was the prince promised?  At any rate, Rhaegar names Aegon the PwiP and I assume he had a reason.  Aegon harkens back to Aegon the Conqueror who brought peace, prosperity and justice to the realm and this seems in keeping with Rhaegar's wishes during his own life and the reason for his opposition to his father, after the events at Duskendale.  Aegon the Conqueror destroyed Harrenhal perhaps with the permission of the old gods and Rhaegar in seeking out the GoHH is also communing with the old gods.  Whatever he knows about Lyanna and Jon comes from her, I suspect.  The reason he looked twice at Lyanna at the tourney.    

The dragon with three heads has come to mean that there will be three dragon riders and they must have Targ blood.  But is that really what it means?  What happens if Victarion gets his hands on a dragon which seems a good possibility?  Or Martin decides to kill off one of the dragons, another possibility.  He's already killed off two direwolves.  

It seems to me that the three heads of the dragon have more to do with the symbolic placement of dragon eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre, representing; the mind, body and soul.   The body of the dragon (Drogon), the soul of the dragon (Rhaegar) and the mind of the dragon (Dany) combined into one.  So when Rhaegar says there must be one more; he isn't talking about Jon; but Dany the one who has to bring about his rebirth and hatch dragons from stone.... "that this is the way it was meant to be".

The prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn might very well be about Rhaegar reborn as a "dragon god", the red sword of justice.  The prophecy is specifically about the firey side of the song of ice and fire.        

 

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its made pretty explicit that the swords are there to keep the Starks in their graves

As to the loss of knowledge, if its passed on from father to son within a single family it doesn't take much to lose it. We have at least three instances in the Stark line, and I understand similar problems in the Targaryen line

Agreed on all points--as to the specific instance of the Targaryens losing significant family lore, it seems highly likely that the Dance of the Dragons (perhaps with some active 'assistance' from the Citadel) is at the root. The two claimants (and her immediate heirs, in the case of Rhaenyra) died during the conflict, and it is Aegon III the Dragonbane who ruled in the aftermath; I would guess that, as the perceived heir, Rhaenyra was the recipient of whatever dragonlore her father had to pass on, and that knowledge was lost with her death.

Though, that said, I'm not entirely convinced that souls transferring into dragons was standard operating procedure for either the Targaryens or Valyria--the significance of Dany's pyre (at least as I always interpreted it as a reader) isn't just that she hatched the eggs, but that she gave life to cold, dead stone--that she performed a resurrection.

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4 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Though, that said, I'm not entirely convinced that souls transferring into dragons was standard operating procedure for either the Targaryens or Valyria--the significance of Dany's pyre (at least as I always interpreted it as a reader) isn't just that she hatched the eggs, but that she gave life to cold, dead stone--that she performed a resurrection.

Oh! Happy New Year, Matthew!

Not only does she perform a resurrection, the life of her child is exchanged from someone long dead, thus her own child was long dead.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh! Happy New Year, Matthew!

Not only does she perform a resurrection, the life of her child is exchanged from someone long dead, thus her own child was long dead.

While I'm still inclined to go with my signature line [a clue as subtle as a train crash] ultimately I reckon that this is on the one hand about preserving long dead Starks, but what is consumed to preserve the Targaryens? Danaerys doesn't appear ro be consumed by the flames but is she truly human or is she akin to Melisandre?

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42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While I'm still inclined to go with my signature line [a clue as subtle as a train crash] ultimately I reckon that this is on the one hand about preserving long dead Starks, but what is consumed to preserve the Targaryens? Danaerys doesn't appear ro be consumed by the flames but is she truly human or is she akin to Melisandre?

Sorry, we're not given much to go on regarding the Starks and so I have to look at what we are given for the Targs for some comparison.

The dragon dream where she is burned and remade:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

The cleansing fire is a spiritual fire and perhaps her mortality is taken from her at this point.  I'm not sure this is the same as Melisandre's experience of agony and an ecstasy in her transformation.  The fiery heart of Red Rahloo is comparable to the Christian holy spirit:

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The Bible describes God as “a consuming fire”, so it is not surprising that fire often appears as a symbol of God’s presence. . Fire has many times been an instrument of God’s judgment  and a sign of His power.

For obvious reasons, fire was important for the Old Testament sacrifices. The fire on the altar of burnt offering was a divine gift, having been lit originally by God Himself. God charged the priests with keeping His fire lit  and made it clear that fire from any other source was unacceptable.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-fire.html

However, in this story I think that R'hllor exists in the dragon pit of the Great Red Temple in Volantis. :D

Sorry, I don't have anything on how Starks are preserved.  I agree they are meant to be kept in the crypts with cold iron and who knows what other power keeps them there.

When Aemon says that ice preserves; is he talking about the power of the Wall?  I'm not sure how Jon can use it.  Melisandre equates it with shadows she can make, and so is the power of the Wall used to make the white shadows?   When Patchface says that under the sea, the crows are white as snow; is he talking about the WW?  Are the white crows then resurrected brothers of the Night's Watch?  That seems another possibility to me.  Their disdain for Waymar Royce a reflection of their experience with him?  Were they really looking for Jon Snow to show up?

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It seems to me that the iconography of the shining sword on a black background, the connection to the dawn sword fits nicely with the oath of the Night's Watch.  We don't have a description of the hilt or pommel of the sword; but I'm guessing it contains a diamond... the heart of a fallen star.  If Melisandre can draw power from her ruby; can power be drawn from a diamond?  Or more specifically, if Jon can draw power from the Wall; can it be channeled through a sword?

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

"Best you start thinking," Noye warned him. "That, or sleep with a dagger by your bed. Now go."

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

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On 12/27/2017 at 3:06 PM, LynnS said:

 

The dragon with three heads has come to mean that there will be three dragon riders and they must have Targ blood.  But is that really what it means?  What happens if Victarion gets his hands on a dragon which seems a good possibility?  Or Martin decides to kill off one of the dragons, another possibility.  He's already killed off two direwolves.  

     

 

A good question and what we don't know is why

Some time ago there was an SSM in which GRRM said something to the effect that it wasn't necessary for all three heads of the dragon to be Targaryens. This was popularly interpreted as meaning that two of the dragon riders [note the subtle change] would be Jon and Danaerys Targaryen and the third Tyrion Lannister.

All things are possible, but why must there be three? Its a number that comes up a lot of course, not least in Aegon the Conqueror and his consorts, but he never claimed to be the Prince, he may have consciously emulated the three heads of the dragon, but if it simply takes the form of three dragon riders why the fuss. While we don't know the prophecy the requirement that there must be three suggests that the three are equal and that the three are necessary to accomplish something; hypothetically each turning three launch keys simultaneously, or each standing on one of the points of a triangle surrounding something.

Whatever it turns out to be, its not going to be as straightforward as a dragon rider and two wingmen.

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