Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Happy New year Heretics.

Yes - Happy New Year, all! 

  

[JNR]

21 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

But this is sort of the baseline interpretation, for me... snow is deadly, and the name "Snow" is correspondingly unfortunate.

For the Watch, especially if north of the Wall, it is:

21 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

snow's nothing a black brother wants to hear about

But I'm not sure this applies to the free folk, who unlike the Watch aren't in hostile territory, and who are more accustomed to severe winter conditions in which they can't just retreat to castles with underground passages between buildings.  (Craster's keep seems to be the limit of free folk architecture.)

27 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

So if "all records of Night's King" were at some point destroyed, one wonders when (or where) that happened.

I agree with Black Crow that at the time, this would have meant, at minimum, deleting his name from any lists of Lords Commander.  Which would probably have been very short lists.

30 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

(Maybe the Andals just bashed all the "runes on rocks," back in the day?)

If the tales tell it true, it was the First Men, long before.  But personal memories and spoken accounts can't so easily be eradicated, and that's why 

31 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

you can read about him in "those old histories" studied at the Citadel

And for a culture like the free folk, that never had much in the way of written language and probably took verbal information seriously as a result, we might guess there was more accuracy in the stories.  

If true, this would also explain why we're told:

Quote

We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

...at the time, this would have meant, at minimum, deleting his name from any lists of Lords Commander.  Which would probably have been very short lists.

Very short lists, carved in "runes on rocks."  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Just a wild guesstual question here, but, could the 'Snow is an evil name' concept come from a long standing dislike of the Andals by First Men/Free Folk? We all know the tense history between the two cultures, and it seems the Andals also brought the negative connotation of "bastard" along with them, and with that negative connotation came the bastard surnames and the denigrating hierarchy.

I just find it funny that Tormund makes his comments about bastards being just as good as other people (will have to find the quote), and that another way to refer to bastards is "natural" which seems to fit the personal perspective of the author.
 

Found it:

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

“No, but I …” What can I say that he will believe? “I am still too young to wed.”

“Wed?” Tormund laughed. “Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?”

Jon could feel himself turning red again. “She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her.”

“You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?”

“I might get her with child.”

“Aye, I’d hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where’s the harm in that?”

Words failed him for a moment. “The boy … the child would be a bastard.”

“Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?”

“No, but—”

“You’re bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o’ moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted.”

“I will not father a bastard.”

Tormund shook his shaggy head. “What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don’t want her?”

“Steal? I never …”

“You did,” said Tormund. “You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?”

“I took her prisoner.”

“You made her yield to you.”

“Yes, but … Tormund, I swear, I’ve never touched her.”

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a wild guesstual question here, but, could the 'Snow is an evil name' concept come from a long standing dislike of the Andals by First Men/Free Folk? We all know the tense history between the two cultures, and it seems the Andals also brought the negative connotation of "bastard" along with them, and with that negative connotation came the bastard surnames and the denigrating hierarchy.

I just find it funny that Tormund makes his comments about bastards being just as good as other people (will have to find the quote), and that another way to refer to bastards is "natural" which seems to fit the personal perspective of the author.
 

I imagine that this bit is part of the hints GRRM is providing about the ancient clash between First Men that ended in the creation of the Wall and the Free Folk staying behind and partially remembering what happened.

Quote

"I'm Jon Snow."

She flinched. "An evil name."

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"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out." You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

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The hostages went first—one hundred boys between the ages of eight and sixteen. "Your blood price, Lord Crow," Tormund declared. "I hope the wailing o' their poor mothers don't haunt your dreams at night."

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

The simplest answer to this is the fact that the word "snow" itself carries obvious negative associations, north of the Wall.

This was always the way I'd interpreted Ygritte's reaction as well--winter is (presumably) harsh for the Free Folk, so I'd imagine that any name that evokes it might be viewed in a negative light.

There's also the specific context of Ygritte's personal experiences; it's not clear how long the Free Folk have been under attack by the WWs and the wight horde, but Ygritte is young enough that she may have spent a significant chunk of her life with the doom of Long Night 2.0 looming over her.

That said, JNR raises two points that I find convincing: the Free Folk may very well remember the true name of the Night's King - given that they have no in-built reason to have scrubbed his identity, nor to variously attribute his identity to rival Houses in their retellings - and the Night's King may have been a bastard, giving "Snow" as a surname an added layer of 'evil' for the Free Folk.

What I question is the idea that the NK was not just a Snow, but specifically named Jon Snow--primarily because, by this point in the story, I would like to see more reactions from the Free Folk that would reinforce or foreshadow this idea.

The return of the Others coinciding with a new Lord Commander that has the same name as the legendary Night's King would seem such an uncanny repetition of history that I would think that some of the Free Folk that Jon interacts with over the span of ADWD would have reacted to him with a greater degree of superstitious terror and suspicion. Granted, it's been a while since I read ADWD, so maybe the subtle hints are there, and will stand out on a re-read.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That said, JNR raises two points that I find convincing: the Free Folk may very well remember the true name of the Night's King - given that they have no in-built reason to have scrubbed his identity, nor to variously attribute his identity to rival Houses in their retellings - and the Night's King may have been a bastard, giving "Snow" as a surname an added layer of 'evil' for the Free Folk.

Well, I sort of like the idea overall. It does seem clear that the free folk know things the kneelers have forgotten... that they have their own (oral) histories, myths, legends, etc.  And so it's intriguing to to guess that Night's King figures into that knowledge somehow.

But I struggle with this "name recognition" theory a little bit. Because, as best I can tell, the concepts of (1) bastardy and (2) surnames seem peculiarly non-wildling in origin and significance.  As Tormund later points out, Ygritte's own willingness to couple with Jon highlights just how little such things really matter to her. (She may think the name is evil, but she must not think he is... and she doesn't seem particularly averse to bearing children by him, even if elsewhere they might share that evil name.) 

 

ETA: And would Night's King have had a surname thousands of years ago, when the Wall was a relatively new thing? 

[LynnS]

59 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

ETA: And would Night's King have had a surname thousands of years ago, when the Wall was a relatively new thing?

Or surnames like snow, sand, storm, stone etc?  When does this naming convention appear?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Alternatively, perhaps Ygritte was recently reading LOTR in French... and simply misheard Jon's response:

Quote

"I gave you my name."

"I'm jaunes anneaux."

She flinched. "An evil name."

In which case, it's perfectly understandable why she flinched.  

Though this scenario raises additional questions, it may help explain the difficulty Ygritte has giving up on the relationship.  

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

(The audio feature at that link is definitely worth a try. The more I hear Google Translate pronouce "jaunes anneaux", the more convincing it sounds!)

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Or surnames like snow, sand, storm, stone etc?  When does this naming convention appear?

Its a good question. It seems to relate to some dominant feature of the area and how its people are shaped by their environment. Snow in that sense may be logical and innocuous, but on the other hand its also synonymous with Winter and we all know what that means

[JNR]

5 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

And would Night's King have had a surname thousands of years ago, when the Wall was a relatively new thing? 

It seems that he could have in the myth, at least, because

Quote

till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage

Ergo there were surnames then, if the myth is correct on that point.

(However, I still think that if there was a Brandon who "founded the Stark line," as we're told the Builder did, that's what it means -- that he was the first to adopt the Stark surname.)

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

When does this naming convention appear?

That's a never-answered question in canon, though the fact that the free folk still don't have them is certainly suggestive that the First Men originally didn't either.

Another related tidbit here.  I'm not convinced Ygritte was referring to the Night's King in mentioning this evil name Jon had (whether she meant "Snow" or "Jon Snow"), but I do think the odds are fairly good that whatever that evil was, it was connected (in her head) to this other never-explained evil she brings up here:

Quote

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

And she hates the Wall and refers to it with anger. 

Now, if we guess "blood" to be Ygritte's verbal shorthand for human sacrifice, it does appear to link logically to

Quote

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed

Particularly if we recall that that early in the Watch's history -- a time when there had only supposedly been thirteen LCs -- the Wall was still being built, per GRRM:

Quote

It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its present height

So in summary, I find it plausible, though not certain, that Ygritte thinks of the Night's King as an evil figure who was around at a time the Wall was still being constructed and who also sacrificed people, possibly as part of the process of its construction... and who was also named "Snow" or "Jon Snow."

Whether Ygritte is right about any/all of that is, of course, another topic.  But it seems a decent guess about what she thinks.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

 

That's a never-answered question in canon, though the fact that the free folk still don't have them [surnames] is certainly suggestive that the First Men originally didn't either.

 

Surnames are just something for people who belong to a house

Its the simple question of legitimacy.

Robb Stark became lord of Winterfell because he was the lawful son of Eddard Stark

Jon on the other hand is also the son of Eddard Stark [to the world at least] but because he's not his lawful son he doesn't inherit and this is signified by his name

A good example is the prison governor, Longwaters. His father was somebody's illegitimate son and so named Waters. However he himself was his father's lawful son and so signified this by taking the name Longwaters

The commons, having no lands or titles to inherit don't bother, just as the Free-folk don't. Bronn is just Bronn and Walton is called Steelshanks just by way of a nickname.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Surnames are just something for people who belong to a house

Unless you're a bastard in the Seven Kingdoms... in which case your surname indicates your exclusion from a house.

But that's essentially the point I was making above: that neither bastardy, nor a surname would signify the same things to Free Folk that they would south of the Wall.  So whatever made Ygritte flinch at the name "Jon Snow"... it likely comes from some other direction.

And again, I think it would be odd to find a figure in Free Folk mythology who had a surname.  Though I don't disagree that it's possible, as JNR points out:

11 hours ago, JNR said:

It seems that he could have in the myth, at least

...I'm just not sure the Free Folk would understand it as a surname.  More likely, their story would refer to "John of the Snow" or some such - and Ygritte would simply make the obvious connection.

 

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or surnames like snow, sand, storm, stone etc?  When does this naming convention appear?

I went looking for info on this, just to double check.  And there's really nothing to date the practice. Twice in A Game of Thrones, it is attributed to "custom" - and it appears in the very first chapter, which suggests to me that the idea is firmly baked into the bones of GRRM's story.

This from Chapter 1:

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the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.  (1.01, BRAN)

And this from Catelyn's arrival in the Vale:

Quote

Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. (1.34, CATELYN)

(Sounds like Catelyn would not be able to answer this question either.)

I found nothing on the subject in the World book either, for what that's worth.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The commons, having no lands or titles to inherit don't bother, just as the Free-folk don't. Bronn is just Bronn and Walton is called Steelshanks just by way of a nickname.

But what about people like Masha Heddle? She has a surname, or does it come from something else?

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But what about people like Masha Heddle? She has a surname, or does it come from something else?

Quote

A heddle is an integral part of a loom. Each thread in the warp passes through a heddle,[1] which is used to separate the warp threads for the passage of the weft.[1][2] The typical heddle is made of cord or wire, and is suspended on a shaft of a loom. Each heddle has an eye in the center where the warp is threaded through.[3] As there is one heddle for each thread of the warp, there can be near a thousand heddles used for fine or wide warps. A handwoven tea-towel will generally have between 300 and 400 warp threads,[4] and thus use that many heddles.

So perhaps the Crossroads Inn is a loom of sorts?

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So perhaps the Crossroads Inn is a loom of sorts?

That makes perfect sense! Thank you for sharing that . So, I guess GRRM gave Masha a surname out of plot necessity, and it is not that commoners have surnames, in general.

Yeah, the Inn at the Crossroads has always been part of the integral web of the story... even before AGOT starts. Everyone seems to pass through there at some critical point in their arc.

[Tucu]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

But what about people like Masha Heddle? She has a surname, or does it come from something else?

She is from House Heddle, a house of landed knights. An ancestor appears in the Mystery Knight.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

the Inn at the Crossroads has always been part of the integral web of the story... even before AGOT starts. Everyone seems to pass through there at some critical point in their arc.

Uh huh.  With the crossroads, Arya's Needle, a Gods Eye, etc... a Reed here and there... a missing collection of tapestries at nearby Castle Darry... and suddenly you've got yourself a bunch of mysterious textile metaphors. Or whatever.  

[wolfmaid7]

The idea of the NK being named Jon Snow is intriguing,but I have an issue with Ygritte's reaction to the "name drop."

I think it was brought up before but I wish there was some inclination of when the bastard sir names came into play.

It may be a continuity issue from a historical point,but its irking me.

That being said,I do like JNR's connection with the sacrifice on the Wall to being the underpinning to Ygritte's reaction to Jon's name.

However, the same problem exists going forward.If the Free folk do have a memory of the NK being named Jon Snow; shouldn't they seriously be tripping big time?

I mean talk about a potent.I would kill him for fear of a repeat.Especially,if I was a wise man or woman among the  Free folk; I would be thinking this doesn't bode well for me and mine.

They have notions about Crows,that they aren't to be trusted.

Could it be that this could have been the case and it was a faction among the Free folk took him out? A preemptive strike to prevent.