Black Crow

Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

244 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know if it is worth the effort researching the clangor abilities of small bells. My first assumption would simply be that the thickness of the material and the form of the bell will create the sound characteristic while the size will determine the volume. 

This is another one of the cases where we don't know the in world details (this time the outfit of other jesters) but any effort in this direction seems to be complete overkill. 

The sound of bells as foreshadowing comes up in the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World.  A clangor is a loud, discordant sound.  It's worth the effort to understand what Patchface is all about.  The clangor he sets up with his presence is a deliberate choice by the author especially since he is so strange and prophetic.  He does seem a dangerous character that hides in plain sight.   I don't think there is a simple explanation for him.  He isn't just somebody who happened to come back from the dead.  He's a remnant rather than a simple-minded court Jester.    

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53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The sound of bells as foreshadowing comes up in the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World.  A clangor is a loud, discordant sound.  It's worth the effort to understand what Patchface is all about.  The clangor he sets up with his presence is a deliberate choice by the author especially since he is so strange and prophetic.  He does seem a dangerous character that hides in plain sight.   I don't think there is a simple explanation for him.  He isn't just somebody who happened to come back from the dead.  He's a remnant rather than a simple-minded court Jester.    

The ony thing that makes me so unsure about Patchface is the character of Camaris from "Memory, Sorrow, Thorne".  The first three books of ASOIAF came out in the 90s after the series was finished and I am never sure if he should be an hommage, a mirror, a play on the series or seriously an independent character. Or if GRRM was influenced by that series at all. 

if we go full "Memory, Sorrow, Thorne" tincap, then Patchface's bells and Rhaegar's harp are connected and form part of the song. But that is probably too much independent thought for this forum.

I'm not refusing Patchface as a central part of the story, a part of me just doesn't want the overlooked simpleton that is a central part of the story and know things ... again.  

Edited by SirArthur

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The ony thing that makes me so unsure about Patchface is the character of Camaris from "Memory, Sorrow, Thorne".  The first three books of ASOIAF came out in the 90s after the series was finished and I am never sure if he should be an hommage, a mirror, a play on the series or seriously an independent character. Or if GRRM was influenced by that series at all. 

if we go full "Memory, Sorrow, Thorne" tincap, then Patchface's bells and Rhaegar's harp are connected and form part of the song. But that is probably too much independent thought for this forum.

I'm not refusing Patchface as a central part of the story, a part of me just doesn't want the overlooked simpleton that is a central part of the story and know things ... again.  

I'm not familiar with Memory, Sorrow,Thorne tincap at all. 

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3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The ony thing that makes me so unsure about Patchface is the character of Camaris from "Memory, Sorrow, Thorne".  The first three books of ASOIAF came out in the 90s after the series was finished and I am never sure if he should be an hommage, a mirror, a play on the series or seriously an independent character. Or if GRRM was influenced by that series at all. 

I think it's pretty fair to say M,S,T has had some impact on ASOIAF; Williams and GRRM co-hosted a Q&A at some point and GRRM spoke about M,S,T, if I'm not mistaken. 

Some similarities can be chalked up to parallel thinking - eg, the Sithi/Gardenborn and CotF's place in the lore, and their relationship with humanity, is inspired in both series by the Irish Invasion Myths - but other stuff, like Elias' decline under the influence of the Red Priest is so close to the relationship between Stannis and Melisandre that I think the most generous thing that can be said is that it is an homage on GRRM's part--if not outright borrowing. 

In any case, I see what you mean in comparing Patchface and Camaris, though my gut feeling is that Patchface isn't going to turn out to have such an important identity. I'd always taken it that the significance of Patchface is that he is not entirely natural after the shipwreck; at the least, he seems to have prophetic visions, and I'd go so far as to speculate that he might have died and been reborn beneath the waves, given that death isn't always so permanent on Planetos.

Edited by Matthew.

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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In any case, I see what you mean in comparing Patchface and Camaris, though my gut feeling is that Patchface isn't going to turn out to have such an important identity.

It is the middle ground between being of no importance and being Camaris I have my problems with. The red line I cannot draw because everything in his existence including his abilities even before the shipwreck can turn out to be central. 

Edited by SirArthur

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21 hours ago, SirArthur said:

It is the middle ground between being of no importance and being Camaris I have my problems with. The red line I cannot draw because everything in his existence including his abilities even before the shipwreck can turn out to be central. 

I think he is a harbinger or a catalyst for some event that will affect Jon in some way.  It's a bit creepy that Shireen, Selyse, Melisandre and company will be taking up residence at the Night Fort.  Or at least that's the plan.  Patchface's lurching, jerky side-wise gait reminds me of spider crabs and other common spiders.  I wonder if ice spiders are creatures like Patchface.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

... Melisandre's vision of Patchface with a bloody mouth...

...big as hounds ...

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

.

Edited by LynnS

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A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

"My hand. What do you know of my hand?"

"I have seen you in the nightfires, Victarion Greyjoy. You come striding through the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, blind to the tentacles that grasp you at wrist and neck and ankle, the black strings that make you dance."

Is Victarion caught in a spider's web attached with black strings?  Does this also describe Othor and Small Paul who are sent after a specific target - black hounds/ice spiders?

Quote

 

The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

 

The Others ride horses of course; but do they ride mammoths and bears or does 'riding' mean control by other means?  A bear does show up at the Fist and no mention of being ridden by a WW.

Giant ice spiders who are men; moving in a lurching crab-like gait attached with black strings.

Edited by LynnS

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Returning to the Walkers, Thor Ragnarok will be released shortly and in preparation for it, both Junior and Junior-Junior sat me down to watch Thor [bear with me...]. This largely centres around a conflict with the Jotun or Ice Giants - who look and behave remarkably like the blue-eyed lot in the mummers version. They are not really the same, but the inspiration is clearly there. Now I know we're not supposed to discuss the mummers version and I don't propose to, but we do know that GRRM is using a lot of the Thor source stuff and the Wall has previously been compared to the Bifrost Bridge, so the question is:

Are the Walkers based on the Jotun [and their king] or have the mummers been deceived by the usual vague direction from GRRM?

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Probably a bit of both. GRRM seems have to have been a fan of Marvel comics in his youth and the designs of the White Walkers changed after the Thor film was released.

Edited by Tucu

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Are the Walkers based on the Jotun [and their king] or have the mummers been deceived by the usual vague direction from GRRM?

If you're talking in terms of aesthetics and visual design, I think the show's design is their interpretation of the prologue walkers:
 

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. 

With all due respect to GRRM, "gaunt and hard as old bones" does not exactly evoke the image of something that is beautiful--the latter being the description GRRM uses in interviews.

That said, I do think it's fair to say that Thor might have influenced the designs, as the show is full of visual homage and imitation (eg, the Harryhausen-esque skeletons in Season 4).

They've discussed certain other aspects of their depiction of the walkers over the years. For example, the language guy who developed Dothraki for the show also developed a Walker language before Season 1, that was mostly abandoned in the final product; D&D are of the opinion that the Walkers are more unsettling if they operate in silence.

Edit: Related to this topic, I'd personally thought they were copying the look of the Morlock leader that Jeremy Irons plays in the 2002 version of the Time Machine for the look of some of the Walkers, but the NK definitely looks like a ripoff of the Frost Giants from Thor.

Edited by Matthew.

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Probably a bit of both. GRRM seems have to have been a fan of Marvel comics in his youth and the designs of the White Walkers changed after the Thor film was released.

I've never read the original Marvel comics so don't know how true to them the film might be, but there's an interesting plot twist in the latter when Loki, son of Odin Allfather turns out to really be the son of the Ice King, taken from his ruined fortress, which in a lot of ways parallels Theon - and of course some might argue Jon although Theon fits much better.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

If you're talking in terms of aesthetics and visual design, I think the show's design is their interpretation of the prologue walkers:
 

With all due respect to GRRM, "gaunt and hard as old bones" does not exactly evoke the image of something that is beautiful--the latter being the description GRRM uses in interviews.

That said, I do think it's fair to say that Thor might have influenced the designs, as the show is full of visual homage and imitation (eg, the Harryhausen-esque skeletons in Season 4).

They've discussed certain other aspects of their depiction of the walkers over the years. For example, the language guy who developed Dothraki for the show also developed a Walker language before Season 1, that was mostly abandoned in the final product; D&D are of the opinion that the Walkers are more unsettling if they operate in silence.

Edit: Related to this topic, I'd personally thought they were copying the look of the Morlock leader that Jeremy Irons plays in the 2002 version of the Time Machine for the look of some of the Walkers, but the NK definitely looks like a ripoff of the Frost Giants from Thor.

Ultimately, you see I think that may be the problem in that the walkers [and the Nights King] in the mummers version may owe too much to Thor and too little to GRRM. They really are telling a different story.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I've never read the original Marvel comics so don't know how true to them the film might be, but there's an interesting plot twist in the latter when Loki, son of Odin Allfather turns out to really be the son of the Ice King, taken from his ruined fortress, which in a lot of ways parallels Theon - and of course some might argue Jon although Theon fits much better.

The design has changed a lot since the 60s, but you can find some close resemblances in Ymir (ice god ancestor to all the giants in Marvel comics), the ice giants and the early frost giants.

Loki being the son of Laufey (the king of the giants/frost giants) is also a Stan Lee's twist from the 60s. After killing Laufey, Odin proclaims Loki to be his son. If there is a parallel/inspiration there, did Ned kill Jon's father?

A few images for reference:

Image of Ymir from the 60s

The second character in that image is Surtur/Surtr, a character and mythical fire giant that carries a flaming or bright sword called the Twilight Sword or the Sword of Doom and is a key player in Ragnarök. The weapon reminds me of Lightbringer and the Sword of the Morning.

Ice Giants in the 60s

Odin adopting Loki in the 60s

 

Edited by Tucu

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ultimately, you see I think that may be the problem in that the walkers [and the Nights King] in the mummers version may owe too much to Thor and too little to GRRM. They really are telling a different story.

Given a total absence of motive and nuance (at present) to GRRM's Others as written, it is difficult to say what has been influenced by things GRRM has told them, and what is totally invented...there is little text from which to draw inspiration. As cited above, I think a case can be made that their depiction of the WWs was an attempt to be consistent with the "hard, gaunt" look described in the prologue--and perhaps to subtly parallel the weirwood faces.

As to the visual depiction of the Others, I'm not happy with what they've settled on, but I'm given the impression that a defining feature of the Others - the ice equipment - has been an issue; up until Season 6, the material they were using for ice weapons was prone to breaking apart, and it (IMO) looks pretty bad in any case, something I'm sure would only be exacerbated if they'd attempted to craft full suits of armor out of the stuff. 

In particular, I doubt they could have captured this quality:

Quote

Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took

without relying heavily on CGI, which introduces its own problems in both look and budget.

 

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5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

without relying heavily on CGI, which introduces its own problems in both look and budget.

 

Although...CGI would have been a fantastic way to portray GRRM's "Ice Sidhe." I would tend to picture something more like LOTR elves meshed with the effects of the watery face in the movie The Abyss or something akin to the translucence and fluid look in Terminator II; Utterly beautiful as they should be. 

Tuatha turned Fae, made ice.  Though there is a lot of fun mythology in the Sagas/Jotunheimr to be sure, the lithe Tuatha, shrouding themselves in mist, fighting the Fomorians (who harnessed the destructive powers of nature:CoTF) and being defeated by the Milesian newcomers (First Men) then being relegated to the underworld/unseen world, only to appear from time to time to grab a changeling (Craster) baby...might be a lot more obscure than Thor is modern culture, but very rich mythology nonetheless and so so so visually pleasing if the HBO coin were there to drop.

Edited by Aetta

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

The design has changed a lot since the 60s, but you can find some close resemblances in Ymir (ice god ancestor to all the giants in Marvel comics), the ice giants and the early frost giants.

Loki being the son of Laufey (the king of the giants/frost giants) is also a Stan Lee's twist from the 60s. After killing Laufey, Odin proclaims Loki to be his son. If there is a parallel/inspiration there, did Ned kill Jon's father?

A few images for reference:

Image of Ymir from the 60s

The second character in that image is Surtur/Surtr, a character and mythical fire giant that carries a flaming or bright sword called the Twilight Sword or the Sword of Doom and is a key player in Ragnarök. The weapon reminds me of Lightbringer and the Sword of the Morning.

Ice Giants in the 60s

Odin adopting Loki in the 60s

 

Yes, I can see GRRM picking up a lot from this Marvel version, especially the birth of Loki sequence, although obviously what we know and love is GRRM's interpretation and his own twists [and turns], that comment about Fafnr hiding in reptilian form also sounds a bit like the Targaryen dragon stuff we've been discussing.

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Given a total absence of motive and nuance (at present) to GRRM's Others as written, it is difficult to say what has been influenced by things GRRM has told them, and what is totally invented...there is little text from which to draw inspiration. As cited above, I think a case can be made that their depiction of the WWs was an attempt to be consistent with the "hard, gaunt" look described in the prologue--and perhaps to subtly parallel the weirwood faces.

As to the visual depiction of the Others, I'm not happy with what they've settled on, but I'm given the impression that a defining feature of the Others - the ice equipment - has been an issue; up until Season 6, the material they were using for ice weapons was prone to breaking apart, and it (IMO) looks pretty bad in any case, something I'm sure would only be exacerbated if they'd attempted to craft full suits of armor out of the stuff. 

In particular, I doubt they could have captured this quality:

without relying heavily on CGI, which introduces its own problems in both look and budget.

 

I agree, but my point is that I think GRRM may have mentioned the possible [probable?] Marvel connection and the mummers ran with that and the film version rather than the sidhe for practical reasons and in so doing appear to stuck far more closely to the Marvel story-line than GRRM is doing

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, I can see GRRM picking up a lot from this Marvel version, especially the birth of Loki sequence, although obviously what we know and love is GRRM's interpretation and his own twists [and turns], that comment about Fafnr hiding in reptilian form also sounds a bit like the Targaryen dragon stuff we've been discussing.

I found this quote in an interview with GRRM about Marvel's comics that supports the idea that they have influenced the Songs of Ice and Fire.

Quote

George R.R. Martin: Yes. It’s hard to understand, I think, from the vantage point of 2011 exactly what was going on in comics back in the early ’60s. The Marvel comics that I was writing letters to were really revolutionary for the time. Stan Lee was doing some amazing work. Up until then, the dominant comic book had been the DC comics, which at that time were always very circular: Superman or Batman would have an adventure, and at the end of the adventure they would wind up exactly where they were, and then the next issue would follow the same pattern. Nothing ever changed for the DC characters. 

The Marvel characters were constantly changing. Important things were happening. The lineup of the Avengers was constantly changing. People would quit and they would have fights and all of that, as opposed to DC, where everybody got along and it was all very nice, and of course all the heroes liked each other. None of this was happening. So really, Stan Lee introduced the whole concept of characterization [chuckles] to comic books, and conflict, and maybe even a touch of gray in some of the characters. And boy, looking back at it now, I can see that it probably was a bigger influence on my own work than I would have dreamed.

 

Edited by Tucu

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I am truly amazed, and please take it serious and not as criticism, how you carry on discussing tiny details of a book series that most likely will not be finished.

Meanwhile, I created another record to be released January 8th, 2018. You can already listen to it here:

www.soundcloud.com/alien-area

Any feedback is highly appreciated.

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