Black Crow

Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

244 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like the idea of the Night's King being a line of Brandon Starks starting with Brandon the Builder and ending with Brandon the Breaker. GRRM hints at similar events in the world book when Archmaester Glave says that Durran Godsgrief was a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name.

Hmmm. I like this idea myself. It works with the idea that BR was looking at “Brandon” Starks in particular. Might explain why BR chose Bran as opposed to Rickon despite the color of their wolves eyes. Also helps to explain the Night’s King imagery and parallels in Bran’s story. 

It does make me wonder about Ned’s brother Brandon, his untimely death, his tomb statue, and its missing sword...

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On 15.10.2017 at 2:19 PM, Black Crow said:

Ah, that get out clause!

By way of a recap: Varamyr believed that when a skinchanger's original body died the soul took refuge in a host, but couldn't then move on from there to another host and therefore experienced true death when that host died, if the soul had not already been absorbed into that of the host.

The get out clause may lie in the nature of white walkers and dragons. Both are the literally the embodiment of Ice and Fire. The walkers are Ice made flesh and the dragons are Fire made flesh. The white walkers, according to GRRM are created by magic and presumably the dragons also.

What I'm suggesting is that they were or are created to be immortal or near immortalbeen slain hosts for Stark and Targaryen souls and that in the Starks' case this was halted by the overthrow on the Nights King and the placing of cold iron swords on the statues to keep the souls in the bones.

Craster's sons, I don't know. Its possible that they are taken as a blood sacrifice, but it might also be the case that Craster himself carried the old Stark bloodline.

Ultimately, the point of all this is that if Jon has indeed been slain, he isn't necessarily trapped forever in Ghost as the Varamyr prologue suggests, but may have an out in treading lightly on the snow.

What a joy to come back from a hiatus to find you where I was all along! This is exactly my thinking. I have a few things to add and ask though. Apologies if the following was already discussed in this thread, I didn't read past this comment.

First, I would suggest that while WWs are hosts for the souls of dead Starks, dragons are the hosts for the souls of unborn Targaryens. Cold preserves but fire consumes. Danaerys' unborn child's soul is in all three dragons (A head must have three dragons).

This has many interesting ramifications, for example it could mean that the Targaryen female line is the one that actually is 'the blood of the dragon' (they breed the dragons). I tried to track the Targaryen misscarriages that were deformed (like Dany's) and interestingly enough the last such happened on the day the Dance of Dragons started (where all the dragons died) until the day the dragons were reborn by Danaerys. But there were also non-Targaryen women who birthed such deformities, Maegor's wifes, so maybe both male and female Targaryens can sire dragon-souls. Maegor was the only child of the female Targaryen line though.

It also provides a new insight into Baelor's Maidenvault. It can't be a coincidence that directly after most dragons died, all female Targaryen of breeding age were locked away. 

I think as long as there are dragons in the world this process of soul-transfer happens naturally if egg and unborn are in proximity (achieved through the Targaryen praxis of putting eggs in the cradle). Which is why Baelor locked them away while there was still at least one dragon alive (Sheepstealer). But if all dragons are dead you need something more dramatic to transfer the soul - Blood&Fire.

This also puts a new spin on the Blackfyre conflicts because Daemon I. represented the female Targaryen line. How Danaerys was able to birth dragons when the female line was lost with the Blackfyres is anyones guess (I have a few). It would also mean that the male Blackfyre line and its extinction is of no significance.



Second, I want to ask you where you think these old Stark souls were between the Long Night and the present story? Do you still believe that the WWs always were around (and the Stark souls with them)? But why do they need Craster's sons now if that is the case?

You might remember my theory that they chilled in the Heart of Winter all that time. We know Heart Trees can store souls and we know the Heart of the Undying stored souls.


Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.

Edited by Armstark

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1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Also if this get out clause ever gets used by Jon I am afraid Ghost will have to die to free the soul from the body.

Wow!  I like everything you've said.  I too think Ghost will have to die to free Jon's soul.  The only place we differ is in dragon eggs containing the souls of unborn children.  That may be true in part;  a bonding between unborn and egg; but I also think Targs can have a second life in their dragons and this what the valyrian sphinx depicts.  I think the soul transfer to dragon in a second life creates the Great Dragons or dragon gods of the Targs.

I also think it's possible that when Rhaegar died, his soul was transferred to his egg; the black egg in Dany's possession. This is the dragon she wakes and the one she sees in her dreams 'singing' to her.  I think Martin is giving us a very clever reincarnation of Rhaegar in Drogon.    

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I'm not sure either. I think that primarily the bonding is just that; establishing a bond which will allow the transference at death. In the case of Danaerys' children that transfer may have been early due to the death of her unborn Rhaego, whether Drogon and Rhaegal have been snaffled by the souls of Drogo and Mirri mar whatzerface is questionable unless they were secret Targaryens. The problem I see with infusing the eggs with the the souls of unborn children [as opposed to simply bonding] is that it requires an awful lot of dead children.

As to Jon and Ghost we may have to consider that to be the purpose of Ghost and all the other Stark direwolves all along.

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