Black Crow

Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

244 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that one of the over-arching themes which is emerging is that the magic is the same and centres around the migration of the soul; its just that Ice and Fire magic are using it in different ways. When I questioned describing the Faceless Men as using Valyrian magic, I was looking at the [mainstream] latter as representing Fire, I'm happy to go with disciples of Boash, but as they are dissidents they clearly stand outwith that mainstream and perhaps see themselves as a middle way between Ice and Fire.

I think we are in agreement. I was thinking of the shared core elements of magic referred in Bran's and Arya's chapters: darkness, third eye, trapped souls, soul transfer, skinchanging and abnegation of self.

I also like the parallel between Arya descending in darkness and finding a hall full of faces and Arianne doing the same in one of TWOW sample chapters.

Edited by Tucu

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

While I agree about the relevance of those POVs, I'm not sure that the Faceless Men represent Valyrian magic. The Faceless Men may represent the balance between Ice and Fire - same basic magic, same ruthlessness, but [perhaps paradoxically] the death of individuals rather than mass extinction

Wassuppp guys??? Nice to see that we are going strong in the drought.

I tend to agree with Faceless men not being Valyrian in nature.They do seem to have some similarities with skinchanging.I am especially intrigued by how the first Faceless man was said to have emerged.

On 10/19/2017 at 7:09 PM, JNR said:

Merely saying that he can't possibly (for instance) write five hundreds words a day because "things come up," and simultaneously turn out Fire and Blood Vol. 1 -- that is, hundreds of thousands of words about obscure Targaryens of interest to perhaps two percent of the fandom -- will never earn him the Best Book Hugo he craves.  And the odds of ASOIAF ever being finished will continue to fall by the day.

I take no release date huh???

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Old Ghis was built by slaves, but the Valaryian Freehold overthrew them.  Valaryia's own slaves became the faceless men, possibly deliberately causing the doom.  Now Dany is obsessed with ending slavery wherever she goes.  Could any of these be connected?

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6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The same goes for Quentyn, Arianne, Hotha, Aeron. Sansa stops being interesting as a POV once Littlefinger meets his giantkiller. 

I have high hopes for Arianne's POV.  We will learn more about Dany and Jon's past through her if you believe they were both infants in Dorne.  I also think we will learn more about the Daynes, Dawn, Ashara, the Tower of Joy, Darkstar and the next Sword of the Morning.

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I still think the Arya/Bran story can be compressed to advance the story. Thinking about it I prefere them the way they are written and not a Silmarillion version of events. The price for a real story seems just so high.

Edited by SirArthur

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

There is a lot of interesting stuff to unpack in this passage including the GoHH reference to Thoros as a pink priest; the old gods, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead; the ward against fire that seems to be employed such that Thoros won't be able to look into the fires, in this place.  They don't love the flames and remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.  Considering that the GoHH is addressing Thoros; one could ask whether the First Men used fire magic given that R'hllor's warrior priests are called the Fiery Hand and the Fourteen Flames could be just about anything including powerful fire mages.

I am curious about the stump and the meaning of this statement:

For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both.

The mature tree remembers the past; the acorn dreams of the future.  The tree becomes a stump at the end of it's life.
 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"I only have two."

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

The stump is the shrunken and feeble remnant of a mature tree when it has been cut down or when most of it's branches and trunk have fallen to the ground.  

The acorn and the oak is a reference to the Stark bloodline and perhaps it's origin in the Gardener bloodline at some point.  Greenseers are the wizened old men of the greenwood grafted onto the weirwood.

I found an interesting biblical reference to the 'stump':

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Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of a Great Tree
…14'He shouted out and spoke as follows: "Chop down the tree and cut off its branches, Strip off its foliage and scatter its fruit; Let the beasts flee from under it And the birds from its branches. 15"Yet leave the stump with its roots in the ground, But with a band of iron and bronze around it In the new grass of the field; And let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, And let him share with the beasts in the grass of the earth. 16"Let his mind be changed from that of a man And let a beast's mind be given to him, And let seven periods of time pass over him.…

My goodness... a band of iron and bronze?  Isn't that the crown or the Kings of Winter?  Changing his mind from that of a man and give him the mind of a beast sounds an awful of like skinchanging.  Although the meaning here for the purposes of bible study is quite different as it refers to insanity or a beastly nature.    Banding the stump with bronze and iron to secure it so that it will produce shoots and offspring, a continuation of the bloodline. 

This is an excerpt from the passages of a dream vision of a Great Tree representing a king.  It seems to be me that Martin is also drawing from biblical references as well as Norse and Celtic mythology when it comes to the Starks.  You can scroll through the entire dream vision here for the rest of it:

http://biblehub.com/daniel/4-15.htm  

 

Edited by LynnS

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7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Old Ghis was built by slaves, but the Valaryian Freehold overthrew them.  Valaryia's own slaves became the faceless men, possibly deliberately causing the doom.  Now Dany is obsessed with ending slavery wherever she goes.  Could any of these be connected?

I don't think that there's a significant difference between slavery in the old Ghiscari empire and slavery in the Valyrian, but something interesting is Master Benero's assertion that Danaerys the Dragonlord is Azor Ahai and that she will destroy the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the black walls of Volantis.

There are various seeming contradictions tied up in this which need resolving.

The Azor Ahai story/prophecy comes from out east. The "ancient books of Asshai" cited by Melisandre were written at the very time the Valyrians were dishing the Ghiscari Empire - which for the Ghiscari was certainly a "dark time". The story of of Azor Ahai slaying a monster, as I've pointed out before is far more consistent with slaying a dragon than a white walker. It therefore makes perfect sense for Azor Ahai to have been a defender of Ghis against the Valyrians and their dragons.

But Danaerys the Dragonlord is Valyrian and possesses dragons.

So she does, but she is also descended of Aegon [the conqueror] and back in the day when he was still only lord of Dragonstone he joined a coalition to fight [and defeat] the Old Blood of Valyria when they came busting out of Volantis intent on re-establishing the Empire.

There's therefore good precedent for Benero's expectations, but what about the dragons - and why don't the Old Blood have any?

A suggestion:

We're pretty sure that there's a very close link between the Starks and Ice, seen in the business of the Nights King and the current theory that the white walkers are the old Stark Lords. I've suggested that both walkers and dragons are mirrored in that they are a "different form of life" created by magic; Ice made Flesh and Fire made Flesh respectively. 

The answer to the Targaryen mystery may therefore be another mirror to the Starks, ie; the dragons have always been Targaryens, hence the need for whips, chains etc to allow other Valyrians to ride them. The Valyrian Empire was a perversion of the power of Fire and the Targaryen flight to Dragonstone represents a breach with that power in the same way that the Starks broke with Ice through the overthrow of the Nights King. 

And that brings us back to the old theory that if there is to be a resolution of the conflict between Ice and Fire it is down to the Starks and to the Targaryens, each to fix their own rather than proclaim that R+L=J will do it. 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

A suggestion:

We're pretty sure that there's a very close link between the Starks and Ice, seen in the business of the Nights King and the current theory that the white walkers are the old Stark Lords. I've suggested that both walkers and dragons are mirrored in that they are a "different form of life" created by magic; Ice made Flesh and Fire made Flesh respectively. 

The answer to the Targaryen mystery may therefore be another mirror to the Starks, ie; the dragons have always been Targaryens, hence the need for whips, chains etc to allow other Valyrians to ride them. The Valyrian Empire was a perversion of the power of Fire and the Targaryen flight to Dragonstone represents a breach with that power in the same way that the Starks broke with Ice through the overthrow of the Nights King. 

And that brings us back to the old theory that if there is to be a resolution of the conflict between Ice and Fire it is down to the Starks and to the Targaryens, each to fix their own rather than proclaim that R+L=J will do it. 

This may be although I'm not so sure that Dany won't be coming to Westeros:

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a football on the deck above her head. And something else

 

.

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28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This may be although I'm not so sure that Dany won't be coming to Westeros:

.

I don't have a problem [so far as this theory is concerned] with Danaerys the Dragonlord still coming to Westeros. GRRM has denied a return to Valyria as it is - although hinted at seeing it as it was which may mean we may learn the story of the Targaryens getting out of Dodge and why, just as we may find the truth about Winterfell.

Volantis, I similarly see as a side issue in that having finally won clear of Meereen [we hope] GRRM probably has more sense than to get embroiled in another foreign entanglement. Although I think the Trident dream has been interpreted too hopefully I stii suspect that GRRM is still following the original synopsis and will come to Westeros, but I also think that rather than finish up with a climactic battle on the Trident the true nature of the conflict with Ice may force Danaerys to confront her family's own version of the Musgrave ritual and the true nature of their relationship with Fire.

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Azor Ahai story/prophecy comes from out east. 

I think such notions should always come with an asterisk--we're talking about a setting where prophecy, farsight, and visions exist.

Using Dany as an example, many of her visions in the HoTU were of events happening (or that would happen) half a world away, including the Red Wedding:

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Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

If Dany, or some industrious scribe, had chosen the write all of these visions down, would the Qartheen warlocks and scholars spend the next several centuries impotently attempting to interpret "The Prophecy of the Wolf King,"  an event for which they have no accurate context, an event that doesn't actually relate to Qarth or its people--or even Dany, directly?

The point being that the "Legend" or prophecy of Azor Ahai may not be a historical recording of a true Eastern figure, or even someone who has ever lived at all--it may just be some vision someone had, which a bunch of cultures have retroactively contextualized, and appropriated for themselves.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There's therefore good precedent for Benero's expectations, but what about the dragons - and why don't the Old Blood have any?

Forgive me for citing a dubious source, but according to the show's History and Lore segment on Volantis, the so-called "Old Blood" are not actually descended from the noble families of Valyria, they're just 'mundane' Valyrians.

I'm not so sure about that particular premise, but GRRM asserts that the Targaryens are the only dragonlords to survive the Doom:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C90

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Were the Targaryens the only Valyrians who rode dragons?

They were the only dragonriders to survive the Doom.

 

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There is also Melisandre's interest in the Great Other, the ancient enemy and her place at the Wall. 
 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

 

She says she didn't cross half the world to put a vain king on an empty throne.

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17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I take no release date huh???

The most recent info on this I've heard is from August, when in his LJ, GRRM said three things, basically:

1. He thought Fire and Blood Volume 1 would be out in about a year and a half -- end of 2018 or so.

2. He thought it was possible TWOW would be published around the same time... but wasn't sure.

3. He said Fire and Blood was more of his "fake history," reinforcing the idea that it can't be trusted and minimizing the fan incentive to buy or read it (exactly as he did with the World book, in saying the fans couldn't know what parts of it to believe).

Personally, I would rather he prioritize the novels over something he himself says is fake.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran II

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you."

Bran did his best, although he did not think he ever really fooled her. Since his father would not forbid it, she turned to others. Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed. There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. None of them had ever shown the slightest bit of interest in pecking out his eyes.

Going back to this story of the bad boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning.  This fits Bran of course and it also fits into the mythos that the dawn sword was forged from a fallen star.

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Luke 10:18
So He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

11Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.' 12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13"But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.…

In this context, star doesn't represent venus or the planet wanderers but a comet.

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Revelation 2:28  I will give to him the morning star, that he may be irradiated with its splendor and outshine all others, i. e. I will cause his heavenly glory to excel that of others).  wandering stars, Jude 1:13 (these are not planets, the motion of which is scarcely noticed by the commonalty, but far more probably comets, which Jude regards as stars which have left the course prescribed them by God, and wander about at will — cf. Enoch 18:15, and so are a fit symbol of men

In the Dothraki religion; the souls of the dead become stars in the night sky.  The 'star' that fell to earth can then be interpreted as the bad little boy who climbed too high in conjunction with the appearance of a comet; an icy snowball - the heart of darkness and soul of ice.

There is a duality to the morning star, son of dawn in that Christ also refers to himself as the morning star.

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…15But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.” 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm

http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-16.htm

Icy comet (a star that outshines all others) and oak tree:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Dunk.png

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/news/photos/000/214/21494.ngsversion.1421959291729.adapt.1900.1.jpg
 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

curtain of light:

http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos/3001025.jpg

"the end of the world":

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An unpleasant or disastrous destiny.  Synonyms: day of reckoning, doom, doomsday Type of: destiny, fate. an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future.

I think there are two apocalyptic visions; one that ends in ice and one that ends in fire.

Edited by LynnS

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9767950/Comet-15-times-brighter-than-the-moon-to-be-visible-from-Britain.html

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6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Here's a riddle, when does a comet become a moon?

LOL

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL

No completely serious.   A moon is defined to be a celestial body that makes an orbit around a planet.  So if the red comet has started an orbit around the planet, than it has by definition become a second moon.  In this case, a “red moon”.  In space objects don’t travel in a straight line, everything is orbiting being affected by the gravitational forces of other objects.  So let us assume that something or someone “called down” this comet to strike somewhere on the planet, what would be the practical effect?  The comet would start to orbit on successively closer orbits to the planet until ultimately it gets dragged into the surface.  So before the comet strikes it becomes a second moon.

 

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28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No completely serious.   A moon is defined to be a celestial body that makes an orbit around a planet.  So if the red comet has started an orbit around the planet, than it has by definition become a second moon.  In this case, a “red moon”.  In space objects don’t travel in a straight line, everything is orbiting being affected by the gravitational forces of other objects.  So let us assume that something or someone “called down” this comet to strike somewhere on the planet, what would be the practical effect?  The comet would start to orbit on successively closer orbits to the planet until ultimately it gets dragged into the surface.  So before the comet strikes it becomes a second moon.

I don't think it's necessary to achieve an orbit because comets orbit the sun; hence the moon flew too close to the sun and cracked.  Comet Ison was completely destroyed.  The red comet has more characteristics of a fireball than a comet.  Something you would expect from a meteor grazing the atmosphere but for the purposes of this story,  it's a comet.   

For an ancient legend; the appearance of a comet as bright as the moon for a period of time could make it's way into the legends as a second moon.   A comet that has calved bits and pieces of itself might make it's way to the planet in a work of fantasy with the added bonus that it brings alien life or magic with it.  I think it likely that the icy comet was called Lightbringer while the red comet represents the red sword.

The dirty snowball effect.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Here and there a torch burned hungrily, casting its ruddy glow over the faces of the wedding guests. The way the mists threw back the shifting light made their features seem bestial, half-human, twisted. Lord Stout became a mastiff, old Lord Locke a vulture, Whoresbane Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder Frey a fox, Little Walder a red bull, lacking only a ring for his nose. Roose Bolton's own face was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be.

On another note regarding B+L=J; we have Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna represented as a trinity:

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Rickard standing behind is the tallest statue in the crypts and two smaller beside him are Lyanna and Brandon in a kind of three fingered benediction where the middle finger represents god the father.  Brandon is the son and Lyanna the madonna dressed in white with a rose laurel.  So I'm starting to lean your way on the matter.

It's the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna in the marriage bed between Ned and Catelyn:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

 

   

Edited by LynnS

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Weird thought: Patchface is already an undead, he will be involved in Jon's resurrection and we might see an army of undead NW.

When Jon discusses leading the ranging to Hardhome, Patchface tells him:

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Patchface jumped up. "I will lead it!" His bells rang merrily. "We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

When Asha has a near death experience she thinks:

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That's wrong, she thought. There are no trumpets in the Drowned God's watery halls. Below the waves the merlings hail their lord by blowing into seashells.

Melisandre has these visions about Patchface:

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That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.

And this vision about Jon:

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Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him

Patchface "will lead it" because he is already undead, Jon and others will follow him in and out of death.

Edited by Tucu

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