The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[Moiraine Sedai]

 

This team has one of the best analysis of aSoIaF topics on YT.  As much as I want to believe in Mance being the sperm donor to Lyanna, their arguments for N+A as the parents is very convincing.   

[Ygrain]

Well, forgive me if I am unimpressed. My standard for judging the quality of analysis is Radio Westeros - well researched, always backed by quotes, covering all details and just those that fit only a particular interpretation. And above all, never rude or condescending. I find the Greenhand sadly lacking in all respects here, or perhaps I should say, lackng in the first three and excess in the fourth.

[falcotron]

I don't know this team, or any of their other analyses, but this one doesn't impress me.

First, they clearly aren't checking their facts. For example, they make a big deal out of there being exactly two people named Ned in the entire world, repeating that fact multiple times. And yet, I can think of at least one other Ned off the top of my head, Noseless Ned, one of Stannis's Northern scouts. Sure, he's not exactly a major character (although neither is Edric Dayne), but a quick search through the PDFs of the novels, or the wiki, would have turned him up. If you're just making a quick off-the-cuff reply on the forums and you don't research every line, that's fine, but they're attempting to lay out the definitive evidence for their theory, and they're asking me to spend 22 minutes listening to it, and they haven't even bothered to do a 2-second search for something they repeat as a big deal multiple times?

Anyway, I didn't listen to the whole thing, but as far as I got, it's mostly one form or another of "This can't be an R+L=J Hidden Prince story, because if that were true, it would mean the Prince is Hidden!" Yes, if R+L=J is true, then Ned lied. Yes, if R+L=J is true, then GRRM is keeping his secret a secret rather than accidentally revealing it over and over. Why are any of these things evidence against R+L=J, much less for N+A=J?

I'd be willing to bet that if I sat through the whole thing, these are the kind of people who start arguing based on other crackpot theories—Ashara is still alive and is secretly some other character, Arthur is still alive and secretly Mance, Dawn is secretly hidden with Howland and is actually Lightbringer, etc.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

This team has one of the best analysis of aSoIaF topics on YT.  As much as I want to believe in Mance being the sperm donor to Lyanna, their arguments for N+A as the parents is very convincing.   

Except that they place the start of the war in 383ac against everything that we're told, all based off a bad interpretation of Little Fingers age. All to give Ashara and Eddard enough time to get married and have Jon. Ignoring also that this makes the purpose of hiding Jon, unfathomable to me. Why? For Caitlyn to pretend Robb is older, so Eddard can make the lie later that he did this all after wedding Cat, painting him self as a cheater even though by this theory, Eddard isn't. 

Much is made to do about Eddard and Ashara even though the text imply's that nothing happened between them. As Eddard claims Jon's mom is Wylla. To which  Edric also tells the same tale, adding that prior to this, Ashara and Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal. Eddard then broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla, by this tale. Even though common thought is that Jon came from the Tower of Joy, as be it love or rape, Rhaegar was having sex with Lyanna. Which would make sense as Eddard isn't the type and is shy. Also, Jon was fathered before Eddard wed Cat, backing up that Ned never cheated. 

There is a couple clues that state that Ashara actually killed her self over the loss of Rhaegar who had dishonored her at Harrenhal.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I find the Greenhand sadly lacking in all respects here,

I thought the same of their "clarification" videos as well until I saw their video "clarifying" that Val is also Ned and Ashara's child and is in fact Jon Snow's twin sister. When they brought up the fact that Ashara and Val are both described as beautiful full breasted women so they must be mother and daughter they got me. Hard to argue against that. Boy did I feel silly not putting that one together on my own.

[Faera]

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

I thought the same of their "clarification" videos as well until I saw their video "clarifying" that Val is also Ned and Ashara's child and is in fact Jon Snow's twin sister. When they brought up the fact that Ashara and Val are both described as beautiful full breasted women so they must be mother and daughter they got me. Hard to argue against that. Boy did I feel silly not putting that one together on my own.

I personally just didn't get this idea that Mance Ryder is Arthur Dayne or that he would take his "not-sister niece" beyond the Wall and pass her off as the sister of his wildling wife, Dalla. Then again, I never got behind any of these "Mance is X" theories simply because he's got too much of an established background and character to be someone in disguise. This isn't like Barristan-Arstan but a well-known brother of the Night's Watch who turned coat.

Sure, if it's revealed that Val is Jon's twin sister it would be one hell of a twist though it would feel like it's coming out of left-field. That whole scene between her, Jon and Ghost feels more like a romantic tease than anything else. You wanna get on a guy's good side, make friends with his pet wolf. Besides, she has already proven herself to be efficient, reliant and loyal to Jon, so it feels like she'll play some role in the inevitable bloodbath at Castle Black.

While I love TOotGH's videos as they have definitely inspired me to go back and double check a few things, like their 'Old Powers Awakening' series and the 'Tywin = Machiavelli' series, I just cannot get my head around N+A=J. It really feels like they made a mountain out of a mole-hill and, really relies on a mucking around of the timeline. Nevermind that it relies on Ned acting very out of character. Very "Oh, you see, the secret behind Jon is that Ned was a horrible person!"

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

and just those that fit only a particular interpretation

I would actually call this the disappointing feature of Radio Westeros for me... they're usually less terrible than other sources about it, but still disappointing when it happens.

 

I think this video has landed Greenhand on my ignore list personally though. Gotta stop wasting my time watching their videos based on random people recommending them.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And above all, never rude or condescending. I find the Greenhand sadly lacking in all respects here, or perhaps I should say, lackng in the first three and excess in the fourth.

Oh, I so agree with you that they are condescending. For me it is to the point of unwatchable. The Catelyn series of theirs is riddled with this juvenile behavior, as is the Bloodraven video. 

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

I thought the same of their "clarification" videos as well until I saw their video "clarifying" that Val is also Ned and Ashara's child and is in fact Jon Snow's twin sister. When they brought up the fact that Ashara and Val are both described as beautiful full breasted women so they must be mother and daughter they got me. Hard to argue against that. Boy did I feel silly not putting that one together on my own.

That Val video was laughably wrong on so many levels. Like text level wrong, on top of their own interpretations. There was a short list of inaccuracies I had once noted, I can't remember them all but it included what you mentioned, but the Ned's eye color was also way off. Not to mention the other book text that does correct or answer the arguements they use. Just no. 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

I'd be willing to bet that if I sat through the whole thing, these are the kind of people who start arguing based on other crackpot theories—Ashara is still alive and is secretly some other character, Arthur is still alive and secretly Mance, Dawn is secretly hidden with Howland and is actually Lightbringer, etc.

LOL!  Song for you.  You don't have to spend nine minutes listening to it.

 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

I thought the same of their "clarification" videos as well until I saw their video "clarifying" that Val is also Ned and Ashara's child and is in fact Jon Snow's twin sister. When they brought up the fact that Ashara and Val are both described as beautiful full breasted women so they must be mother and daughter they got me. Hard to argue against that. Boy did I feel silly not putting that one together on my own.

/facepalm/

Kinda reminds of that huge hype about Nefertiiti being discovered , based on a wig and double piercing and somtehing like that, only to turn out to be a young male.

1 hour ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

I would actually call this the disappointing feature of Radio Westeros for me... they're usually less terrible than other sources about it, but still disappointing when it happens.

To my best memory, I can't recall them leaving out anything substantial - some details, a couple of times, either by overlooking or to avoid the episode losing focus.

[cgrav]

The biggest nail in the NAJ coffin is that it would be terrible writing. Ashara Dayne just doesn't matter beyond muddying the waters of Jon's parentage. The Daynes carry no thematic weight, so it doesn't make any sense to insert the family directly into one of the books' longest standing and likely most significant plot points.

Lyanna's name comes up 44 times. Rhaegar's 174 times. Ashara only 10. 

And if Ashara doesn't matter... why does Jon matter? This mystery has no purpose if its resolution doesn't advance the story or the character. This mystery doesn't need to be maintained for 5000+ pages simply to establish Jon as an underdog. That was accomplished easily enough in his first chapter.

NAJ acolytes seem obsessed with this idea that the timeline might allow Ned and Ashara to bone at Harrenhal. All they have is a logistical possibility. Not thematic consistency, not symbolic consistency, not plot advancement, not character development... not anything that has anything to do with the books' fundamental qualities as literature.
 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

 

4 hours ago, Faera said:

I personally just didn't get this idea that Mance Ryder is Arthur Dayne or that he would take his "not-sister niece" beyond the Wall and pass her off as the sister of his wildling wife

But Arthur Dayne AND Mance Rayder both can fight with a great sword, how can you possibly explain that if they are not in fact the same person? 

[Faera]

58 minutes ago, cgrav said:

The Daynes carry no thematic weight, so it doesn't make any sense to insert the family directly into one of the books' longest standing and likely most significant plot points.

But they have a cool sword!

In all fairness, some might debate whether that is true because of the whole "house words are spoilers" thing that people keep mentioning.

Let's assume for a moment that R+L=J is correct; they might have at best been complicit in the cover-up as the Daynes were Targaryen loyalists and would have wanted to protect Rhaegar's last surviving child, especially after the word of what happened to Jon's half-siblings got out. I sincerely doubt that Jon has any relation to house Dayne outside of Dyanna Dayne at all.

If there is a "secret Dayne" out there, my money on (f)Aegon over Jon.

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

And if Ashara doesn't matter... why does Jon matter? This mystery has no purpose if its resolution doesn't advance the story or the character. This mystery doesn't need to be maintained for 5000+ pages simply to establish Jon as an underdog. That was accomplished easily enough in his first chapter.

 

This is my big problem with N+A=J. It is literally the first suggestion that is thrown out there. We hear that version of events before Ned even mentions Wylla. So, the mystery is established... only for us to be provided with the answer straight off the bat? Nope. Not buying what this theory is selling just on that basis.

A lot of the hype over the idea of Jon being Ned's son with Ashara seems to come from this idea that he might be the eldest and true-born son, and thus heir to Winterfell -- but that would involve a lot of actions that contradict Ned's established character. Either that or they just like the idea of Jon becoming the new Sword of the Morning. Or they want Dany to have been the baby in the tower.

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

NAJ acolytes seem obsessed with this idea that the timeline might allow Ned and Ashara to bone at Harrenhal. All they have is a logistical possibility. Not thematic consistency, not symbolic consistency, not plot advancement, not character development... not anything that has anything to do with the books' fundamental qualities as literature.

 

One thing I have noticed about "altermative Jon-birth" theories obsess over logistics, really. It is something that R+L theorists really don't have to worry about as much. As to why, I tend to attribute more to us having such a better handle on Ned's whereabouts during the war compared to Rhaegar, You don't have to completely pinpoint where Jon's mum and dad were in that scenario because we know where they were throughout most of the war.

36 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

But Arthur Dayne AND Mance Rayder both can fight with a great sword, how can you possibly explain that if they are not in fact the same person? 

Duh, because everyone who could be in disguise is either Rhaegar Targaryen or Howland Reed in disguise.

[The Wondering Wolf]

27 minutes ago, Faera said:

In all fairness, some might debate whether that is true because of the whole "house words are spoilers" thing that people keep mentioning.

It was a joke by Elio, and now you do not get it out of the community. 

I had some strange encounter with these Order of the Green Hand guys when they promoted their Old Nan is Rohanne Webber theory. I told them that the Brandon Stark Old Nan nursed was born in 227 AC the latest, but Rohanne disappeared in 230 AC. Their response was that GRRM was known to make mistakes and they did not trust his dates. And even before that I was kind of speechless when they did some calculation on the date of Brandon and LF's duel which took around ten minutes, and then they came to the conclusion that it took place in 283 AC. Now it takes 30 seconds to find out the fact that Brandon already died in 282 AC, but yeah... After these experiences I chose to ignore them.

[Faera]

3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It was a joke by Elio, and now you do not get it out of the community. 

 

That explains a lot! 

[The Wondering Wolf]

Actually GRRM was just not confident with the Dayne words and that is why he told Elio and Linda to hold them back.

[Faera]

58 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Actually GRRM was just not confident with the Dayne words and that is why he told Elio and Linda to hold them back.

Yes, that's what I had once read somewhere. Before the joke got circulated around.

[Curled Finger]

Wait a minute.   I've listened to all the OOTGH videos.   (And everything else on you tube because it beats the hell out of the news.)   I thought they were like WWF is sports entertainment?   

Since we're on the subject, when will someone finally realize that Barristan Selmy is Jon's real father?  

[falcotron]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Since we're on the subject, when will someone finally realize that Barristan Selmy is Jon's real father?  

Nonsense, the character we call "Barristan Selmy" is actually Willem Darry in disguise. Sure, Old Griff is the real Barristan Selmy, but that means he's not Jon Connington, and it's JonConn who's Jon's real father. (Think about it: How could two people have identical first names if they're not related?) And anyway, both JonConn and Maggy the Frog were being warged by Bloodraven when they conceived Jon, so they're not really his parents.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Oh, wow. I honestly thought I was one of the few whom thought they were condescending, juvenile and disrespectful to other peoples opinions and research, at least with this theory. And they swear that whomever disagrees with them on this theory is only a show watcher and never read the books...They're even worse in the comments, like they claim theres absolutely nothing in the books which supports Jon being the offspring to Lyanna & Rhaegar, and that those who believe in R+L=J, only have 4 or 5 quotes from the book and "promise me, ned", to support their view of things.  Yet, refusing to look into and rethink their dates and timing of things, no matter how wrong or inaccurate they might be, solely because it fits their own belief. One of my least favorite ASOIAF channels on YT.