The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

12 hours ago, King Maegor said:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/george-r-r-martins-a-world-of-ice-and-fire-mobile-app/

He sells it on his website.  It refers to it as the definitive guide to the series.  Need I say more? 

The app authors refer to it as that in their description, on both that site and the app store. GRRM is not the author of the app, it's random house LLC, which I'm not even sure what connection they have with George, because thats also not the publisher of the books. Their fame comes from being the publishers of Dan Jones series of books about Medieval Europe, it's rulers, dynasties and politics. He also sells GoT related calendars and that cookbook on his site, he isn't the author behind the cookbook, he merely provides an introduction. I don't think he makes or has much to do with the many GoT inspired calendars he sells on his site either, yet they're there. But continue grasping for straws..

 

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Firstly, you acknowledged that you did pull a quote out of thin air about Ned being seen with a pretty woman at Sisterton, despite that not being in the books. Yet you still insist that Ned was seen with a woman who definitely had his child, based on one quote that doesn't confirm any of that.

Then you go and pull this out of thin air. Ned never says that; the actual quote is:

This is all in the context of visiting Robert's bastards, thinking about Lyanna on her deathbed, having a vision of Jon Snow's face, and then comparing the characters of Robert (the man Lyanna was supposed to marry) and Rhaegar, and finding that Rhaegar comes off more favourably. He might have thought about Rhaegar a dozen times a day, whenever he saw Jon - but that's not the same as remembering someone, taking the time to reflect on the person they were.

If these are the types of misconceptions that are used as solid evidence in this well-researched series, then I'll pass thanks anyway.

 

 

Right, now who said it wasn't fair to say he's pulling things out of thin air to fit his narrative? Because as this post shows, thats exactly what he's been doing.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

This is all in the context of visiting Robert's bastards, thinking about Lyanna on her deathbed, having a vision of Jon Snow's face, and then comparing the characters of Robert (the man Lyanna was supposed to marry) and Rhaegar, and finding that Rhaegar comes off more favourably. He might have thought about Rhaegar a dozen times a day, whenever he saw Jon - but that's not the same as remembering someone, taking the time to reflect on the person they were.

Oh, no need to extrapolate or anything. Before Ned "For the first time in years, found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen", he'd thought or spoke of Rhaegar several times in several different chapters, and we witnessed it first hand.

Eddard I:

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The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

 

Quote

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Eddard II:
 

Quote

 

"I won my crown there. How should I forget it?"

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him.

 

Eddard VII:

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If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

Eddard VIII:

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"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"

 

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Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion…

And only after all those times Ned thought about Rhaegar in our presence, in the Eddard IX, we find that remark of Ned "finding himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen for the first time in years".

So there.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh, no need to extrapolate or anything. Before Ned "For the first time in years, found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen", he'd thought or spoke of Rhaegar several times in several different chapters, and we witnessed it first hand.

Eddard I:

 

Eddard II:
 

Eddard VII:

Eddard VIII:

 

And only after all those times Ned thought about Rhaegar in our presence, in the Eddard IX, we find that remark of Ned "finding himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen for the first time in years".

So there.

Ned is an awesome extremely unreliable narrator, especially when it comes to himself.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 10/14/2017 at 0:10 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

This team has one of the best analysis of aSoIaF topics on YT.  As much as I want to believe in Mance being the sperm donor to Lyanna, their arguments for N+A as the parents is very convincing.   

They're my favorite program on youtube.  The Order of the Greenhand do a thorough job.  Preston Jacobs and Ideas of Ice and Fire are very good also.  I don't buy into the R+L=J theory myself and I can more easily buy into this theory.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

I disagree.

[Ygrain]

23 hours ago, cgrav said:

Ned is an awesome extremely unreliable narrator, especially when it comes to himself.

"I try never to get involved in my own life. Too much trouble."

[Buddhakin]

I'm not really seeing anything that disproves their theories on here beyond the fact that some people disagree with them. People keep making claims about why they are wrong but they're not using examples or citing text to disprove them. It seems awfully close minded like a big hateful circle jerk. All the while saying they don't ha e their facts straight without using any of their own facts to prove it.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

15 minutes ago, Buddhakin said:

I'm not really seeing anything that disproves their theories on here beyond the fact that some people disagree with them. People keep making claims about why they are wrong but they're not using examples or citing text to disprove them. It seems awfully close minded like a big hateful circle jerk. All the while saying they don't ha e their facts straight without using any of their own facts to prove it.

See, it's not that when your theory can't be disproved, you win. Look up "Russell's teapot" for the explanation, why.

[Buddhakin]

I understand that. I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I get no satisfaction out of proving people wrong or right but how do you movr forward in a conversation or get someone to open their mind up enough to consider changing it by going on like a lot of people are? Unless their content with arguing and insulting people, and I know a lot of people get on the internet to do just that but I don't like to immediately assume that is anyone's intent. I'm probably kicking a dead horse though. I probably shouldn't have bothered commenting at all.

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, Buddhakin said:

I'm not really seeing anything that disproves their theories on here beyond the fact that some people disagree with them. People keep making claims about why they are wrong but they're not using examples or citing text to disprove them. It seems awfully close minded like a big hateful circle jerk. All the while saying they don't ha e their facts straight without using any of their own facts to prove it.

That's funny, because all through this thread I've seen "facts" disproven using the actual text from the books.

This was mentioned earlier in the thread:

Quote

I thought the same of their "clarification" videos as well until I saw their video "clarifying" that Val is also Ned and Ashara's child and is in fact Jon Snow's twin sister. When they brought up the fact that Ashara and Val are both described as beautiful full breasted women so they must be mother and daughter they got me. Hard to argue against that. Boy did I feel silly not putting that one together on my own.

Which is an interesting claim, if they indeed made it - where is Ashara described as full breasted? I don't recall anyone in the books discussing her boob situation.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

27 minutes ago, Buddhakin said:

I understand that. I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I get no satisfaction out of proving people wrong or right but how do you movr forward in a conversation or get someone to open their mind up enough to consider changing it by going on like a lot of people are?

Or, hypothetically, the problem this theory has is not people's "close minds", but that its evidence is non-existent and its logic underwhelming. Maybe, just maybe, we listened with "open minds", assessed the argument and judged it for what it was.

Just a thought.

[Buddhakin]

I read everything and am inclined to disagree.

[Faera]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Which is an interesting claim, if they indeed made it - where is Ashara described as full breasted? I don't recall anyone in the books discussing her boob situation.

I believe their argument for the Val-Ashara connection essentially piggy-backs off their other theories. They remark that it is odd that Mance would pick Dalla, the less pretty sister, over Val "the beauty" and conclude that it must be Allyria, and Allyria is actually the daughter - not the sister - of Ashara. There was also a bit of a leap in logic in their video where they conclude that someone with Val's looks could only have come from "the North or Dorne", as well... which I never understood. Ultimately, the entire theory is permeated by the presumption that Mance is Arthur and N+A=J (and, apparently, V). There is nothing wrong with it all being part of one big theory they have but you take one part away then the whole house of cards comes down. So, if you don't agree that Mance is Arthur and N+A then there is nothing to suggest Val has any connection to Ashara whatsoever.

In any case, there hasn't been any direct comment about Ashara's figure in the books. She hasn't even been mentioned much at all in the books and nearly all of them are relating to her possible romance with Ned and mothering of Jon, more than her physical description.

Catelyn is actually the character who thinks about her the most because of the rumour that Ashara is Jon's mother. She describes her first as "tall and fair" with "haunting violet eyes" but nothing more.

Cersei seems aware of the rumour that Ashara was Jon's mother too but makes no mention of her looks.

Edric Dayne mentions her to Arya - still, no real word on her looks. The focus is more on whether she had a relationship with Ned and the fact that she threw herself from a tower in grief.

Meera gives her the moniker of "a maid with the laughing purple eyes". Obviously, she never knew Ashara herself but she's probably repeating the same alias Howland ascribed to her when he originally told the story.

By far, the most thorough description of Ashara Dayne's looks has come from Barristan Selmy, who we know was infatuated with her. He describes her as "a young maiden not long at court" whose looks far overshadowed Elia Martell's, despite Elia herself being described as quite fair herself. He remembers "[her] smile, the sound of her laughter", "her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders", and her "haunting purple eyes". He also thinks about her suicide over the grief of her stillborn daughter and possibly having been jilted.

That, as far as I can remember.

So, what does that tell us about Ashara's looks? Based on the separate accounts of Catelyn, Howland and Barristan, the most consistently mentioned physical attribute of hers - and, thus, her most striking feature - was her violet or purple eyes. Cat and Barristan remember them as "haunting" while Howland seems to remember her mirth in association with them. We know her hair was "dark" from Barristan, and that she was "tall" from Catelyn. We can assume she was overall quite beautiful: Cat says she was fair, obviously, Barristan thought she was beautiful, and Howland seems to have noted her as popular for the dancing, and his POV would probably be less skewed than Barristan (who obviously is remembering her through rose-tinted glasses).

Bottom line: we have had virtually no indication as to what Ashara's figure was.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Which is an interesting claim, if they indeed made it - where is Ashara described as full breasted? I don't recall anyone in the books discussing her boob situation.

To be fair, in another thread, someone found that all of the officially commissioned art of Ashara has her as large-breasted, which presumably at least means that multiple people took GRRM's words as connoting a busty woman and he didn't feel the need to correct them.

That being said, the one drawing that user linked to was a very voluptuous woman, and yet Val is slender other than her boob situation (e.g., "She was as fair as he’d remembered, slender, full-breasted…", ASoS Jon X). So, if that art is their evidence, it's actually evidence against any Ashara-Val connection, not for it. (And that's not even getting into the fact that neither Ashara nor Ned has honey-blonde hair, pale blue eyes, sharp features, or any of the other things used to describe Val in the text, and of course neither does her supposed twin Jon Snow.)

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 10/20/2017 at 0:53 AM, falcotron said:

To be fair, in another thread, someone found that all of the officially commissioned art of Ashara has her as large-breasted, which presumably at least means that multiple people took GRRM's words as connoting a busty woman and he didn't feel the need to correct them.

Nah. If Lady Ashara's knockers had been supposed to be Relevant, to be a Clue, they would have gotten a mention (at least one) in the text proper. But they haven't, hence they aren't.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nah. If Lady Ashara's knockers had been supposed to be Relevant, to be a Clue, they would have gotten a mention (at least one) in the text proper. But they haven't, hence they aren't.

Try telling that to Barristan on those cold lonely nights in the White Sword Tower. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

43 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Try telling that to Barristan on those cold lonely nights in the White Sword Tower. 

Oh, but even Ser Barry, reminiscing about old times in general and Ashara Dayne specifically, doesn't reminisce about her hooters. Nor did he write about 'em in the Book of the Brothers, for Ser Jaime to read. Didn't throw in any "boy, those tits of Ashara's were really remarkable" somewhere between "Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt" and "Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood...".

[maudisdottir]

So now that's two claims shot down - Ned was never seen in Sisterton with a pretty woman, and nobody ever discussed Ashara's tatas.