The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

Don't know what you're asking, personally I can't think of any reasoning for it or it's significance to the overall story, other than maybe throwing readers off the trail. I just don't buy the theory, nor the timeline they put forward to support it, as they rearrange and literally come up with their own dates, to fit around, so it could line up with Ned & Ashara banging at the tourney of Harrenhal.

I might be wrong but it seems as if cgrav maybe didn't read your whole post, skimmed it & thought you were speaking in favor of N+A=J. I was confused when I read his/her response. 

[King Maegor]

3 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

 

The timing of Brandon & Littlefingers duel. They're date of 284 AC as the Sack Of KL when we know from GRRM himself that that isn't true.  And making your own calculations without any book support, other than what they have personally interpreted, isn't research, it's pulling things out of anywhere to fit with your viewpoint. Order Of The Greenhand has done this time and time again on various videos. And when you dispute them, they disregard book quotes, and what those quotes could perhaps interpret, and simply attempt to down them as "4 or 5 quotes, and misinterpretations" merely because it doesn't fit with their own theories. Like,it really boggles my mind, how they can call opposing views as nonsense and misinterpretations, yet doesn't acknowledge their own.

will you kindly send me the george quote that disproves 284

[cgrav]

Just now, King Maegor said:

"When the dead come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"-Jeor Mormont, AGOT-Jon IX

the answer is no, it doesn't matter.  Jon being eligible to be the Sword of the Morning, wielding Dawn and leading mankind to victory in the New Battle for the Dawn fits with his character better than possibly having a claim to a throne that doesn't matter anymore

You don't think being the child of Ice and Fire has anything to do with the Song of Ice and Fire? RLJ isn't about Jon being King, it's about him being AA or TPWWP or LH or whatever other "next hero". There is major thematic significance to Rhaegar and Lyanna's union, but in those terms, Ashara Dayne just doesn't matter. What major themes are attached to her? How does her character develop those themes? Unanswerable questions, as yet, because we don't know her as a character.

If we just really need Dawn in Jon's hands, there are a million ways for it to get there outside the proper rules of titles and inheritance (which, if we've been paying any attention, we should know are all but meaningless). I don't recall Brienne or Joffrey bearing the name Stark, but they each have a piece of Ice. Jon isn't a Mormont but now he's got their ancestral sword.

If there's one strong theme we can associate with Jon, it's that gets nothing by right of name. He earned the Mormont sword. He was made Lord Commander by an actual vote. He even refused the Stark name that would have entitled him to the North. It seems terribly inconsistent that his name would start mattering, whether it's Dayne, Stark, or Targaryen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, cgrav said:

You don't think being the child of Ice and Fire has anything to do with the Song of Ice and Fire? RLJ isn't about Jon being King, it's about him being AA or TPWWP or LH or whatever other "next hero". There is major thematic significance to Rhaegar and Lyanna's union, but in those terms, Ashara Dayne just doesn't matter. What major themes are attached to her? How does her character develop those themes? Unanswerable questions, as yet, because we don't know her as a character.

If we just really need Dawn in Jon's hands, there are a million ways for it to get there outside the proper rules of titles and inheritance (which, if we've been paying any attention, we should know are all but meaningless). I don't recall Brienne or Joffrey bearing the name Stark, but they each have a piece of Ice. Jon isn't a Mormont but now he's got their ancestral sword.

If there's one strong theme we can associate with Jon, it's that gets nothing by right of name. He earned the Mormont sword. He was made Lord Commander by an actual vote. He even refused the Stark name that would have entitled him to the North. It seems terribly inconsistent that his name would start mattering, whether it's Dayne, Stark, or Targaryen.

Exactly! Not to mention even IF Jon's parents were Ned & Ashara that does NOT mean he automatically gets Dawn. 

[cgrav]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I might be wrong but it seems as if cgrav maybe didn't read your whole post, skimmed it & thought you were speaking in favor of N+A=J. I was confused when I read his/her response. 

oh yeah that's my bad, I misread. I stand by my points, though misdirected.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, cgrav said:

oh yeah that's my bad, I misread. I stand by points, though misdirected.

No worries. I've done it too.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

19 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Mance isn't kind of good.  He's the best fighter in the series,

Is this also a known clarification?  How did Mance become the crowned champion in Westeros? Who did he beat as Mance Rayder that makes his record so impressive?

 

28 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Jon being eligible to be the Sword of the Morning, wielding Dawn and leading mankind to victory

Why do they need Jon Snow when they already have Mance Rayder/Arthur Dayne the best swordsman on the planet? Why can't Arthur just wield Dawn like he has for years?

[King Maegor]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Exactly! Not to mention even IF Jon's parents were Ned & Ashara that does NOT mean he automatically gets Dawn.

It makes Jon eligible to get it, and he's the perfect candidate for it

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, King Maegor said:

I literally laughed out loud when I read that.  It makes me think you've never even watched their videos. I found their channel almost a year ago, and they are easily the best-researched ASOIAF channel on YouTube.  I don't necessarily agree with all their conclusions, but they use more text to back their theories than any other channel I'm aware of.  I have also talked to them in their comment section and found them both to be very nice.  I have seen instances where they weren't nice to someone but those people were acting like animals and they responded with the same level of respect those individuals were giving them.  Something tells me you must have been one of those rude people that they smacked around and/or humiliated, and are using forums they aren't on to try to make them look bad 

If they are among "best-researched" on youtube, then the rest of the videos must be really poor quality. I suffered through two of their videos, and the attitude they showed (everyone is stupid if the believe XY) certainly didn't compel me to want to talk to them, so, no, you're wrong in this respect, too. Finally, I don't need to try and make them look bad, they manage that solely on their own.

[King Maegor]

10 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Is this also a known clarification?  How did Mance become the crowned champion in Westeros? Who did he beat as Mance Rayder that makes his record so impressive?

Watch their Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne video.  the guy reads the whole fight scene with Mance and Jon in the training yard at Castle Black.  I was still kind of on the fence until he read that.  Jon was completely in awe of him

[King Maegor]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

If they are among "best-researched" on youtube, then the rest of the videos must be really poor quality. I suffered through two of their videos, and the attitude they showed (everyone is stupid if the believe XY) certainly didn't compel me to want to talk to them, so, no, you're wrong in this respect, too. Finally, I don't need to try and make them look bad, they manage that solely on their own.

I've talked to them at least 50 times on their YouTube channel and on Facebook.  I've actually never seen a channel that answers as many people as they do.  I can't even imagine how much time they must spend researching and answering people.  the fact that you claim they aren't the best researched and admit you are basically almost completely unfamiliar with their videos says everything that needs to be said about the value of your opinion on the topic.

[King Maegor]

41 minutes ago, cgrav said:

You don't think being the child of Ice and Fire has anything to do with the Song of Ice and Fire? RLJ isn't about Jon being King, it's about him being AA or TPWWP or LH or whatever other "next hero". There is major thematic significance to Rhaegar and Lyanna's union, but in those terms, Ashara Dayne just doesn't matter. What major themes are attached to her? How does her character develop those themes? Unanswerable questions, as yet, because we don't know her as a character.

If we just really need Dawn in Jon's hands, there are a million ways for it to get there outside the proper rules of titles and inheritance (which, if we've been paying any attention, we should know are all but meaningless). I don't recall Brienne or Joffrey bearing the name Stark, but they each have a piece of Ice. Jon isn't a Mormont but now he's got their ancestral sword.

If there's one strong theme we can associate with Jon, it's that gets nothing by right of name. He earned the Mormont sword. He was made Lord Commander by an actual vote. He even refused the Stark name that would have entitled him to the North. It seems terribly inconsistent that his name would start mattering, whether it's Dayne, Stark, or Targaryen.

Why does the Song of Ice and Fire need to be a person?  none of the other poetic titles like that are people.  they're titles for events or struggles, like the Dance of the Dragons.  George uses poetic language like that all the time and I've never seen an instance where it referred to a person.  And don't use Dany's House of Undying vision because Rhaegar was clearly referring to an actual song.  and Jon would get Dawn because he earned it too.  It has nothing to do with his name, and what better training sword for a 15-year-old to have in preparation for wielding Dawn could there be than Longclaw.  it requires two hands but isn't quite as big so he can get good with a two-handed sword and later when he's stronger and ready for it, he gets Dawn.  and there's only one way to get Dawn.  being named the Sword of the Morning by House Dayne, who only gives that title to members of their family who are worthy of it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

It makes Jon eligible to get it, and he's the perfect candidate for it

It may make him eligible but it doesn't guarantee he will have it. 

 

2 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Why does the Song of Ice and Fire need to be a person?

It doesn't need to be a person but since the title of the series is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' if we have a person in the series that is literally the union of Ice & Fire it would be safe to say this person is crucial to the story, no? 

[King Maegor]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It doesn't need to be a person but since the title of the series is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' if we have a person in the series that is literally the union of Ice & Fire it would be safe to say this person is crucial to the story, no? 

Have you ever seen their what is the Song of Ice and Fire video?  they make a very compelling argument that it is the struggle for balance in the world between Light and Dark, fire and ice, life and death, etc that is the Song of Ice and Fire.  they present it along Yin/Yang (Chinese Taoist philosophy) lines and I have to admit the last line the guy said in the video almost made it feel like there's no way they're wrong.  

[cgrav]

1 minute ago, King Maegor said:

Why does the Song of Ice and Fire need to be a person?

1) We're given this expectation by Rhaegar in Dany's HotU vision: "His the song of ice and fire"
2) Ice and Fire already came together when Rhaegar and Lyanna hooked up, so whoever their kid is, is the child of Ice and Fire
3) The theme is pervasive enough that it's completely reasonable for it to be personified, just like most other important themes

Ultimately, characters express the themes at the foundation of any work of literature. I think we expect the story's primary over-arching theme to show up strongly in specific characters, and for those characters to come together in meaningful ways. Basic thematic development isn't like an option in fiction, it's the basis of it. 

As for Jon becoming an official Sword of the Morning... why is that necessary for him to use Dawn? The next time we'll see Jon, he'll have conquered death. I think he's at a point that titles and honors simply do not matter. If he gets Dawn, it won't be on the basis of some officiality but through circumstance. He'll pick it off Darkstar's dead body for all we know. I'm also curious just which Dayne would be bestow him with that honor, seeing as the present Lord of Starfall is a 12 year old boy roaming the Riverlands with some outlaws.

I really feel like N+A comes out of a readership that isn't looking past the action on the page. There's a ridiculous amount of subtext and symbolic storytelling in Ice and Fire, and RLJ is a puzzle piece that actually fits. NAJ doesn't work on that level at all. It barely even works on the timeline, which is the absolute minimum for a theory to be credible. 

[King Maegor]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It may make him eligible but it doesn't guarantee he will have it. 

It seems like someone has to get their hands on it eventually.  George didn't create a huge one of a kind glowing white sword for no reason.  he was writing an Arthurian book when he came up with the idea for ASOIAF and Dawn and Excalibur seem to have a similar "only can wield it if you're worthy" thing going on

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Have you ever seen their what is the Song of Ice and Fire video?  they make a very compelling argument that it is the struggle for balance in the world between Light and Dark, fire and ice, life and death, etc that is the Song of Ice and Fire.  they present it along Yin/Yang (Chinese Taoist philosophy) lines and I have to admit the last line the guy said in the video almost made it feel like there's no way they're wrong.  

I haven't but would be interested in watching it. 

One thing doesn't necessarily negate the other though. They could be spot on & Jon could be the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna. I know that isn't the theory you buy into, I'm just saying if it is true it does add to the story & make him a crucial element to the plot. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

27 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

I've talked to them at least 50 times on their YouTube channel and on Facebook.  I've actually never seen a channel that answers as many people as they do.  I can't even imagine how much time they must spend researching and answering people.  the fact that you claim they aren't the best researched and admit you are basically almost completely unfamiliar with their videos says everything that needs to be said about the value of your opinion on the topic.

I'm VERY FAMILIAR with their videos, and no they aren't the best researched GOT based channel on YT. Everything said about them in this thread is valid, valid criticisms of them as researchers, at least as far as GoT goes, those who holds the answers, and how to be towards those whom share different viewpoints than their own. They can do better in all of those aspects. And you dismissing everyone here who have differing or may have differing opinions or views compared to theirs as those whom have no familiarity to the channel and their videos doesn't exactly help their cause.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

It seems like someone has to get their hands on it eventually.  George didn't create a huge one of a kind glowing white sword for no reason.  he was writing an Arthurian book when he came up with the idea for ASOIAF and Dawn and Excalibur seem to have a similar "only can wield it if you're worthy" thing going on

I agree with this. I just disagree that 1. It's evidence of a union between Rhaegar & Ashara 2. That it has to be Jon to wield it - there are many people worthy of it IMO. It's just as likely that Ashara got pregnant by Brandon or whoever & that baby is still alive & will wield it. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

29 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Watch their Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne video.  the guy reads the whole fight scene with Mance and Jon in the training yard at Castle Black.  I was still kind of on the fence until he read that.  Jon was completely in awe of him

So, if you can impress a 16 year old Jon Snow who has never seen or fought against the great southern knights of Westeros your the "best in the series? I mean you yourself just said no one at the Night's Watch is very good so Mance being better then them would not seem very impressive. Also is that a direct quote from Jon Snow? I don't remember Jon saying he was in awe of Mance Rayder's swordsmanship.

 

33 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

It makes Jon eligible to get it, and he's the perfect candidate for it

Again I'm going to ask the same question I asked you before. If Mance Rayder is the Sword of the Morning true born Arthur Dayne why do they need Jon to wield Dawn when they have Arthur. The man you just said was Mance Rayder who is "the best in the series?"  Wouldn't Arthur be the one best quolified to wield Dawn? Please I need a clarification on this.