U.S. Politics: We're Saying Merry Christmas, Again

[Bonnot OG]

35 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

It'll be motorcycles and tiki torches all the way down.

Ridden and carried by people wearing khakis 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

On 10/15/2017 at 3:37 PM, DanteGabriel said:

@Michael Seswatha Jordan, you were so thirsty for honest engagement on why the white working class feels forgotten... I'm your huckleberry.

I wouldn't want you to lose the opportunity because the previous thread closed.

 

I know all about the tragedies that occurring in this presidency. I honestly try and tune it out for the most part and pray for impeachment, but would that even help? Look, I am not a Trump supporter, no matter how much you would like me to be. I am not a racist, or bigot or any of the above. I come from a bi-racial family. I know what the confederate flag means 9 times out of 10 where I'm from. So, paint a picture of me however you like, you're most definitely wrong.

We was discussing white-privledge and all you did was rant on about how I illustrate what's wrong with politics and the normal Trump supporter. Who's shifting goal posts?

White privledge is a dying definition. You have very educated black men and women who say the same. There are just as many poor white people as black, that face every hardship and challenges. Its not 40 years ago, no matter how you slice it. Do I think it exists to an extent? Sure. But, it is not what it once was. And, I'm sorry folks, living in the past is useless. I think that you can find as many areas in America that are a white majority, that face the same economic strains as black areas. Its your never going to hear about Logan County, WV (and there are 1000's of Logan Counties spread across the US.)on the evening news, you will hear about any inner city and problems they face their. What I find so funny is the hypocrisy I see and hear so much, a lot of the time in these very threads. White trash! Uneducated white trailer trash! Would you say the same about black people in inner city Chicago? Or, would you sing a different tune and say that they are fighting a system that keeps them low? Same as any Logan County, WV in America. No jobs. No options. Live in a cycle of poverty. Its so fucking hypocritical, and ignorant that it blows my mind when someone says it. 

Now, when I hear white privledge the only thing that comes to mind to me, is in a nutshell, racial profiling. Which definitely exists and is a struggle only a black man would know.  I've seen with my own eyes. I've also been racial profiled and pulled over for no reason at all, was going to be detained, all because I was in a very poor area Baltimore. I was white trash, with a black man buying drugs. When actually I was with a college friend going to meet his family. And, when I met his family I seen the same thing that I've seen a hundred times in rural WV. Poverty. 10 kids to a house running around with no one looking out for them. Same situation, different locale. 

I read an article on ESPN the other day wrote by a Army Ranger who first discussed with Colin Kaepernick about kneeling. That article really spoke to me. He talked about when he got done a tour how hard it was coming back to a nation that is divided, by red and blue. Where there is non-stop bickering and arguing, and never any coming together to do what's right for America. The arguments practiced over and over on sites such as these. The left blames the right and the right blames the left. And, you take offront to me saying that I am a centrist, that I don't consider myself Dem or Rep. Go on, to basically say that's short hand for a Trump supporter. Your mind is already made, your arguments prepared, your not willing to listen. You know who I am and what I represent already. Just because in don't have statistics and articles bookmarked to provide for you, I am an ignorant fool, who shouldn't dare voice his opinion, easy lunch for the Post-God's. Well, I am not as informed as you or most people in these political thread. I read it to gain a better understanding of events. I hate watching the news, because I hate the bias and the state of the world, it's depressing. But, when I have an opinion I'll voice it. And, rather than going to clipboard to give the same argument I've seen a thousand times, why not just try and look at things from a different perspective? I'm not a Trump supporter, but I know many. And, they're not the people that so many claim them to be. They are simply people that truly feel like they've been ignored for decades. Nothing done to help spur economic growth. Have to drive hour's away or simply work "down the road" to have enough money to support their family. You can give me all your proposals from your favorite politician, but what has been done? Nothing. That's the fact. I don't care if it's Trump, Hillary, W, Bill, Bernie or Obama who has a great idea. Nothing is done. And, people get frustrated. People thought maybe a guy that thumbed his nose at both sides of the fence, might actually get something done. That was their thinking. Sure, then there is a portion that loved the racist rhetoric, of course. That was in display in Charlottesville. 

Last year around this time a man keeled during an NFL game. And, man, was I pissed. I didn't care why, I just was pissed to see someone disrespecting the flag that so many people died for, my brother and grandfather fought for. I got in an argument with one of my closest black friends. We didn't speak for awhile. Then I seen Charlottesville and I understood why he was kneeling and I called my friend and apologized, and said that I'll do my best to see things in another's perspective. I was sorry. That more than anything is what we all need to do. Is try and look at things from another's perspective. Put your arguments on a shelf and try and find a way that we can all prosper and live life a little bit better. Find a way to get past all this hate, wether it's white/black or red/blue. 

I really like the idea that someone proposed. That the 1st step to healing all this hate in this country right now, would be for Kaep and Trump to have a sit down talk on National TV. And, let Kaep express himself face to face. See, what type of blubbering we would get from Trump then. You think he would call him a S.O.B. to his face? I don't. I think he's a coward. But, it would open a whole lot of eyes, that's for sure. No matter how the conversation went.

Sorry, I went off in a twenty different directions. I don't have preconceived arguments and a list of links to defend myself. So, I guess I shouldn't have even expressed my opinions on what I see in my day to day life. I don't feel that your attacking me, but, I do feel that you and others have a mental image of who I am and felt the need to clarify myself and maybe just get a little bit of frustration off my chest. Thanks if you took the time to read this. I hope and pray that this country finds a way to come together. For the little girl hanging on my shoulder right now, and my two boys wrestling in the yard. That's all I really care about.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

19 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Needs more Vox Day.

Said no one, outside of Vox Day.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

44 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

We could combine it with the Pence library and it would be nothing but Chick Tracts and Porno Mags.

We'll need to hire Goldmember to build the thing.

42 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

A big screen with random tweets popping up?

The biggest, most beautiful screens.

27 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

All books that stop at chapter 11

 

HAHAHAHA!

Also, don't forget the picture books. 

[HoodedCrow]

We were discussing anti feminism and white supremacy. I notice that Ormond is not a moderator, so I can continue. 

Yes, Mormon males are supposed to attain their own planet by some sort of spiritual credit. I do believe that the function of their spiritual wives, who they may choose outside Earthly marriage is to populate the planet that they are the God of with spirit babies. Maybe they wash up as well?

Brigham Young instigated the Meadows Massacre. There were a lot of descendants or "spiritual" descendants of Joseph Smith in that murderous group. They also were unfriendly towards First Nations peoples, and Feds with fire arms.

Mormons were big on the idea of the mark of Cain on "colored" people, although they changed their racist policy in the seventies, probably because recruitment numbers are a factor in the planet allotment. 

I've witnessed some very dodgy treatment of women in that group. Strange, that the women have a very high use of anti depressants. Also, practicing gay people can be shunned, and it is very upsetting for them and their supposedly eternal family. I know of one patriarch who was suicidal over a gay son. 

I don't think these issues should be silenced or pushed off, do you?

Yes there is some discussion about whether Joseph Smith (poor, ill, and the son of an alcoholic of no special heritage)was a prophet who improved on Christianity, while an angel told him the secrets of the universe in the Reformed Egyptian (sic) language. If interested one might look up the hat that revealed his information. Or one might be curious about the ancient submarine that ferried a tribe of Israel? To North America. People got upset about him spiritually marrying teenagers and married women.

It's relevant because of the religious issues involved in American politics and the money that is now allowed to flow with dodgy checks and balances into politics, so people should know about the anti gay, propagandist and ant feminist agendas of people influencing policy.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

 

Mormons were big on the idea of the mark of Cain on "colored" people, although they changed their racist policy in the seventies, probably because recruitment numbers are a factor in the planet allotment. 

 

Actually it was over BYU's football program:

Quote

Decades ago there was a similar campaign against the very same BYU this Missouri football team will play against on Saturday. Back then San Jose State football players began a boycott against BYU because the Mormon Church banned black people from the priesthood. Other schools like Stanford followed suit: They simply refused to play the school because of racist Mormon Church policy. After a decade of these boycotts by some teams, and mounting pressure across the country, the Mormon Church changed its policy and allowed the ordaining of black priests.

https://www.outsports.com/2015/11/11/9702598/missouri-football-byu-racism-gay-homophobia

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

We were discussing anti feminism and white supremacy. I notice that Ormond is not a moderator, so I can continue. 

Yes, Mormon males are supposed to attain their own planet by some sort of spiritual credit. I do believe that the function of their spiritual wives, who they may choose outside Earthly marriage is to populate the planet that they are the God of with spirit babies. Maybe they wash up as well?

Brigham Young instigated the Meadows Massacre. There were a lot of descendants or "spiritual" descendants of Joseph Smith in that murderous group. They also were unfriendly towards First Nations peoples, and Feds with fire arms.

Mormons were big on the idea of the mark of Cain on "colored" people, although they changed their racist policy in the seventies, probably because recruitment numbers are a factor in the planet allotment. 

I've witnessed some very dodgy treatment of women in that group. Strange, that the women have a very high use of anti depressants. Also, practicing gay people can be shunned, and it is very upsetting for them and their supposedly eternal family. I know of one patriarch who was suicidal over a gay son. 

I don't think these issues should be silenced or pushed off, do you?

Yes there is some discussion about whether Joseph Smith (poor, ill, and the son of an alcoholic of no special heritage)was a prophet who improved on Christianity, while an angel told him the secrets of the universe in the Reformed Egyptian (sic) language. If interested one might look up the hat that revealed his information. Or one might be curious about the ancient submarine that ferried a tribe of Israel? To North America. People got upset about him spiritually marrying teenagers and married women.

It's relevant because of the religious issues involved in American politics and the money that is now allowed to flow with dodgy checks and balances into politics, so people should know about the anti gay, propagandist and ant feminist agendas of people influencing policy.

 

You forgot the Magic Underwear.

[Bonnot OG]

Anyone hear what's going on with George Ciccariello - Maher, a professor from Drexel university? 

He received a number of death threats for a few of his tweets after the Vegas shooting and Drexel placed him administrative leave on October 11, citing safety concerns (which is bullshit). Anyway, Glenn Greenwald's shit rag the Intercept, had a writer of their's write a really disingenuous piece that attacked Ciccariello-Maher, saying how he is anti free speech, when he is anti free speech absolutism by being against giving Nazis and white supremacists platforms, especially in the form of just giving speeches at universities to preach to students as a form of indoctrination and recruitment and making a profit from it.

Anyway, Greenwald and GCM have been going back and forth on twitter. I decided to start getting into it because Greenwald is a sniveling entitled dickhead who has always struck me as a person with very little stances and is an opportunist only worried about making a profit.

Anyway, Greenwald like I said is a free speech absolutist, and he considers private citizens de-platforming nazis and white supremacists to be censorship. He wound up blocking me on his twitter account (which shows he's very much a hypocrite) when I said his views very much enable nazis and other bigots. 

 

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I'm not a Trump supporter, but I know many. And, they're not the people that so many claim them to be. They are simply people that truly feel like they've been ignored for decades. Nothing done to help spur economic growth. Have to drive hour's away or simply work "down the road" to have enough money to support their family. You can give me all your proposals from your favorite politician, but what has been done? Nothing. That's the fact. I don't care if it's Trump, Hillary, W, Bill, Bernie or Obama who has a great idea. Nothing is done. And, people get frustrated. People thought maybe a guy that thumbed his nose at both sides of the fence, might actually get something done. That was their thinking. Sure, then there is a portion that loved the racist rhetoric, of course.

What progressives keep wondering (and this is not exclusive to the US, far from it) is why are all the "frustrated" people making the worst political choice, again and again.
If we dismiss the race factor, we're still left with the problem that a significant portion of people keep voting against their self-interest. And then resent the fact that "people in Washington" "ignore" them.
I understand that Trump said the right things for some people. I guess raving against economic liberalism and globalization had its appeal. I also understand that Clinton was seen as the candidate of the "establishment." But in the same election, you actually had another candidate who was also critical of the statu quo and proposed change, but who at the same time was also proposing sound policies, and that was Sanders. Someone who has proven through a lifelong political career that he has both integrity and consistency (a rarity in politics I would say).
So why did all the "frustrated" people vote for Trump and not Sanders? What was so appealing about Trump?
Take away the race factor, and you still have a very basic choice between the left and the right. And the right, by definition, does not care about the average citizen. It never has. And yet people get tricked, again and again.
Progressives think it's about race because they don't understand why else would people choose the candidate who very obviously will not give a damn about them.

With hindsight there were other reasons - I guess. I've read some interesting analyses saying that if you take HIllary out of the picture, media coverage favored Trump above any other candidate (because negative coverage is still coverage). Sanders faced incredible media hostility and struggled to get his message out.
But it's hard for progressives to see Trump supporters as victims who were deceived. They are that, for sure. But many of them were also way too willing to be deceived (many still are). They voted out of anger and didn't take the time to actually consider what policies Trump was advocating ; and he wasn't advocating much really, except some nice-sounding platitudes. And they voted for the Republican billionaire candidate, despite the fact that it was obvious that his economic policies would never ever help the average American. It's not all about growth, everyone should have realized that by now.
So yeah, perhaps progressives are unfair when they label Trump supporters as racist. But perhaps the alternative is even worse. Because if racial resentment wasn't the driving factor for many Trump supporters, it means that they got tricked far too easily.

I'm all for criticizing the media, the establishment, neo-liberalism and all that. But at some point, people also need to be adults and think, like actually think, about who and what they are voting for, who their candidate is, what they represent, what their likely policies will be, and what consequences they will have.
Take away the race factor, and you're still left with a weird brand of conservative nationalism. But conservative nationalism doesn't help poor people. It doesn't "get things done." It never has and never will. At best it can make patriotic people feel good about themselves. But it has nothing concrete to offer to average people.
And the funny thing is... if you take away the race factor, Obama was actually very good about explaining the problems. And even though the results may not have been as good as hoped, there's no denying that some of his policies were aimed at the problem.
I've worked on this video lately, because it's quite good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY05U7GaU5I

And yet, many people who voted for Trump hate Obama. They don't see the ACA as a step in the right direction but generally agree with its repeal.
So assuming the Trump supporters you describe were not driven by racial resentment, the least that can be said is that they were -or are- quite gullible.

Oh and btw the fact that so many white people struggle to make end meets does not mean that white privilege is a thing of the past. It just means that most Americans got poorer (if you look at the share of the total income at least). It means the American middle-class is disappearing. It means, in short, that everyone is closer to being as disadvantaged as minorities used to be. And yet, as hard as it may be to believe, members of minorities will still, statistically, have it harder.
White privilege hasn't vanished. It's simply a smaller advantage than it used to be.

 

 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, denstorebog said:

It'll be motorcycles and tiki torches all the way down.

Couldn't helped be reminded of the expression "It's turtles all the way down."  Which, when you think about it, is very appropriate for Trump's appeal as well as a certain legislative "ally."

[Ormond]

51 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Brigham Young instigated the Meadows Massacre. There were a lot of descendants or "spiritual" descendants of Joseph Smith in that murderous group. They also were unfriendly towards First Nations peoples, and Feds with fire arms.

 

If you want to use "spiritual descendants" figuratively, fine. But there were no physical descendants of Joseph Smith at the Mountain Meadows massacre because all of his physical descendants were back East, never having moved to Utah. 

[The Anti-Targ]

26 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

So why did all the "frustrated" people vote for Trump and not Sanders? What was so appealing about Trump?
Take away the race factor, and you still have a very basic choice between the left and the right. And the right, by definition, does not care about the average citizen. It never has. And yet people get tricked, again and again.
Progressives think it's about race because they don't understand why else would people choose the candidate who very obviously will not give a damn about them.

 

Isn't it also about gays, trans-people, gun rights and abortion? Wasn't there an interview recently of a Democratic congressman (or candidate) who is pro-life and the interviewer straight up asked "why are you a Democrat and not a Republican? Seems like there is a very strong perception, and perhaps a reality, that a lot of people vote on moral grounds rather than economic grounds, and hence will vote against their economic interests and for their moral interests. To some extent race is something these so-called moral voters perhaps simply ignore as not relevant to them. They may even think that some of the racist stuff that's bubbled to the surface is pretty bad, but abortion, guns and gays are just much more important matters for them and hence they will vote for the candidate who makes the right noises about those issues. And on at least 2 of those 3 issues a person like Sanders is on the wrong side, so they won't give Sanders a look in, even if they like his economic message.

[Darth Richard II]

What the fuck is a "spiritual descendant" and why are we even talking about this?

[Rippounet]

5 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Seems like there is a very strong perception, and perhaps a reality, that a lot of people vote on moral grounds rather than economic grounds, and hence will vote against their economic interests and for their moral interests. To some extent race is something these so-called moral voters perhaps simply ignore as not relevant to them. They may even think that some of the racist stuff that's bubbled to the surface is pretty bad, but abortion, guns and gays are just much more important matters for them and hence they will vote for the candidate who makes the right noises about those issues. And on at least 2 of those 3 issues a person like Sanders is on the wrong side, so they won't give Sanders a look in, even if they like his economic message.

Very well put, sir.
The irony being that as far as morality goes, Trump was never exactly a shining star -to say the least.
But as you said, he made the right noises on the specific issues that conservatives value so much.
And that was enough for many, even those that weren't racist or sexist or any other color of "deplorables."
But it's also why I have so little sympathy for the conservative crowd. Whatever one thinks of these "moral interests," if people put them so far above their economic interests then they can't blame anyone but themselves for "being ignored." Their frustration is of their own making.
It's just a tragedy that they drag the other half of the population with them.

[Bonnot OG]

GOV Rick Scott declared a state of emergency for Richard Spencer's little nazi get together at UF where he will be preaching his country club yacht club nazism to scumbag young republicans. The Government is literally catering to these fucks.

People are still falling for the just voicing their opinions bullshit and parroting it like fucking robots. Why is he there to "just voice his opinion", which is nazism? To indoctrinate and recruit. Wake the fuck up.

[TerraPrime]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I'm not a Trump supporter, but I know many. And, they're not the people that so many claim them to be. They are simply people that truly feel like they've been ignored for decades. Nothing done to help spur economic growth. Have to drive hour's away or simply work "down the road" to have enough money to support their family. You can give me all your proposals from your favorite politician, but what has been done? Nothing. That's the fact. I don't care if it's Trump, Hillary, W, Bill, Bernie or Obama who has a great idea. Nothing is done. And, people get frustrated. People thought maybe a guy that thumbed his nose at both sides of the fence, might actually get something done. That was their thinking. Sure, then there is a portion that loved the racist rhetoric, of course. That was in display in Charlottesville.   

"Nothing" has been done largely because the people suffering from the widening economic disparity kept voting for politicians who stymie, block, and derail these policies that help them. Like, for instance, raising national minimum wage, or the Obamacare plans. 

It is tremendously difficult to bail out a sinking boat when the people in the boat are adding water to it. 

I'd also dispute that "nothing" has been done. The Obamacare alone has helped millions of low-income individuals to get health care. In red states that adopted the expansion, people love it and want it, as long as it's not called "Obamacare." 

That is bullshit, and I am going to call them on it. 

I want to help them, whether they want the help or not. But I'll be damned if I don't speak up when they pull stunts like that. They are their own worst enemies and I am trying to help them, at my own expense of tax rates, despite of themselves. I don't need a cookie, but I have no patience for that kind of whining, either. 

Also, I am not going to excuse their misogyny or racism just because they rightfully feel economically marginalized. Plenty of poor people are NOT racist or sexist. The two do not go hand in hand, always. I cannot sell out one group I care about to help another group I care about. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Now, when I hear white privledge the only thing that comes to mind to me, is in a nutshell, racial profiling.

We can unpack this, for the n'th time, but not in the politics thread. Start a thread on privileges if you care to continue. 

[Darth Richard II]

What does Orrmund have to do with this?

[Yukle]

27 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

... while an angel told him the secrets of the universe in the Reformed Egyptian (sic) language.

I don't understand this. Do you mean he claims the language was called "Reformed Egyptian" or that a now-dead language reformed just for him to hear it, understand it and then disappear again?

If so, pity he didn't become a linguist. How Egyptians spoke is a matter of huge debate and his apparently divine intervention would've been really handy.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

All books that stop at chapter 11

That was a solid right there. Multi-plussies.

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

We could combine it with the Pence library and it would be nothing but Chick Tracts and Porno Mags.

I think Chick Porno Tracks would be divine as Chick Tracts are nearly porno anyway.