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U.S. Politics: We're Saying Merry Christmas, Again


Manhole Eunuchsbane

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12 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

There's also the rallies they have, you know, where they dress up like nazis and wave around the nazi flag and do the nazi salute.

And bellow "Heil Hitler" for fucks sake.

If it squacks like a Nazi, salutes like a Nazi and, you know, kills people like a fucking Nazi, then ya, Nazis.  

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

mmm no, all of the alt right are just fucking nazis.

At the very least they are sympathizers. 

1 hour ago, Week said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/opinion/alt-right-white-supremacy-undercover.html?_r=0

There is evidence to the contrary -- these certainly sound like Nazis.The article goes on to describe the intentional, concerted effort of engaging with a younger audience through memes and jokes (essentially) to lay the groundwork for less public and more noxious views -- like those quoted above.

He'll ignore that and just pedal more apologist bullshit.

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

There's also the rallies they have, you know, where they dress up like nazis and wave around the nazi flag and do the nazi salute.

They get invited to speeches at colleges and propagate, indoctrinate by planting seeds for potential recruits. They also do this to get normalized and eventually attain legitimacy. Then they run for office so they can implement their policies to get what they want, a white ethno-state / Aryan nation. Make genocide against the marginalized legal again by calling for "peaceful" ethnic cleansing and making deportation seem voluntary. And when people resist (which they will) they will start with death camps after people fight back against being discriminated against and forced to move. They will justify the genocide by saying, see, look at how these lesser people are violent towards us when we offer them a "peaceful" option. 

Hell, they probably won't even really deport anyone. They'l just have the death camps ready and send people to them.

Then what happens internationally? Who stops it when the US has a huge stockpile of nukes and the largest and most powerful navy?

 

1 hour ago, Nasty LongRider said:

And bellow "Heil Hitler" for fucks sake.

If it squacks like a Nazi, salutes like a Nazi and, you know, kills people like a fucking Nazi, then ya, Nazis.  

They also believe in PC version of an Aryan nation (white ethno state), attract white supremacists (kkk and nazis among them), one of it's extremely vocal "leaders" has been caught on video sieg heiling multiple times. Another one of those "leaders" was out with the other one who was caught sieg heiling. As the one sang america the beauitful, the other was sieg heiling during it in front of the stage.


 

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Maybe Altherion thinks they're cosplayers. After all they still don't have the style a real Hugo Boss Nazi uniform gives.

Wouldn't be shocking, nor would I be shocked at altherion being friends with alt righters either. Might explain being such an apologist for them and the willful ignorance.

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57 minutes ago, Triskan said:

It really does hammer the point home to me that it was the immigration issue that really propelled Trump over the other GOP candidates.  Not having a different stance on social security or anything like that.  

And that's not to say that the nazis from that article represent all of Trump's base, but I do think that both the nazi Trump supporters and the less nazi-ish folks share something which is feeling like America is under siege from brown people.  MAGA means get the brown people out not "maintain the social security system."  

It's interesting to reflect back on 2012 when Obama won and there was the so-called Republican autopsy which recommended basically still being uber-capitalists but talking nicer about Latinos.  It seemed like most of the party's leadership wanted to go in that direction, and instead Trump stomped all over it.

 

The base stomped all over it first. Trump just kinda swooped in to the wreckage of the GOP establishment as it's base revolted against it. It's why the House is so fucking nuts that Boehner just up and quit. The inmates took over the asylum.

The fundamental problem the GOP has on this issue is that their base is a bunch of white supremacists and always has been. They actively brought these people on board during the realignment of the last century and then they tried to paper it over and indoctrinate them with "intellectual conservatism" and it's pro-rich-white-man creedo of low taxes and no regulation. But it turns out, even after 50 years, almost no one gives a shit about that stuff. To the base it's all just dog whistles for "fuck black people". They only believe in "conservatism" in so much as it aligns with their racial and cultural goals.

So they voted the establishment out when they could and they supported Trump. Cause Trump gave them everything they wanted: pure white supremacy and strong man fascism, with none of that conservative bullshit. He ran on not talking about taking their toys away but just taking them away from minorities, which is what they've always wanted.

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22 hours ago, Darzin said:

So reading the news lately I am somewhat concerned about the lefts seeming lack of support for any immigration control whatsoever.  After Trump’s election it just kind of happened where now you see a lot of articles bemoaning the deportation of undocumented immigrants. I mean as the law stands people lacking a visa have no legal rights to be in the country unless you change that I really don’t see the issue with existing laws being enforced. I’ve seen articles bemoaning an immigrant being arrested for dropping off their kids, and this one talking about ICE agents arresting people at court. Shockingly the law is enforced at a courthouse. I mean I get what their criticizing that it makes it hard for undocumented immigrants to use the court system, but that’s really criticizing a symptom rather than the problem. The problem is that we’ve failed so much with immigration control that undocumented people need to use the courthouse or are even allowed is the problem.

 

I mean I’ve lived abroad quite a bit and I can’t think of a country where I would be able to go to court with no visa. I’d need to show my passport and with no visa well then I would be deported. I understand the temptation to move somewhere when you really want to without the proper visa. I’ve lived places without 100% correct documentation, and if I was found out by the police I would expect to be summarily deported or at least fined and need to be careful around police. I live in China now and some teachers are working illegally on a tourist visa or without proper documentation it opens them up to exploitation by their employer, but no one says oh they should just stay in China. The answer is to get correct documentation.

 

I mean take a look at this article here, it’s meant to be sympathetic look at the police harassing the brown people. But the reason they are doing it is because those people have no right to be in the country and the job of ICE is to remove people who are not in the country. Many of the articles I’ve been reading on left wing news sights seem to take an issue with this. I get that Trump is horrible and a racist and I get that ICE rounding up families and people who have committed no crimes, but lack the documentation to be here feels very fascist. But every country controls their borders and what many on the left seem to be passively advocating although I don’t think they’ve thought it through is a system where if you manage to get here you can stay whether you have a visa or no. Which to me seems an absolutely insane proposition, if you wanto fix the immigration system then fix and if you can’t then leaving people in a legal gray area and rewarding those who break the law to come here but just letting them stay in limbo is an absurd proposition. I don’t see any problem with deporting people who lack a visa or residency permit just like every other country in the world does and I think the left really needs to think about what many of us are advocating.

Look up Dreamers. Your views on the immigration issue here are trite and overly simplistic.

The reason these people use the courts is because the local government wants them to. They want people to report crime and testify and help the cops do their job. It's why things like sanctuary cities exist and it's why the local and state level cops want nothing to do with helping the racist shits at ICE out.

The immigration problem isn't "these people need to be removed", it's a question of why they are in the US in the first place and the fact that Congress has done nothing about it for decades. A lot of these people are here because the US needs them. The US uses these people's labour and in fact blindly border-control-centric policy changes during the 60s to 80s (I think changes might actually extend into the 90s even) are exactly why the US has the problem they do in the first place. The US cracked down on the symptom of people crossing the border but did nothing about the cause of it. So people kept crossing like they always have except the US made it such a pain to do they just stayed and raised families instead of going back home.

And Congress has over the past like 30-40 years just completely refused to do anything about the issue, leading to the problem going on right now.

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6 minutes ago, Shryke said:

The base stomped all over it first. Trump just kinda swooped in to the wreckage of the GOP establishment as it's base revolted against it. It's why the House is so fucking nuts that Boehner just up and quit. The inmates took over the asylum.

The fundamental problem the GOP has on this issue is that their base is a bunch of white supremacists and always has been. They actively brought these people on board during the realignment of the last century and then they tried to paper it over and indoctrinate them with "intellectual conservatism" and it's pro-rich-white-man creedo of low taxes and no regulation. But it turns out, even after 50 years, almost no one gives a shit about that stuff. To the base it's all just dog whistles for "fuck black people". They only believe in "conservatism" in so much as it aligns with their racial and cultural goals.

So they voted the establishment out when they could and they supported Trump. Cause Trump gave them everything they wanted: pure white supremacy and strong man fascism, with none of that conservative bullshit. He ran on not talking about taking their toys away but just taking them away from minorities, which is what they've always wanted.

It's not even a dog whistle anymore, it's a bullhorn and a huge PA system. 

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10 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

It's not even a dog whistle anymore, it's a bullhorn and a huge PA system. 

Yeah, that's the appeal.

The establishment believes in the rhetoric but they energize the base with the wink and the nod that "What we really mean is fuck minorities and women and liberals".

But the base, even after all these years, doesn't believe in the text, only the subtext.

And as the people raised in the conservative infosphere, the true believers, begin running for office they start saying the subtext outloud. And then along comes Trump.

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Just now, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I was wondering if Altherion would change his views once it became absolutely clear that Trump does not give a fuck about the poor or middle class.

I guess the answer is no.

No, now he just cares more about Bannon, who aligns heavily with @Altherion on most things - wanting to bring the system down, destroying the 'elite' (where elite means anyone that doesn't share his worldview), combined with a nice dose of white nationalism and peaceful ethnic cleansing. It's got all the good things that Altherion hoped for with Trump with very few of the bad things. 

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4 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

And bellow "Heil Hitler" for fucks sake.

If it squacks like a Nazi, salutes like a Nazi and, you know, kills people like a fucking Nazi, then ya, Nazis.  

And "Blood and soil" which is a Nazi slogan. And use the term Lügenpresse, which has a long history but the Nazis co-opted. Or manifestos like this one:

Quote
  • We are a Nationalist organization that is fighting for the political, social and economic interests of White men and women in North America.

White is defined as those who are overwhelmingly the descendants of indigenous Europeans. Jews and other groups who have light skin but are not Europeans are separate ethnicities and thus should have their own homes, separate from ours. Edge cases will be organically decided on a case-by-case basis, accounting for culture, assimilation, merit, and loyalty.

We believe in self-determination for our race and every race to peacefully opt out of the failed multicultural American Empire and to create a Homeland free from imperialism, control, or influence by any foreign nationality or group. These new nations will be run for and by the people for which they have been established.

The purpose of the Nationalist Front is to unite pro-White organizations ideologically with shared standards and codes of conduct while working together to achieve the main objective: The creation of an ethno-state for White people in North America.

We ally ourselves and support solidarity with nationalists from around the world, both European and non-European, who are facing the same enemies of Zionism, capitalism, globalism and imperialism. We are all facing the same foe and thus we declare “Same Enemy, Same Barricades.”

We reject the notion of a “proposition nation.” Nations are built on blood, culture, language and traditions; they are organic expressions of a people. The nation must be an embodiment of the will of the people and stand for their best racial, moral and economic interests.

We support traditional European values and reject the culture of degeneracy and death that currently pervades the West. Through cultural and racial renewal can we reinstate the values of our forefathers within our society.

while marching armed outside non-Christian places of worship in small town America.

But, totally not Nazis.

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10 hours ago, Altherion said:

Spencer would be lucky to get 5% of the vote today and even though his prospects are improving, he's not likely to get more than 15% anytime soon. His followers are even less impressive. However... I wouldn't entirely rule out somebody significantly wealthier and more aligned with corporate interests who shares a substantial fraction Spencer's ideas (but isn't so vocal about it) running for a Congressional or gubernatorial seat relatively soon and winning.

Yeah, or even the White House...

Oh, wait...

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9 hours ago, Sword of Doom said:

It's not even a dog whistle anymore, it's a bullhorn and a huge PA system. 

I always wondered where the George Wallace supporters went when he left the Democratic Party. I  was hoping they had all died off by now but that was wishful thinking.

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11 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

mmm no, all of the alt right are just fucking nazis.

Not exactly. From what I can tell, there are six types of people who are active in one way or another on the alt-right: Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, white nationalists, individuals with white racial resentment, trolls and those who don’t really understand the totality of what they’re supporting. There is understandably a fair bit of overlap from group to group, but they don’t all stand for the same thing. However, that doesn’t mean that they’re not intentionally or unintentionally working towards the worst aspects of the darkest parts of the alt-right.

The Neo-Nazis are obviously the vilest part of this cohort, but I suspect they also represent the smallest sub-section. What makes them unique from the other groups within the alt-right is that they’re the only ones actively advocating for genocide and mass murder, among other things. I wonder how serious the other groups are in engaging in violence as a means to their goals, but I do not with these Nazi scumbags. They would be killing people in the street if they thought they could with impunity.

The white supremacists are almost as odious, but like I said above, I’m not sure they are as equally blood thirsty as their Neo-Nazi counterparts. These people genuinely believe in the superiority of white people, but I’m not sure how many of them actually believe in using violence as a means to an end. I’m certain that a disturbingly high number of them do, but they’re not the same as the Neo-Nazis, which have signed up for an agenda of genocide. Still, they’re truly awful people who probably don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to violence and should be treated with equal scorn as the Neo-Nazis.

The white nationalists are less geared towards thoughts of superiority and more interested in living in a white, likely Christian, nation. This doesn’t preclude them from engaging in violence, but to me it strikes me more like several posters here we’ve seen over the last few years who’ve complained about being made to feel bad because they want to live in a society that looks and sounds like them. It’s a deeply unenlightened world view, but at the primal level it is somewhat understandable. It’s something that I’d never support, but the sentiment is not that uncommon and is not unique to white Americans. I do feel like these people, unlike the people in the previous two groups, can have their minds changed, and it will take a lot of patience and hard work, but it is possible, and because of that reason I’m willing to allow a shred of hope for these people unlike the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists, but I’m not optimistic.

Individuals who are experience white racial resentment likely make up the largest sub-group of the alt-right (funny when I first wrote that I had a Freudian slip and wrote “alt-white”), and experiencing white racial resent was the biggest indicator that you were likely going to support Trump and that you eventually supported Trump. There’s really nothing shocking about that statement, as Trump’s entire campaign was geared towards reminding people of a time when whites, specifically white men, had it better and that he intended to shifted the country’s trajectory back in that direction. There’s a lot of different ways to describe white racial resentment, but I think the simplest explanation is that these are white people who are tired and resentful of non-whites trying to make them feel bad simply because they are white. There’s obviously more layers to it than that, but it’s the general underlying cause for their feelings. I genuinely believe that a majority of people who feel this way, so long as they can be open minded, can have their minds changed. I few weeks back I wrote a long post about how the language you use greatly affects your ability to open their eyes to why they’re wrong for feeling the way they do and I think it’s important to take that to heart.

There’s no time wasting your efforts with the trolls. Who knows what they really believe, if they believe anything at all, but that is a sunken cost. Just ignore them. They aren’t worth your time and effort, just like they aren’t worth mine to even discuss them in any serious sense.

The last group is those who don’t fully understand the path they’re beginning to travel down. I would argue that it’s your civil duty to intervene and try to help them understand what they’re playing with. There are a myriad of reasons why they may be heading down the alt-right road, and often times they get indoctrinated bit by bit, rather than being shown the movement’s awful conclusions, so if you can snip that early you might save an individual from becoming something they never could have foreseen. Often times these people aren’t even experiencing any of the motivations discussed above and are just mad at the world for a number of given reasons. The leaders of the alt-right will use that unfocused anger and manipulate them into thinking that the reason why they should be mad is because of minorities, women, liberals, immigrants, etc. and it can be an extremely effective. Don’t let it be, no matter how upset you might be at these individuals for feeling they way they do.

So in conclusion, no, everyone on the alt-right isn’t a Nazi, but they’re all being used to advance the goals of Neo-Nazis and white supremacists. But we need to do whatever we can to cut off as much support that they receive as possible, no matter how frustrating the effort might seem. We cannot let these awful people gain an inch of power, and so far they are outmaneuvering those who oppose them, and worse, those are indifferent to them. 

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27 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I always wondered where the George Wallace supporters went when he left the Democratic Party. I  was hoping they had all died off by now but that was wishful thinking.

They were very deliberately courted by Nixon and Reagan and are now the base of the Republican Party.

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41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

he white nationalists are less geared towards thoughts of superiority and more interested in living in a white, likely Christian, nation. This doesn’t preclude them from engaging in violence, but to me it strikes me more like several posters here we’ve seen over the last few years who’ve complained about being made to feel bad because they want to live in a society that looks and sounds like them. It’s a deeply unenlightened world view, but at the primal level it is somewhat understandable. It’s something that I’d never support, but the sentiment is not that uncommon and is not unique to white Americans. I do feel like these people, unlike the people in the previous two groups, can have their minds changed, and it will take a lot of patience and hard work, but it is possible, and because of that reason I’m willing to allow a shred of hope for these people unlike the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists, but I’m not optimistic.

I’ve always thought ‘nationalist’ was a weird description of an international, Kremlin-backed movement.

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48 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I’ve always thought ‘nationalist’ was a weird description of an international, Kremlin-backed movement.

I thought historically nationalist regimes try to foster other nationalist regimes in foreign states.

On an unrelated note, Trump and Corker are attacking each other in public in a way I’ve never seen before. Corker gave a few scorching interviews this morning and Trump is losing his mind on Twitter.

They’re set to have lunch today. That should be warm and fun.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not exactly. From what I can tell, there are six types of people who are active in one way or another on the alt-right [snip]

I have no idea why you think this is some sort of important distinction.

Stop for a second and think. Do you not realise that the actual, historical Nazis encompassed all of these groups, or pretty much all? So how is it not accurate to describe a modern coalition of those groups as Nazis?

This is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff.

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14 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Trump has now personally and specifically attacked one fifth of the GOP senators:

Corker, Cruz, Flake, McCain, Collins, Graham, Murkowski, Rubio, Heller, McConnell, Paul, Sasse. 

Gotta keep those senators in line!

Making America Great Again, one twitter fight at a time.

Just kidding :) It's multiple twitter fights at a time!

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