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Roose Bolton's father


The Sunland Lord

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What was his father's name? 

GRRM bothered to write down many family trees of others, even lesser lords, but what do we know about the father of Roose? 

If the writer left out his father's first name and history, I don't think it's a coincidence. The Boltons are not that small of a deal in the story. 

Isn't it suspicious we know next to nothing about Roose as a young heir to the Dreadfort? We know a thing or two even about Walder Frey's childhood, who is a hundred years ago. 

Can anyone give an answer?

 

 

 

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We don't have much on the Daynes either.   

In the mean time think about what we do know about the Boltons.   They were the last of the Northern families to serve the Starks.   They were the Red Kings in the days of magic and wonder.   Roose has had only male children and accepted Ramsay because the babe had his eyes--chips of dirty ice.   Roose accepts that Ramsay  killed his true born son Domeric.   Roose is a weird guy.  I went through what you're going through a while back.   The Boltons are fascinating characters and the lack of information is maddening.   But it's also part of their wonderful mystery.   We will get information when our author is ready to give it and not a moment before.   

For now, Friend, think about what magic the Red Kings might have had.  Think about why the Boltons flayed their enemies.   Nothing says skinchanger to me more than wearing another man's skin as a cloak.   Think about characteristics of the Boltons we do know of.  Creepy!    Lack of family tree is there to add to your experience.   

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7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We don't have much on the Daynes either.   

In the mean time think about what we do know about the Boltons.   They were the last of the Northern families to serve the Starks.   They were the Red Kings in the days of magic and wonder.   Roose has had only male children and accepted Ramsay because the babe had his eyes--chips of dirty ice.   Roose accepts that Ramsay  killed his true born son Domeric.   Roose is a weird guy.  I went through what you're going through a while back.   The Boltons are fascinating characters and the lack of information is maddening.   But it's also part of their wonderful mystery.   We will get information when our author is ready to give it and not a moment before.   

For now, Friend, think about what magic the Red Kings might have had.  Think about why the Boltons flayed their enemies.   Nothing says skinchanger to me more than wearing another man's skin as a cloak.   Think about characteristics of the Boltons we do know of.  Creepy!    Lack of family tree is there to add to your experience.   

Yes, this is all so damn weird.

And I am not even advocating the bolt-on theory.

It can be tens of other things.

Roose may be a kinslayer already and took his lordship by killing his own father. What he says to Theon about kinslaying (as if he's afraid of some Gods) might be a bag of lies. He is after all a proven traitor, a rapist, war criminal and what not. 

"A peaceful land, a quiet people." He might've put his father and his son(s) under a peaceful land for all we know. How would the story spread if his people are so quiet, without tongues, for example?

I am aware of the Red Kings. But we have no idea whether Roose is truly their descendant. Again, because-who his father was/is?

Your skinchanging thing is a new moment to me. I see them as two different things: Warging (or some sort of it) and an actual skin-wearing.

If the six Starks kids (including Jon) are skinchangers, and the Boltons are skinchangers too-could they be more related than just being descendants of the First Men? I personally don't find a connection here because warging is not an exclusive Stark thing, plus the wearing skin as cloak is another thing entirely.

On the other hand, Catelyn makes a note that Roose loves his dogs more than his son. We see Ramsay hunts people with his dogs. These are his "amusements". Warging can be done through dogs, also.

It may add to the confusion and doubts, for sure.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Yes, this is all so damn weird.

And I am not even advocating the bolt-on theory.

It can be tens of other things.

Roose may be a kinslayer already and took his lordship by killing his own father. What he says to Theon about kinslaying (as if he's afraid of some Gods) might be a bag of lies. He is after all a proven traitor, a rapist, war criminal and what not. 

"A peaceful land, a quiet people." He might've put his father and his son(s) under a peaceful land for all we know. How would the story spread if his people are so quiet, without tongues, for example?

I am aware of the Red Kings. But we have no idea whether Roose is truly their descendant. Again, because-who his father was/is?

Your skinchanging thing is a new moment to me. I see them as two different things: Warging (or some sort of it) and an actual skin-wearing.

If the six Starks kids (including Jon) are skinchangers, and the Boltons are skinchangers too-could they be more related than just being descendants of the First Men? I personally don't find a connection here because warging is not an exclusive Stark thing, plus the wearing skin as cloak is another thing entirely.

On the other hand, Catelyn makes a note that Roose loves his dogs more than his son. We see Ramsay hunts people with his dogs. These are his "amusements". Warging can be done through dogs, also.

It may add to the confusion and doubts, for sure.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure we are supposed to be confused so much as exactly how you feel--wanting.    This Martin guy spins a great tale and no small part is what he leaves out.   So let's talk about it.  But let's clarify some things up front.    The Stark kids are wargs, not necessarily skin changers.  Warg is a special thing with wolves.   From what I gather from Varamyr, this is a top drawer first class thing.   Isn't it curious that we also get the rules for skinchanging from Varamyr's perspective as well...

I know no more than you about Roose's father.   What I do know that is in order to become Kings of Winter the Starks had to kill the Kings and marry their daughters.   If we take it on faith this was done with The Warg, Marsh and Barrows kings why wouldn't that extend to the Red kings as well?   This would of course throw a little more magic into the Bolton gene pool, being the last conquest with all that good necromancy and warging and COTF dna firmly established in the Stark line.  At this point in the story the Stark dire wolves are the first in what--500 years (?) south of the Wall?   Dragons are back after 150 years.   Glass Candles are burning after who knows how long.  The point is all the magic is waking NOW.  

So here's Roose, liar, betrayer, murder, kinslayer (for surely he and the Starks have blood ties if no where else but that 1st wife), kingslayer, opportunist and all around creep.  He's nearly at the top of his game, Warden in the North.   The thing with Roose is he isn't stupid.   He's very controlled.   But he wasn't always this way.    The rape of Ramsay's mother seemed a real spur of the moment thing, just as giving Reek to help look after the bastard was a joke.    That guy is not the Roose you and I know.   I submit with the reawakening of magic in all the world, Roose's own familial magic is coming to the fore.  May be that magic manifests in Ramsay with his creepy eyes, but I have to ask myself what Ned or Catelyn would think if they could see the magic in Arya or Bran--even just the warging with Rickon and Jon.    What the heck would they think of that?   Perhaps Roose recognizes this magical thing in Ramsay and maybe it's no more than a reminder of the real Red Kings before they were defeated.   The dads were anything but stupid.   They would recognize the old ways as they unfolded around them.    You and I might consider Ramsay a nutjob, but his bloodlust may be a simple throw back to his distant forefathers or mothers, as the case may be.   

It doesn't matter if Roose killed his own father.  Roose and Ramsay are what we have as scions of the Dreadfort.  That murdering for sport, ferocious fighting and vicious skin flaying could all be traits of the real Boltons.   

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Ah dang it, sorry I hit send before I addressed your warging/skinchanging. It's a great topic I really enjoy talking about so thanks.   We don't know what all the Stark kids are yet.    We know Jon, Bran and Rickon see ghosts.    We know they all warg.   We know Bran and Arya skinchange.  We're pretty sure Bran is a greenseer.   Warging is as I stated above, specific to wolves.   Skinchanging as I began to say with Varamyr's rules in mind, is the inhabiting of a different animal or even a human.   Which I find most curious since our sweet little Bran does a lot of human skin changing.  I spent some time really researching the Boltons, which means nothing because I found nothing more astounding than the Bolt-on idea.  Still, I got to really wondering about those Red kings and considering the magic pool available to the Starks back in the day.   Skinchanging is the thing the other 3 kings did not offer.   Then I got to assuming all the talk of wearing cloaks of human skin to be exactly wearing another skin.   One thing led to another and it's all tied up in my mind.   I think the Red Kings were the human skin changers who maybe kept the flaying tradition as a way to keep the blood memory alive.   Take it or leave it, but that's where my mind went.   

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not so sure we are supposed to be confused so much as exactly how you feel--wanting.    This Martin guy spins a great tale and no small part is what he leaves out.   So let's talk about it.  But let's clarify some things up front.    The Stark kids are wargs, not necessarily skin changers.  Warg is a special thing with wolves.   From what I gather from Varamyr, this is a top drawer first class thing.   Isn't it curious that we also get the rules for skinchanging from Varamyr's perspective as well...

I know no more than you about Roose's father.   What I do know that is in order to become Kings of Winter the Starks had to kill the Kings and marry their daughters.   If we take it on faith this was done with The Warg, Marsh and Barrows kings why wouldn't that extend to the Red kings as well?   This would of course throw a little more magic into the Bolton gene pool, being the last conquest with all that good necromancy and warging and COTF dna firmly established in the Stark line.  At this point in the story the Stark dire wolves are the first in what--500 years (?) south of the Wall?   Dragons are back after 150 years.   Glass Candles are burning after who knows how long.  The point is all the magic is waking NOW.  

So here's Roose, liar, betrayer, murder, kinslayer (for surely he and the Starks have blood ties if no where else but that 1st wife), kingslayer, opportunist and all around creep.  He's nearly at the top of his game, Warden in the North.   The thing with Roose is he isn't stupid.   He's very controlled.   But he wasn't always this way.    The rape of Ramsay's mother seemed a real spur of the moment thing, just as giving Reek to help look after the bastard was a joke.    That guy is not the Roose you and I know.   I submit with the reawakening of magic in all the world, Roose's own familial magic is coming to the fore.  May be that magic manifests in Ramsay with his creepy eyes, but I have to ask myself what Ned or Catelyn would think if they could see the magic in Arya or Bran--even just the warging with Rickon and Jon.    What the heck would they think of that?   Perhaps Roose recognizes this magical thing in Ramsay and maybe it's no more than a reminder of the real Red Kings before they were defeated.   The dads were anything but stupid.   They would recognize the old ways as they unfolded around them.    You and I might consider Ramsay a nutjob, but his bloodlust may be a simple throw back to his distant forefathers or mothers, as the case may be.   

It doesn't matter if Roose killed his own father.  Roose and Ramsay are what we have as scions of the Dreadfort.  That murdering for sport, ferocious fighting and vicious skin flaying could all be traits of the real Boltons.   

Yes thanks for your correction-warging is not exactly the same as skinchanging, but one of its forms. So the Stark kids are wargs specifically. I got them mixed up because of a thought of Bran in A Storm of Swords : "What good is it to be a skinchanger if you can't wear the skin you like"? This thought, on the other hand, taken literally, can be related to your point from the last post and if you view it that way, wearing someone's skin as cloak is the exact result you get. The old Bolton's way.

While all the magic in the universe is waking up, maybe Ramsay's birth has something to do with it and represents the waking of the Red Kings' magic-whatever it was. For sure though-he is this kind of man some other old nans in a distant future would tell tales about and the little chuldren would take them just as stories. He is that much unbelieveable. His level is not lower than the Bolton's who made cloaks of the skins of a hundred Sistermen, centuries ago. 

In my opinion, Roose is acting differently from his younger days because of the placebo (or the real, depends) effect of his regular leechings.

At the end of ACoK, while at Harrenhal, after he is leeched, his behavior seemed to me as one of a man who is drugged. Evidently, he views this as his treatment. In that kind of a supposed good mood, he tells Arya a valuable info about his future plans with Harrenhal (leaving it to Vargo) and makes her save herself and run.

Politically, he is then in a 100% turncloak mode. Commands that a castle should be put to the torch and all its people executed, acting on behalf of the king. Sends thousands northmen to their certain deaths. This is him being on the meds. He now thinks clearly, and it's clear he has to switch sides completely. 

 

 

 

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@The Sunland Lord, you've picked up on some interesting behaviors linked directly to those leechings.   Made me think of Mel's leeches.   Wonder what was done with Roose's leeches after ward?   It is stressed that Roose doesn't drink and here you have potential drugging.   I like it.   Keep going with it.    If a part of the story really speaks to you, pursue it.  I've found all kinds of oddities that stand out.  This is how you really enjoy things for the years between books.   i look forward to many more interesting posts from you, Man.  

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I seem to be having a heck of a time using the lap top as opposed to the desk top.   Sorry again.   I meant to address Ramsay's potential magic as you muse above.   Ramsay probably isn't magic, but I think Roose thinks he may be.   This peculiar habit of Roose's leechings may point directly to that.    Still, I think if I was a descendant of the old kings I would recognize the behaviors and even possibly the eye color of this bastard son.    We've got Rhaegar thinking first that he was TWTWP then changing his focus to his son.    Maybe he was only a representative of other ancient families with similar ideas.   This puts me back to considering Reek as a joke and ask you if you see Roose having any sense of humor at all.    It's clear that Reek was bad news with Roose had him.   Is it possible this creature was given to Ramsay to teach the child the old ways?    Hrm...that's a new one to me, but may bear consideration.  The point is we don't know what each family uses as heralds or markers of their own TPWTP or whatever they call them.    I think it's safe to say the Dustins will see ghosts or find their dead rising, the Blackwoods (most likely) will warg, the Targs will have dragons, the Reeds will have green dreams and the Boltons will wear other skins literally and figuratively.  Now I feel like delving into all the magic of ancient Westeros--Garth's kids, the Iron Born and Dorne even to see if any of their old magic seems to be coming to the fore.   Is it possible it's already there in the Wildling camps and we've over looked it?    

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16 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

What was his father's name? 

GRRM bothered to write down many family trees of others, even lesser lords, but what do we know about the father of Roose? 

If the writer left out his father's first name and history, I don't think it's a coincidence. The Boltons are not that small of a deal in the story. 

Isn't it suspicious we know next to nothing about Roose as a young heir to the Dreadfort? We know a thing or two even about Walder Frey's childhood, who is a hundred years ago. 

Can anyone give an answer?

Roose Bolton's father was the Night's King. When Joramun and the King of Winter slew the NK and his corpse bride, "Roose" as he is called now, was next in line to be sacrificed to the Others. Being the NK's heir, he inherited his ancestral lands and titles, which was likely the Dreadfort, but may have been Winterfell or one of the other northern seats.

From that point, Roose discovered that he had the ability to literally skinchange with his blood relatives -- that is, kill them, flay them and wear their skins in a perfect likeness, all except the eyes, which remain pale as milkglass. So for the past seven thousand years or so, Roose has been fathering sons on human women, and when the time is right, change into their bodies and, of course, serve as the next lord of whatever for another generation.

This explains a number of things about Roose:

The flayed-man sigil of his house

His pale skin, and the fact that he doesn't sweat

His almost complete lack of hair

The fact that he can quiet even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon with barely a whisper

Why he has to leech himself constantly -- to prevent the blood from pooling in his extremities

Why, as Lady Dustin puts it, "Roose plays with men," since they are so short-lived that their lives are not worth much

And most importantly, why he not only did not execute Ramsey for killing Dom but rewarded him with legitimacy, lands and titles. Roose, if you'll recall, knew Ramsey was his right away just by the eyes. So if Dom was in fact the son of Brandon Stark, then he is not a candidate for skin-changing. By ridding himself of Dom and raising Ramsey, Roose now has a path to not only maintain the lordship of the Dreadfort but work his way back into Winterfell. I say back because it seems that he has served as the King of Winter before in the guise of figures like Brandon "Ice-Eyes." Incidentally, this would also be how Stark blood became infused with Ice, which, when combined with Targaryen Fire blood in the form of Jon Snow, we get the Song of Ice and Fire wrapped up in a single person.

People call this "Bolt-on" but it's actually a lot more nuanced than Roose as your garden-variety vampire/zombie.

Sometime in the next two books, look for Roose to die, and then see if you don't notice Ramsey suddenly calming down, start speaking in whispers and leeching himself.

 

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And, while we're at fathers - what was the name of Rickard Karstark's father? The Greatjon's? Wyman Manderly's? Jeor Mormont's?

Maybe we're looking too much into this, you might be right. 

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@The Sunland Lord, you've picked up on some interesting behaviors linked directly to those leechings.   Made me think of Mel's leeches.   Wonder what was done with Roose's leeches after ward?   It is stressed that Roose doesn't drink and here you have potential drugging.   I like it.   Keep going with it.    If a part of the story really speaks to you, pursue it.  I've found all kinds of oddities that stand out.  This is how you really enjoy things for the years between books.   i look forward to many more interesting posts from you, Man.  

Thank you my friend, I apprecciate your support.

The thing is, I went with the flow on this matter. It just stroke me that Roose's background and childhood are misterious, we know nothing about his lord father and decided to make a thread. 

And when different opinions and questions are mixed up you can make something out of them.

As a result you provided some good insight with this skinchanging thing-which is right there all the time, but too many explanations make you decide that actual wearing skins-Bolton thing, and skinchanging as mentally and physically entering a living being (Varamyr, Stark children, etc.) are different things, but these explanations might also stop you from seeing the obvious. Who knows. 

 

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@The Sunland Lord, those 4 kings have bugged me forever.   I posted a topic over in the world book subforum in hopes of soliciting some information from the wonderful minds here in a more focused place.   Will let you know if anything good come up about the Boltons.  You are, of course, welcome to join in if a conversation actually starts up.   It feels like I haven't posted a topic in a milion years so thanks very much for inspiring me to finally address this thing.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Didn't the World of Ice and Fire establish that the Red Kings bent the knee to Winterfell when the Andals were poised to invade and then together they repulsed them, with Boltons going to Winterfell as hostages? Seems more like political and strategic concerns forced the Boltons to bend the knee rather than a marriage. As well when Roose has Ramsay and "Arya" married he says something about the union ending generations of rivalry between Starks and Boltons, which to me implies the two houses haven ever intermarried. It makes sense; the Dreadfort is a strong castle and the Boltons a strong dynasty in the North. They've even rebelled against the Starks, at least twice, and survived both wars. That says a lot. I imagine that the Starks have always viewed a Stark bride for a Bolton lord to be a bad idea as it just means a Bolton child with a blood claim on Winterfell and the North.

 

As for Roose's father... or mother... potential siblings... or his first wife... there just isn't anything there. I hope that Martin will reveal more about the Boltons in the next book. As that book seems like it will likely be the climax and ending of their storyline I certainly hope they get fleshed out more.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I also think that Roose' ancestor is the Night King.

He has no scars after many battles, and he said that he was not easy to kill.

Maybe he is even immune to the Curse of Harrenhal. Tywin Lannister, Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat and Gregor Clegane(well, sort  of...) are all dead.

 

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24 minutes ago, 1/7 Maester said:

I also think that Roose' ancestor is the Night King.

He has no scars after many battles, and he said that he was not easy to kill.

Maybe he is even immune to the Curse of Harrenhal. Tywin Lannister, Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat and Gregor Clegane(well, sort  of...) are all dead.

 

According to Old Nan, he was more likely to be a Stark, and Old Nan very often got it right.

But, house Bolton is found in the Age of Heroes. And according to the legend (Night's King existence is questionable) Night's King lived during that era. So it's possible that he was a Stark, and House Bolton was found by some offspring of his in order to survive. 

 

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9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Presumably he had one. Either that or he is made from a chipped block of ice from land of Always Winter, covered with living human skin. That's why he leaches himself. The skin still bleeds and he needs to drain the blood or it will overflow.

But Ramsay is his son and he doesn't use leeches. 

Roose's thing about leeches is that they make him think clearly and are used for his anger management. He might be honest on this one.

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I believe that the first original Bolton was a son of Night’s King (who was a Stark) and his Other queen, but unluckily, he did not inherit Stark skinchanging ability, only his mother’s eyes of ice. But after King of Winter Brandon the Breaker came and broke Night’s King and the Night’s Watch, the blood feud between the Starks and the Boltons started probably there.

Therefore, the original Bolton had a Stark blood in him, but no magical power, so he and his ancestors started to emulate Starks of Winterfell and their skinchanging abilities by flaying their enemies. Probably to prove they were no one to mess with in their own right, and to show they had enough power of fear to rule the North.

I just believe that anything that has to do with Others has Stark ties to it, and therefore, if Boltons have “icy Other” eyes, they should be connected to the Starks. That is my line of thinking at least.

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I wonder, seeing that the Starks 'absorbed' many dynastic lines. Did they mix with the Boltons too? They mixed most of their prominent bannermen: Cerwyns, Flints, Glovers, Manderlys, Umbers, probably Reeds... Not a thing with the Boltons, apparently, not any of the POVs mention it. And the Boltons were a reknowned dynastic line aswell.

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