Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Lollygag

Is Craster a Casterly? - Now with plot-relevance!

39 posts in this topic

Note: No spoilers here, only content from the first 5 books and TWOIAF. Spoiler boxes are only used for organization.

The first Casterly was named Caster and they were blessed by the old gods with gold for sparing lion cubs. They disappeared when there were no more sons during the Age of Heroes. Craster wears a gold bracelet and is connected to lords and castles. Craster’s keep recalls Casterly Rock.

 

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock.

 

Spoiler

TWOIAF

Yet by far the greatest lords in the westerlands were the Casterlys of the Rock, who had their seat in a colossal stone that rose beside the Sunset Sea.

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock.

Armed only with a spear, he slew the lion and his mate but spared her newborn cubs—an act of mercy that so pleased the old gods (for this was long before the Seven came to Westeros) that they sent a sudden shaft of sunlight deep into the cave, and there in the stony walls, Corlos beheld the gleam of yellow gold, a vein as thick as a man's waist.

The truth of that tale is lost in the mists of time, but we cannot doubt that Corlos, or some progenitor of what would become House Casterly, found gold inside the Rock and soon began to mine there. To defend his treasure against those who would make off with it, he moved inside the cave and fortified its entrance. As years and centuries passed, his descendants delved deeper and deeper into the earth, following the gold, whilst carving halls and galleries and stairways and tunnels into the Rock itself, transforming the gigantic stone into a mighty fastness that dwarfed every castle in Westeros.

The last tale, ribald as it is, has certain intriguing aspects that might hint at the truth of what occurred. It is Archmaester Perestan's belief that Lann was a retainer of some sort in service to Lord Casterly (perhaps a household guard), who impregnated his lordship's daughter (or daughters, though that seems less likely), and persuaded her father to give him the girl's hand in marriage. If indeed this was what occurred, assuming (as we must) that Lord Casterly had no trueborn sons, then in the natural course of events the Rock would have passed to the daughter, and hence to Lann, upon the father's death.

There is, to be sure, no more historical evidence for this than for any of the other versions. All that is known for certain is that sometime during the Age of Heroes, the Casterlys vanish from the chronicles, and the hitherto-unknown Lannisters appear in their place, ruling large portions of the westerlands from beneath Casterly Rock.

 

 

Craster wears a gold bracelet.
Craster also asks for Mormont’s axe which has gold inlay, but the text is unclear as to whether Craster knew about the gold inlay.

Spoiler

ACOK Jon III

Craster's new axe was on the table, its gold inlay gleaming faintly in the torchlight.

 

ACOK Jon III

Craster's sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. He looked to be a powerful man, though well into the winter of his days now, his mane of hair grey going to white. A flat nose and a drooping mouth gave him a cruel look, and one of his ears was missing.

 

ASOS Samwell II

Craster was a thick man made thicker by the ragged smelly sheepskins he wore day and night. He had a broad flat nose, a mouth that drooped to one side, and a missing ear. And though his matted hair and tangled beard might be grey going white, his hard knuckly hands still looked strong enough to hurt.

...

Craster owned but one chair. He sat in it, clad in a sleeveless sheepskin jerkin. His thick arms were covered with white hair, and about one wrist was a twisted ring of gold.

 

 

Craster is linked with lords, castles and southern ways. Craster’s keep and his mother’s home of Whitetree recall Casterly Rock.
Craster’s keep is reminiscent of Casterly Rock in that it’s on a hill, is windowless with low ceilings and long halls consistent with caves, and is linked with darkness, spirits and water like Casterly Rock’s caverns.  Crasters’ is linked with shit and piss and has a noticeable midden heap as is Whitetee which is where Craster’s mother is from. Casterly Rock is also curiously associated with shit. Tyrion cleared its drains and pisses a lot, Tywin shat gold and was killed on a privy. ACOK Jon III and ASOS Samwell II which are the chapters which most promiently feature Craster have an exceptional number of piss and shit mentions from which I’ll spare you (mostly ;)).

Spoiler

ASOS Prologue

Lark could go home if he liked, and the damn Tyroshi too, but not Chett. If he never saw Hag's Mire again, it would be too bloody soon. He had liked the look of Craster's Keep, himself. Craster lived high as a lord there, so why shouldn't he do the same? That would be a laugh. Chett the leechman's son, a lord with a keep.

 

ASOS Jon III

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse."

 

ACOK Jon III

He had never thought to find a stone castle on the far side of the Wall, but he had pictured some sort of motte-and-bailey with a wooden palisade and a timber tower keep. What they found instead was a midden heap, a pigsty, an empty sheepfold, and a windowless daub-and-wattle hall scarce worthy of the name. It was long and low, chinked together from logs and roofed with sod. The compound stood atop a rise too modest to name a hill, surrounded by an earthen dike. Brown rivulets flowed down the slope where the rain had eaten gaping holes in the defenses, to join a rushing brook that curved around to the north, its thick waters turned into a murky torrent by the rains.

On the southwest, he found an open gate flanked by a pair of animal skulls on high poles: a bear to one side, a ram to the other. Bits of flesh still clung to the bear skull, Jon noted as he joined the line riding past. Within, Jarmen Buckwell's scouts and men from Thoren Smallwood's van were setting up horse lines and struggling to raise tents. A host of piglets rooted about three huge sows in the sty. Nearby, a small girl pulled carrots from a garden, naked in the rain, while two women tied a pig for slaughter. The animal's squeals were high and horrible, almost human in their distress.

"Is Craster as savage as the rangers say?" Sam asked. The rabbit was a shade underdone, but tasted wonderful. "What's his castle like?"

"A midden heap with a roof and a firepit." Jon told Sam what he had seen and heard in Craster's Keep.

The Lord Commander had entrusted his mount to Dolorous Edd. He was cleaning mud out of the horse's hooves as Jon dismounted. "Lord Mormont's in the hall," he announced. "He said for you to join him. Best leave the wolf outside, he looks hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children. Well, truth be told, I'm hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children, so long as he was served hot. Go on, I'll see to your horse. If it's warm and dry inside, don't tell me, I wasn't asked in." He flicked a glob of wet mud out from under a horseshoe. "Does this mud look like shit to you? Could it be that this whole hill is made of Craster's shit?"

 

ADWD Tyrion XII—Tyrion specifies that the stopped drains carried shit which means that at least some places in Casterly Rock might not have smelled so nice.

"I once had charge of all the drains in Casterly Rock," Tyrion said mildly. "Some of them had been stopped up for years, but I soon had them draining merrily away." He dipped the quill in the ink again. Another dozen notes, and he would be done. "Perhaps I could supervise your camp followers. We can't have the men stopped up, now can we?"

 

ASOS Samwell II

Up in the loft, Gilly let out a shuddering sob that echoed down the long low windowless hall.

 

ACOK Jon II— Whitetree's homes sound unusually cave-like being made of stone, roofed with sod (underground so to speak), shuttered windows, low doors, dismal, smells like shit.

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide.

...

Jon had to stoop to pass through the low door. Within he found a packed dirt floor. There were no furnishings, no sign that people had lived here but for some ashes beneath the smoke hole in the roof. "What a dismal place to live," he said.

"I was born in a house much like this," declared Dolorous Edd. "Those were my enchanted years. Later I fell on hard times." A nest of dry straw bedding filled one corner of the room. Edd looked at it with longing. "I'd give all the gold in Casterly Rock to sleep in a bed again."

"You call that a bed?"

"If it's softer than the ground and has a roof over it, I call it a bed." Dolorous Edd sniffed the air. "I smell dung."

 

Maggy the Frog and Craster are both cold.  And the black blood...
The NW are called black-blooded, but we see other instances of black blood as well. Cersei observes her blood as black as she’s cursed by Maggy the Frog. Not sure how this would tie in, but it’s either relevant or quite a coincidence. Black blood ties into a lot of places, but curses seem the most consistent when one isn’t talking about the NW who use the term in a practical sense in that they aren’t part of any house.

 

Spoiler

ACOK Jon III

Thoren Smallwood swore that Craster was a friend to the Watch, despite his unsavory reputation. "The man's half-mad, I won't deny it," he'd told the Old Bear, "but you'd be the same if you'd spent your life in this cursed wood.

So long as he gives us a hot meal and a chance to dry our clothes, I'll be happy. Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

 

AFFC Cersei VIII

In the dim green tent, the blood seemed more black than red. Maggy's toothless mouth trembled at the sight of it. "Here," she whispered, "give it here." When Cersei offered her hand, she sucked away the blood with gums as soft as a newborn babe's. The queen could still remember how queer and cold her mouth had been.

 

ASOS Jon III

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse."

 

Craster hates bastards
Craster is supposedly a bastard but there seems to be more to it. He hates being called a bastard, but he hates other bastards as well which says to me that he isn’t a bastard, he’s proud. Why is this insult so serious for him that he resorts to the extreme we see below? That Craster knows he’s a Casterly of Casterly Rock yet is looked down upon by all would be one possible explanation.

Spoiler

ACOK Jon III

Sam looked dubious. "Dolorous Edd says Craster's a terrible savage. He marries his daughters and obeys no laws but those he makes himself. And Dywen told Grenn he's got black blood in his veins. His mother was a wildling woman who lay with a ranger, so he's a bas . . ." Suddenly he realized what he was about to say.

"Who's this one now?" Craster said before Jon could go. "He has the look of a Stark."

"My steward and squire, Jon Snow."

"A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." He shooed Jon off with a wave. "Well, run and do your service, bastard, and see that axe is good and sharp now, I've no use for dull steel."

ASOS Samwell II

Sam looked around anxiously, but Craster had not returned to the hall. If he had, things might have grown ugly. The wildling hated bastards, though the rangers said he was baseborn himself, fathered on a wildling woman by some long-dead crow.

"Bloody bastard!" Sam heard one of the Garths curse. He never saw which one.

"Who calls me bastard?" Craster roared, sweeping platter and meat and wine cups from the table with his left hand while lifting the axe with his right.

"It's no more than all men know," Karl answered.

Craster moved quicker than Sam would have believed possible, vaulting across the table with axe in hand. A woman screamed, Garth Greenaway and Orphan Oss drew knives, Karl stumbled back and tripped over Ser Byam lying wounded on the floor. One instant Craster was coming after him spitting curses. The next he was spitting blood. Dirk had grabbed him by the hair, yanked his head back, and opened his throat ear to ear with one long slash. Then he gave him a rough shove, and the wildling fell forward, crashing face first across Ser Byam. Byam screamed in agony as Craster drowned in his own blood, the axe slipping from his fingers. Two of Craster's wives were wailing, a third cursed, a fourth flew at Sweet Donnel and tried to scratch his eyes out. He knocked her to the floor. The Lord Commander stood over Craster's corpse, dark with anger. "The gods will curse us," he cried. "There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man's hall. By all the laws of the hearth, we—"

 

 

The Casterlys lose Casterly Rock to Lann the Clever at the beginning of the Age of Heroes near the time Pact and disappear soon after. Craster’s mother is from Whitetree which practices a radical version of old god worship.
Craster repeats that he is godly, godly in a way that is no longer acceptable to most. The people at Whitetree seem to keep to much older ways. Their homes are stone, cavelike and smell like dung. Dolorous Edd specifically mentions Casterly Rock.

While I doubt the story of Craster’s father because of how he reacts to all bastards, I believe the story about his mother being from Whitetree. If Craster is really a Casterly, it would mean the Casterlys left or were forced from Casterly Rock for North-of-the-Wall. The Casterlys were given the gold by the old gods but lost Casterly Rock near the beginning of the Age of Heroes when the Pact came about and maybe this isn’t a coincidence if Craster is a Casterly and he practices extremely old ways.

Whitetree suggests a fanatical worship of the old gods. Craster keeps sheep pens which we later find out are given to the Others. Whitetree is also noted for its sheep pens. Corlos the son of Caster sought the lions for killing his sheep. Jon notes that Whitetree shows signs of human sacrifice which also aligns with Craster who is very insistent that he is a godly man.

Perhaps a reason for the Casterlys disappearance or being forced out is their disagreement or non-compliance with The Pact hence their fade from history during the Age of Heroes?

 

Spoiler

ACOK Jon III

"We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe."

ASOS Samwell II

"I fed you what I could, but you crows are always hungry. I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off. You think I need the likes of him, dying on my floor? You think I need all your mouths, little man?" The wildling spat. "Crows. When did a black bird ever bring good to a man's hall, I ask you? Never. Never."

...

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

Dirk speared a chunk of horsemeat. "Aye. So you admit you got a secret larder. How else to make it through a winter?"

"I'm a godly man . . ." Craster started.

"You're a niggardly man," said Karl, "and a liar."

 

ACOK Jon II—The homes sound unusually cave-like being made of stone, roofed with sod (underground so to speak), shuttered windows, low doors, dismal, smells like shit.

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old."

"And powerful." Jon could feel the power.

Thoren Smallwood dismounted beside the trunk, dark in his plate and mail. "Look at that face. Small wonder men feared them, when they first came to Westeros. I'd like to take an axe to the bloody thing myself."

Jon had to stoop to pass through the low door. Within he found a packed dirt floor. There were no furnishings, no sign that people had lived here but for some ashes beneath the smoke hole in the roof. "What a dismal place to live," he said.

"I was born in a house much like this," declared Dolorous Edd. "Those were my enchanted years. Later I fell on hard times." A nest of dry straw bedding filled one corner of the room. Edd looked at it with longing. "I'd give all the gold in Casterly Rock to sleep in a bed again."

"You call that a bed?"

"If it's softer than the ground and has a roof over it, I call it a bed." Dolorous Edd sniffed the air. "I smell dung."

 

The Casterlys may have been a little different.
Jaime dreams of something in the water under Casterly Rock and Jon’s experience at Crasters emphasized it being unusually dark and wet. Jaime’s led down there by 12 cowled men in spears which the TWOIAF links to the Casterlys as they were huntsmen. TWOIAF speculates that Lann the Clever may have married a Casterly daughter.

 

Spoiler

TWOIAF

 


Armed only with a spear, he slew the lion and his mate but spared her newborn cubs

 

ASOS Jaime VI

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. "Who are you?" he demanded of them. "What business do you have in Casterly Rock?"

They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

 

ACOK Jon III  Craster’s place is linked with wet and dark. The following is only a sampling.

A blowing rain lashed at Jon's face as he spurred his horse across the swollen stream. Beside him, Lord Commander Mormont gave the hood of his cloak a tug, muttering curses on the weather. His raven sat on his shoulder, feathers ruffled, as soaked and grumpy as the Old Bear himself. A gust of wind sent wet leaves flapping round them like a flock of dead birds. The haunted forest, Jon thought ruefully. The drowned forest, more like it.

When the wind blew, it drove the water right into their eyes...His wet wool clung to him sodden and itching...Up ahead a hunting horn sounded a quavering note, half drowned beneath the constant patter of the rain...Jon turned his horse back the way they'd come. It was pleasant to have the rain out of his face, if only for a little while. Everyone he passed seemed to be weeping...The drumming of the rain against the hoods of their cages had the ravens squawking and fluttering. "You put a fox in with them?" Jon called out ...Water ran off the brim of Sam's hat as he lifted his head. "Oh, hullo, Jon. No, they just hate the rain, the same as us." ...This wet has soaked my bones, and even my saddle sores complain of saddle sores"...soon enough he could hear only the steady wash of rain against leaf and tree and rock. It was midafternoon, yet the forest seemed as dark as dusk...The rain had turned half the compound yard to ankle-deep puddles and the rest to sucking mud. Another dismal night was in prospect. 

 

What’s up with the sheep?
Corlos son of Caster seeks the lion for killing his sheep. Whitetree, Craster and the Others all seem to value them. It recalls sayings about lions lying with sheep and also sacrificial lambs.

 

Spoiler

ACOK Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

TWOIAF

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock.

 

ACOK Jon III

"There was a sheepfold, but no sheep."

She put a hand over her belly. "Wife now." Edging away from the wolf, she knelt mournfully beside the broken hutch. "I was going to breed them rabbits. There's no sheep left."

"For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

"My lord," Jon said quietly as the wood closed in around them once more. "Craster has no sheep. Nor any sons."

 

 Food for thought...

1. AGOT Catelyn VI Jaime is arrogant, Tywin is full of avarice, Cersei is power-hungry, but Tyrion claims he is a lamb (after a bark of laughter, and I suspect that grin is wolfish).

The dwarf gave a bark of laughter. "Would that I were a pumpkin," he said. "Alas, my lord father would no doubt be most chagrined if his son of Lannister went to his fate like a load of turnips. If you ascend on foot, I fear I must do the same. We Lannisters do have a certain pride."

"Pride?" Catelyn snapped. His mocking tone and easy manner made her angry. "Arrogance, some might call it. Arrogance and avarice and lust for power."

"My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

2. ASOS Sansa VI (LF links himself to stone, sheep and shit)

"So silent, my lady?" said Petyr. "I was certain you would wish to give me your blessing. It is a rare thing for a boy born heir to stones and sheep pellets to wed the daughter of Hoster Tully and the widow of Jon Arryn."

3. Also, why would there be so many characters named Garth associated with Craster?

4. Note—In ASOS Samwell III, he and Gilly visit what he initially thinks is Whitetree. Later he decides it’s not Whitetree due to the tree’s face looking different and the size being smaller, but in AFFC he remembers it as Whitetree.  Whitetree and Sam’s village both have an empty sheepfold, a well and a weirwood in the center but the buildings are different though Sam doesn’t seem to notice this. Whitetree has 4 while Sam’s village has a “handful” and also a longhall. I’m rather confused so I didn’t reference the chapter though you may want to check it out.

5. There might be a point to all of those Tyrion pissing passages.

 

EDIT ADDITION - Tywin’s Funeral: Rain, shit, farts and more Garths

Craster’s is linked to profuse rain as is Tywin’s funeral. Also like Craster, Tywin here is associated with even more shit. We have a strong Garth presence in Craster’s chapters. Here we have the flatulent Garth the Gross and King Garth the Twelfth. An interesting contrast between Twyin and Craster: Craster’s mouth turns down, Tywin’s turns up in death where it had always been down-turned in life as Tywin hated laughter.

 

Tywin's association with shit extends even into Essos. I'm starting to think that the drainage problems there were very bad.

ACOK Daenerys V

"You require passage for a hundred Dothraki, all their horses, yourself and this knight, and three dragons?" said the captain of the great cog Ardent Friend before he walked away laughing. When she told a Lyseni on the Trumpeteer that she was Daenerys Stormborn, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, he gave her a deadface look and said, "Aye, and I'm Lord Tywin Lannister and shit gold every night."

 

 

Spoiler

AFFC Cersei II—all of the cold rain mentions sound like Jon’s experience at Craster’s. Further below, we know that the stink in the Great Sept is largely death, but the frequent shit mentions along with farts link the smell to shit for the reader.

A cold rain was falling, turning the walls and ramparts of the Red Keep dark as blood..."Uncle Jaime said I could ride my horse and throw pennies to the smallfolk," the boy objected. "Do you want to catch a chill?" ...With her fair skin, it made her look half a corpse herself. Cersei had risen an hour before dawn to bathe and fix her hair, and she did not intend to let the rain destroy her efforts...The gods are weeping for grandfather. Lady Jocelyn says the raindrops are their tears."...If the gods could weep, they would have wept for your brother. Rain is rain. Close the curtain before you let any more in. That mantle is sable, would you have it soaked?" ...Two Kingsguard rode before them, white knights on white horses with white cloaks hanging sodden from their shoulders..."I thought there would be more people. When Father died, all the people came out to watch us go by." "This rain has driven them inside...Trant and Kettleblack flanked them, water dripping from their wet cloaks to puddle on the floor...It was gloomy within the sept with the sky so grey outside. If the rain ever stopped, the sun would slant down through the hanging crystals to drape the corpse in rainbows…

AFFC Cersei II—Tywin’s death smell is linked to shit, diarrhea and farts

It was a relief when the singing finally ended. The smell coming off her father's corpse seemed to have grown stronger. Most of the mourners had the decency to pretend that nothing was amiss, but Cersei saw two of Lady Margaery's cousins wrinkling their little Tyrell noses. As she and Tommen were walking back down the aisle the queen thought she heard someone mutter "privy" and chortle, but when she turned her head to see who had spoken a sea of solemn faces gazed at her blankly. They would never have dared make japes about him when he was still alive. He would have turned their bowels to water with a look.

"It would seem that Lord Tywin did not share his plans with our regent, I can't imagine why. Still, there 'tis, no use hectoring Her Grace. She is quite right, you must write Lord Leyton before Garth boards a ship. You know the sea will sicken him and make his farting worse." Lady Olenna gave Cersei a toothless smile. "Your council chambers will smell sweeter with Lord Gyles, though I daresay that coughing would drive me to distraction. We all adore dear old uncle Garth, but the man is flatulent, that cannot be gainsaid. I do abhor foul smells." Her wrinkled face wrinkled up even more. "I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelled it too?"

"No," Cersei said coldly. "A scent, you say?"

"More like a stink."

AFFC Cersei II—The coin Varys leaves for Cersei to find is gold and has a picture of Garth the 12th. Note the mentions of dreariness, damp, mildew, and shit.

"Rugen was the man's name. An undergaoler who had charge of the black cells. The chief undergaoler describes him as portly, unshaven, gruff of speech. He held his appointment of the old king, Aerys, and came and went as he pleased. The black cells have not oft been occupied in recent years. The other turnkeys were afraid of him, it seems, but none knew much about him. He had no friends, no kin. Nor did he drink or frequent brothels. His sleeping cell was damp and dreary, and the straw he slept upon was mildewed. His chamber pot was overflowing."

"Aye, Your Grace," said Qyburn, "but did you know that under that stinking chamber pot was a loose stone, which opened on a small hollow? The sort of place where a man might hide valuables that he did not wish to be discovered?"

Gold, yes, but the moment Cersei took it she could tell that it was wrong. Too small, she thought, too thin. The coin was old and worn. On one side was a king's face in profile, on the other side the imprint of a hand. "This is no dragon," she said.

"No," Qyburn agreed. "It dates from before the Conquest, Your Grace. The king is Garth the Twelfth, and the hand is the sigil of House Gardener."

AFFC Cersei IIWe get a description of Gregor which reminds many of the wights. It accompanies a mention of sheep and Gregor is made into a sacrifice. It’s believed among many in the fandom (myself included until I began this research) that Oberyn used the same poison on Twyin and Gregor both.

"He is dying of the venom, but slowly, and in exquisite agony. My efforts to ease his pain have proved as fruitless as Pycelle's. Ser Gregor is overly accustomed to the poppy, I fear. His squire tells me that he is plagued by blinding headaches and oft quaffs the milk of the poppy as lesser men quaff ale. Be that as it may, his veins have turned black from head to heel, his water is clouded with pus, and the venom has eaten a hole in his side as large as my fist. It is a wonder that the man is still alive, if truth be told."

"If that is Your Grace's wish," Qyburn said, "but this poison . . . it would be useful to know more about it, would it not? Send a knight to slay a knight and an archer to kill an archer, the smallfolk often say. To combat the black arts . . ." He did not finish the thought, but only smiled at her.

He is not Pycelle, that much is plain. The queen weighed him, wondering. "Why did the Citadel take your chain?"

"The archmaesters are all craven at heart. The grey sheep, Marwyn calls them. I was as skilled a healer as Ebrose, but aspired to surpass him. For hundreds of years the men of the Citadel have opened the bodies of the dead, to study the nature of life. I wished to understand the nature of death, so I opened the bodies of the living. For that crime the grey sheep shamed me and forced me into exile . . . but I understand the nature of life and death better than any man in Oldtown."

An interesting contrast is Tywin’s upturned mouth and Craster’s drooping one.

ACOK Jon III

A flat nose and a drooping mouth gave him a cruel look, and one of his ears was missing.

 

ASOS Tyrion III

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said...

 

AFFC Cersei II

Try as she might, she could not seem to bring Lord Tywin's face to mind without seeing that silly little half smile and remembering the foul smell coming off his corpse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of posters have (validly) asked about the plot relevance if Craster is a Casterly. It ties into the history of the Casterlys and Lannisters and significant hints that their history is much more interesting (grey?) than we think.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I tip my hat to the effort you put forth. 

Indeed. I can't see any reason for it to be true - and if it is it's just a very well hidden easter egg - but damn this is an impressive effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Foot_Of_The_King & @velo-knight  Thanks!

9 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Indeed. I can't see any reason for it to be true - and if it is it's just a very well hidden easter egg - but damn this is an impressive effort.

This was actually a very unexpected tangent on a larger post regarding the Lannisters which I hope to have ready in a few days. The relevance will be apparent there - if I'm right. :P

If I'm not right, it should be a fun read regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lollygag said:

@Foot_Of_The_King & @velo-knight  Thanks!

This was actually a very unexpected tangent on a larger post regarding the Lannisters which I hope to have ready in a few days. The relevance will be apparent there - if I'm right. :P

If I'm not right, it should be a fun read regardless.

At first I thought it was only a parody of the recent "Caster is a Stark" thread. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Foot_Of_The_King said:

At first I thought it was only a parody of the recent "Caster is a Stark" thread. 

Oh just wait until you see the Lannister thread!

I'm quite sure that the connections I've made are significant but my conclusion is something I'm not sure about. Actually hoping others might be able to help with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you are looking for similarities in Jon and Jaime chapters, perhaps these may help for some more connections, though they aren't related to Craster.

 

Quote

The others were good men too. Good men in a fight, at least, and loyal to their brothers. Jon could not speak for what they might have been before they reached the Wall, but he did not doubt that most had pasts as black as their cloaks. Up here, they were the sort of men he wanted at his back. Their hoods were raised against the biting wind, and some had scarves wrapped about their faces, hiding their features. Jon knew them, though. Every name was graven on his heart. They were his men, his brothers.

 I have seven-and-ten. Four of his were green boys, though, and none were giants.

- ADWD Jon VII

 

Quote

Inside his cage, Mance Rayder clawed at the noose about his neck with bound hands and screamed incoherently of treachery and witchery, denying his kingship, denying his people, denying his name, denying all that he had ever been. He shrieked for mercy and cursed the red woman and began to laugh hysterically.

Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest problem with Craster being a Casterly is that the Casterlys have been extinct for thousands of years, and your solution to that is that maybe the entire family—unlike any other family we've heard of—was forced north of the Wall (and continued to call themselves Casterlys even while living as wildlings), and maybe one of the few things we know about Craster (that his father was a Watchman) is actually not true.

Also, your main evidence seems to be that Craster sounds kind of like Casterly. But they're real life names that have nothing to do with each other. One means "crow fort" from Old English "cra(i)" plus Latin "(ce)ster", while the other means "from Chastelai, Normandy" (which ultimately means "castle owner") from Norman French.* Of course there are less prominent Casterly families with different etymologies, but none of them are any closer.** 

It's pretty obvious why GRRM named the character who lives in a fort right outside the Night Watch headquarters "Craster", and why GRRM named the family taking the Lancaster role in his War of the Roses expy "LANnister" of "CASTERly Rock".

---

* Obviously the French word for "castle" and the Latin work for "fort" aren't completely unrelated, but they're very, very distant relatives.

** The Norman French words for "castellan" and "castle worker", Irish for "curly-haired" (same name as the more familiar Cassidy), and the English word "caster" (as in someone who casts, e.g., iron, and whose descendant wants a name that sounds like a fancy French nobleman instead of a grubby English workman).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The first Casterly was named Caster and they were blessed by the old gods with gold for sparing lion cubs. They disappeared when there were no more sons during the Age of Heroes. Craster wears a gold bracelet and is connected to lords and castles. Craster’s keep recalls Casterly Rock.

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock. ...

Terrific insight! Well done.

I really like this - a lot of puzzle pieces could fall into place with this. The shit evidence is particularly persuasive. I could never figure out why GRRM made such a point out of Tywin and shit and stench, as well as Craster living on a pile of shit. This would explain it.

I wonder whether there is something of a parallel in the story between the Lannisters somehow driving the Casters out of Casterly Rock and the Peakes managing to unseat the Manderlys? The Manderlys also go north, although not as far north as the Caster / Craster family, if your theory is correct.

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

Also, your main evidence seems to be that Craster sounds kind of like Casterly. But they're real life names that have nothing to do with each other. One means "crow fort" from Old English "cra(i)" plus Latin "(ce)ster", while the other means "from Chastelai, Normandy" (which ultimately means "castle owner") from Norman French.* Of course there are less prominent Casterly families with different etymologies, but none of them are any closer.**

I don't think Lollygag's main evidence is the similarity of the two names - he (she?) provides quite a bit of context from the books, starting with the lion and sheep metaphors.

Your good etymological research can be true at the same time a Craster / Caster parallel is true. I think GRRM works hard to add layers to his word associations. For instance, a lot of people stop at the clever connection between Alaric of Eysen at Joffrey's wedding feast and GRRM's friendship with an author named Phyllis Eisenstein. That link is undoubtedly true, but there is a deeper purpose for Alaric of Eysen to appear at exactly that point in the narrative, and I believe it has to do with the "egg / Ei / iron / Eisen / Ice / eyes" wordplay.

Similarly, GRRM is said to be a NY Giants football fan, and people assume the juxtaposition of the giant known as "Wun Wun" with Ser Patrek of King's Mountain - who wears silver stars - is a wink and a nod toward the NY Giants defeating the Dallas Cowboys. This could be true, but there is deeper meaning for the books in understanding the references to stars, King's Mountain and the symbolism of giants. Probably also in the number 11, although I haven't yet figured out the number code (if there even is a single code for numbers).

Those are just two examples of layered meanings in ASOIAF names and characters. As I say, your analysis is good and very likely relevant but I think GRRM could also have chosen the Craster and Caster (and Stark?) surnames for their similarities. He had to have been mapping out his plot and details for many years before he started writing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can add - for Whitetree - this quote from Jon II ACOK :

Quote

 

 Dolorous Edd sniffed the air. "I smell dung."
The smell was very faint. "Old dung," said Jon. The house felt as though it had been empty for some time.

 

And also these, from Sansa VI ASOS, concerning Baelish's keep :

 

Quote

Lord Petyr made a face. "Come, let's see if my hall is as dreary as I recall." He led them up the strand over rocks slick with rotting seaweed. A handful of sheep were wandering about the base of the flint tower, grazing on the thin grass that grew between the sheepfold and thatched stable. Sansa had to step carefully; there were pellets everywhere.

Quote

 

"If we knew you was coming we would have laid down fresh rushes, m'lord," said the crone. "There's a dung fire burning."
"Nothing says home like the smell of burning dung." Petyr turned to Sansa. "Grisel was my wet nurse, but she keeps my castle now. Umfred's my steward, and Bryen—didn't I name you captain of the guard the last time I was here?"

 

Sansa ran away from Tywin's power to fall in the hands of another "patriarch" aka LF

For me, the paralellisms are more about the abusive power of a patriarcal figure, which conducts to devorate own children (like did Chronos, Zeus's father, ordinary associated to a ram), than to establish a common bloodline between Casterly and Craster. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Corvo the Crow Thank you very much for this. The hoods, spears and sacrifice are especially interesting.

12 hours ago, falcotron said:

The biggest problem with Craster being a Casterly is that the Casterlys have been extinct for thousands of years, and your solution to that is that maybe the entire family—unlike any other family we've heard of—was forced north of the Wall (and continued to call themselves Casterlys even while living as wildlings), and maybe one of the few things we know about Craster (that his father was a Watchman) is actually not true.

I was maybe unclear on this account. I don’t doubt Craster’s father because of the Casterly theory, I doubt it because he hates being called a bastard (makes sense if he is a bastard) but he also hates other bastards (does not make sense if he is a bastard). That along with his living as a southern lord are hints for me that there’s more to Craster’s origins than just some rando wildling. Anyhow, the woo-woo stuff seems to come from his mother at Whitetree. Just as the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, etc are told of Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, and Artys Arryn, Craster likewise may have heard that he’s descended from the Casterlys and decided to act the part. If true, I highly doubt they continued to call themselves Casterlys.

As for why they would be north of the Wall – I already explained this. It’s in Craster’s religious practices which are radical for both sides of the Wall. Note the Casterlys disappeared during the Age of Heroes. The wiki implies it was near the beginning which might mean the Pact has something to do with it.

If you like to keep more strictly to the stories told by the Westerosi (in this case through Ygritte) and in TWOIAF, then I get that. But I'm not so inclined personally. Otherwise, what @Seams said.

12 hours ago, falcotron said:

** The Norman French words for "castellan" and "castle worker", Irish for "curly-haired" (same name as the more familiar Cassidy), and the English word "caster" (as in someone who casts, e.g., iron, and whose descendant wants a name that sounds like a fancy French nobleman instead of a grubby English workman).

Love the connection between Caster and casting metal.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Seams said:

I really like this - a lot of puzzle pieces could fall into place with this. The shit evidence is particularly persuasive. I could never figure out why GRRM made such a point out of Tywin and shit and stench, as well as Craster living on a pile of shit. This would explain it.

I wonder whether there is something of a parallel in the story between the Lannisters somehow driving the Casters out of Casterly Rock and the Peakes managing to unseat the Manderlys? The Manderlys also go north, although not as far north as the Caster / Craster family, if your theory is correct.

I'm glad you mentioned Tywin as it led me re-read his funeral and whoa Nelly! I did an edit of the OP with a Tywin's funeral section at the end.

I think you're right about the Manderlys. I recalled the entrails hanging from the trees from Davos' time in White Harbor. The Manderlys keep to the new gods, yet they mounted Davos' head as a (fake) sacrifice to Cersei who requested it and then the Frey pies really give one pause. And Davos' jailer was named... Garth. I need to look at in more detail (later) but definitely something there to be found.

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I think you can add - for Whitetree - this quote from Jon II ACOK :

And also these, from Sansa VI ASOS, concerning Baelish's keep :

 

Sansa ran away from Tywin's power to fall in the hands of another "patriarch" aka LF

For me, the paralellisms are more about the abusive power of a patriarcal figure, which conducts to devorate own children (like did Chronos, Zeus's father, ordinary associated to a ram), than to establish a common bloodline between Casterly and Craster. 

 

At Craster's, it's joked that the whole hill is dung. Jon smelled dung but didn't find anything so it was either burned in the fireplace or smashed into the packed dirt floor. LF has dung all over the place because his sheep aren't fenced. The joke about the Craster's hill being dung and LF's hill of sheep dung makes me wonder whether dung was packed into the floor of the Whitetree house.

Big question is why? Does it protect them from something, someone?

Craster has always reminded me of Saturn/Cronos, especially this haunting painting by Goya.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/becoming-modern/romanticism/romanticism-in-spain/v/goya-saturn-devouring-one-of-his-sons

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Just as the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, etc are told of Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, and Artys Arryn, Craster likewise may have heard that he’s descended from the Casterlys and decided to act the part. If true, I highly doubt they continued to call themselves Casterlys.

The difference is that the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns etc. are established Houses, who follow aristocratic traditions and place great stock in their name and in their historical claims, while the Free Folk don't give a damn about heredity and don't even use last names. The idea that a family would preserve their legendary ancestry for thousands of years while living in a culture that doesn't place any meaning on that ancestry is very different from the idea that the Lannisters would preserve their source of legitimacy for thousands of years while living in a culture where they've continuously relied on that source of legitimacy.

32 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Love the connection between Caster and casting metal.

The connection to casting molds—as for gold rings—is probably more likely to be relevant.

Sure, someone had to be importing and using all that iron than the Iron Islands and half their ancient houses are named for, and using it for cast iron rather than forged or wrought iron, given that the First Men were a bronze age society, but it doesn't seem likely that a royal family famed for owning a gold mine would be named for iron casting, even if they were the ones doing it. Being named for being the source of most of the gold jewelry in Westeros, on the other hand, seems more plausible.

Still, I think it's the "noble castellan" meanings, and the "-caster" part of Lancaster, that GRRM had in mind. Two layers really is enough for a minor background family that doesn't have any outstanding mysteries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I'm glad you mentioned Tywin as it led me re-read his funeral and whoa Nelly! I did an edit of the OP with a Tywin's funeral section at the end.

There's this, too:

The stink of the Lannister host reached Arya well before she could make out the devices on the banners that sprouted along the lakeshore, atop the pavilions of the westermen. From the smell, Arya could tell that Lord Tywin had been here some time. The latrines that ringed the encampment were overflowing and swarming with flies, and she saw faint greenish fuzz on many of the sharpened stakes that protected the perimeters. (ACoK, Arya VI)

Could be that Tywin's camp outside the massive walls of Harrenhal is supposed to compare to Craster's Keep outside of the Wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The difference is that the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns etc. are established Houses, who follow aristocratic traditions and place great stock in their name and in their historical claims, while the Free Folk don't give a damn about heredity and don't even use last names. The idea that a family would preserve their legendary ancestry for thousands of years while living in a culture that doesn't place any meaning on that ancestry is very different from the idea that the Lannisters would preserve their source of legitimacy for thousands of years while living in a culture where they've continuously relied on that source of legitimacy.

I'm not going to argue this point too strongly here. I would agree with you if Craster was just a normal guy. What really sealed it for me that Craster is a Casterly will be my thread about the Lannisters which I should post in a few days or so depending on how many more tangents come up.

48 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Still, I think it's the "noble castellan" meanings, and the "-caster" part of Lancaster, that GRRM had in mind. Two layers really is enough for a minor background family that doesn't have any outstanding mysteries.

However, I will argue strongly against the Casterlys/Lannisters being "a minor background family that doesn't have any mysteries".

TWOIAF questions what happened to them and suggests that they're part of the origin of the Lannisters which has 3 POVs which means they're not a minor background family. Did you read the OP? I already quoted the relationship between the Casterlys and the Lannisters from the WOIAF.

The one assumption that they're left with is that Lord Casterly had no true-born sons and . Not proof of anything to be sure, but this is true of Craster, too. I wonder if the Casterlys were sacrificing their own blood before the Pact and maybe wanted to continue it.

And it depends on how you interpret Jaime's dream which lines up in part with TWOIAF, but they do have outstanding mysteries which I've already laid out in the OP though they might not be as big and flashy as the mysteries of the Starks, Targs, Boltons, etc. See the above section on the Casterlys maybe being a little different. Note that Jaime's dream hints at sacrifice when he says something wants him, yet the rest of his family says it's only Jaime's place. The Casterlys killed the head lion, but spared the others and another lion in Jaime is being poked by Casterly hunting spears here. And Craster sacrifices family as well.

I feel like you're commenting in a thread when you haven't carefully read the OP as you keep getting pointed back to it. And two layers may be enough for you, but you didn't write the books and neither did I. The author is really the only one in a position to issue quotas on interpretation. If something doesn't sit well with you, that's ok. Just say so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

However, I will argue strongly against the Casterlys/Lannisters being "a minor background family that doesn't have any mysteries".

You're assuming that the Casterlys are not background in the Lannister story, but are instead either a story of their own, with their own mysteries, or are the key to the Lannisters. Maybe you're right, but I don't see anything to warrant that assumption. Beyond the handful of core families and the dozens of still important but not major side families, there are hundreds of other families mentioned in the stories, and they do not all have important secrets and mysteries.

But at any rate, I know you've already said you have a theory that brings in the Lannisters (who obviously are a major family with important stuff going on) that you're not ready to post yet. So presumably there is some narrative function here that you've found, as opposed to the usual random tinfoil people like to post here where the only answer to "What would be the point?" is "It would make me smart for being the guy to randomly guess it", so I'll wait to see what you've found instead of trying to second-guess it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm glad you mentioned Tywin as it led me re-read his funeral and whoa Nelly! I did an edit of the OP with a Tywin's funeral section at the end.

I think you're right about the Manderlys. I recalled the entrails hanging from the trees from Davos' time in White Harbor. The Manderlys keep to the new gods, yet they mounted Davos' head as a (fake) sacrifice to Cersei who requested it and then the Frey pies really give one pause. And Davos' jailer was named... Garth. I need to look at in more detail (later) but definitely something there to be found.

 

On blood sacrifices and White Harbor

Quote

The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones that would one day become the gods of the First Men—the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. It was the children who carved the weirwoods with faces, perhaps to give eyes to their gods so that they might watch their worshippers at their devotions. Others, with little evidence, claim that the greenseers—the wise men of the children—were able to see through the eyes of the carved weirwoods. The supposed proof is the fact that the First Men themselves believed this; it was their fear of the weirwoods spying upon them that drove them to cut down many of the carved trees and weirwood groves, to deny the children such an advantage. Yet the First Men were less learned than we are now, and credited things that their descendants today do not; consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from Its Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

 

Not exactly relevant to this topic but a lot of interesting things happen 400-500 years ago; Targaryen's self exile, sudden influx of Valyrian Steel blades into Westeros, a lord commander trying to make Night's Watch passing on from father to son, the doom. I'm not suggesting these are all relevant but some possibly are; how come no Westerosi lord is known to have any VS until around the arrival of Targaryens? Why stop blood sacrifices so suddenly around the time of Doom? Magic is tied to dragons, it is suggested, but even with no Dragons there are Wargs and Greenseers beyond the Wall. Perhaps with doom magic in general became so weak people stopped the sacrifices because it was obviously not giving any benefits?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 0:24 PM, Seams said:

I could never figure out why GRRM made such a point out of Tywin and shit and stench

I always saw the stink of Tywin's corpse to be a call back to the smell of Corruption for Father Zossima in The Brothers Karamozov.

 

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, Lollygag said:

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock.

 

I have to say @Lollygag this is a spectacular observation and is as well thought out, reasoned, argued and presented as any I've ever seen. This gets a total A+ and I am inclined to believe your evidence here as I see no holes in it. The one question I have is the one I put to all theories...which is "what is the point"


Let us say we knew proof positive that Craster was a Casterly...like if grrm actually just came out and said it.....what do we have. I think until I theory can show how it influences the story. Would it make a difference if Craster was from any of the other houses (with the possible exception of Stark because of telepathic powers or Targaryen because of bloodline to the throne)? I think it is in there and just needs to be reasoned out. I will ponder this question. In the meantime thank you for such an excellent and insightful contribution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

how come no Westerosi lord is known to have any VS until around the arrival of Targaryens

Lady Forelorn, sword of Corbray house, was wielded by first men King Robar Royce II -- the Bronze King long before the Targaryen's left Valyria. Red Rain the source of house Drumm, was stolen from a night by Hilmar the Cunning long before Targs too. I see your general point and agree that it seems something fishy happened 500 years ago (or, possibly, 500 years ago is a colloquialism used to mean a long time ago) but surely there were VS swords in westeros long before the conquest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0