Ygrain

LF's influence over Joffrey

39 posts in this topic

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden influence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/2997

 

So, I wondered what this hidden influence over Joffrey might have been and how he gained it, and it occured to me:

Tyrion wanted to ingratiate himself to Joffrey by arranging him a visit at Chataya's and even discussed it with Varys, but never actually got round to it. What if LF had the same idea? He has a brothel, he knows his way out of Red Keep... Joffrey's sexual harrassment of Sansa certainly increased in ASOS - not that it couldn't be explained by his overblown ego, but if he actually had gained some sexual experience, it might show this quote in a bit different light:

“My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed... and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”

Also:

Spoiler

IIRC, show LF did supply Joffrey with prostitutes, so the idea may not be actually that of the show creators but from GRRM himself.

Sorry if this has been noted before, I don't recall reading it around here.

ETA: 

To clarify: I don't think LF had anything to do with Joff's idea of mercy towards Bran, he only took advantage of the situation later to frame Tyrion as another means to get the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats. 

Also, the sexual initiation that I am contemplating wouldn't have taken place before ACOK. I am connecting it to the moment when Tyrion realizes what Joff's order to strip Sansa means, and LF either had the same idea, or stole Tyrion's.

 

Edited by Ygrain

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Well we don't know if Joffrey sent an assassin after Bran. Another suspect is Mance Rayder. With killing Bran he would definitely cause conflict between Lannisters/Baratheons and Starks, thus making Starks eventually march South leaving North open for an invasion. But yes Littlefinger was in Kingslanding there was no way he could predict Bran injuring and being unconscious. Joffrey acted alone as he believed Bran should die and spared shameful life. LF influenced Joffrey to kill Ned though. Winning over Joffrey is easier with giving him things to kill rather than sex.

Show spoiler:

Spoiler

He doesn't fucks the whore though he kills her.

 

Edited by Tygett Greenshield

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2 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Well we don't know if Joffrey sent an assassin after Bran. Another suspect is Mance Rayder. With killing Bran he would definitely cause conflict between Lannisters/Baratheons and Starks, thus making Starks eventually march South leaving North open for an invasion. But yes Littlefinger was in Kingslanding there was no way he could predict Bran injuring and being unconscious. Joffrey acted alone as he believed Bran should die and spared shameful life. LF influenced Joffrey to kill Ned though. Winning over Joffrey is easier with giving him things to kill rather than sex.

Show spoiler:

  Hide contents

He doesn't fucks the whore though he kills her.

 

We don't? I think it fits well with Joff's psychopathy and we did receive some explanation for it, but if it was someone else, I don't believe it was Mance, he is better than that. And I don't think LF was involved in any way, he just grabbed the opportunity to further fan the conflict when he recognized the dagger.

Show spoiler:

Spoiler

Yep but merely having sex with a prostitute would be too tame for the show :D

 

Now I've got a very, very terrifying idea: what if the girl provided to Joffrey was poor Jeyne Poole? What if with Ramsay, it wasn't the first time that she was brutalized as a substitute for Arya? Since Joffrey couldn't get his hands on the real Arya, wouldn't another Northern girl, who looks a lot like Arya, be perfect for venting his grudge for the Trident incident? We know that Jeyne was flogged - was it to beat her into submission, or as a punishment, or as a satisfaction of someone's sadistic purges?

I hope that LF doesn't get his head cut off cleanly but sawed off, as slowly as possible.

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4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden influence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/2997

 

So, I wondered what this hidden influence over Joffrey might have been and how he gained it, and it occured to me:

Tyrion wanted to ingratiate himself to Joffrey by arranging him a visit at Chataya's and even discussed it with Varys, but never actually got round to it. What if LF had the same idea? He has a brothel, he knows his way out of Red Keep... Joffrey's sexual harrassment of Sansa certainly increased in ASOS - not that it couldn't be explained by his overblown ego, but if he actually had gained some sexual experience, it might show this quote in a bit different light:

“My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed... and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”

Also:

  Reveal hidden contents

IIRC, show LF did supply Joffrey with prostitutes, so the idea may not be actually that of the show creators but from GRRM himself.

Sorry if this has been noted before, I don't recall reading it around here.

LF could very well have influenced Joff to kill Bran, all without knowing about Bran's fall or anything else that has happened at Winterfell since the king arrived. Consider this:

Before the royal party departs King's Landing, LF pulls Joff aside and tells him how bad it would be for his father, his mother, House Lannister and maybe the entire realm if Ned were to become hand, something that Joffrey might overhear or may have already overheard from Cersei and Jaime. LF would then lament -- never directly telling Joffrey anything, mind you -- that the only thing that could prevent that would be a Stark family tragedy, such as the sudden death of one of the children, and oh, by the way, that sure is a very fine VS dagger in your father's collection...

So when Bran falls, it would appear to Joffrey that the problem has resolved itself. But to his surprise, Bran actually lives and Ned agrees to become hand. So that's when Joffrey decides to send the catspaw. And when that fails, we have the extraordinary event on the Trident where the crown prince and his bride-to-be are allowed to ride off alone through unfamiliar countryside to do who knows what. If I had to guess, I'll bet Cersei set that up so that Joff could get her drunk and besmirch her honor, although Joff had far more sinister plans...

Did LF use his brothels to influence Joffrey? I tend to doubt it. He would get in serious trouble from the king and queen if that came to light, and it would be almost impossible to keep that secret from servants, or the Hound. After Joff became king, however, maybe that would provide some cover, but it seems to me that LF does not need to use sex to influence Joff -- he has no problem appealing to his vanity, his arrogance and his cruelty.

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Anything is possible.   But I don't get the vibe that Joff is interested in anything other than having his own way.   I agree with @John Suburbs that LF's influence over Joffrey may have come prior to the visit to Winterfell in an overheard conversation not intended for his ears.   Though I tend to believe the attempt on Bran's life did grow organically from the statements about Bran's death being a mercy.   As a prince he may have thought it noble or some damned twisted thing.   

I know it's a common belief that Joffrey was behind the catspaw attempt.   I still tend to think Cersei was behind it.  Joffrey wouldn't have been able to contain himself later when taunting Sansa.   He would have blurted it out like everything else he planned to do.   The dagger?   Could be Cersei didn't know this VS dagger from anything else.   Could be the dagger wasn't really Little Finger's but 1 of many in Robert's armory.   Could be LF gave the dagger to Cersei to get someone to kill Ned with.    There are as many possibilities for someone else to have plotted to kill Bran as there are for Joffrey to have done it.   

This dagger actually belonging to Little Finger never set well with me.   The guy is loaded, but it's quiet wealth acquired from ripping off the crown.   Why would he own this thing outright for the world to see?    I suspect his claiming the dagger was as much as lie as everything else that oozes from his mouth.   

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We don't? I think it fits well with Joff's psychopathy and we did receive some explanation for it, but if it was someone else, I don't believe it was Mance, he is better than that. And I don't think LF was involved in any way, he just grabbed the opportunity to further fan the conflict when he recognized the dagger

I agree with this. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that LF influenced Joffrey but I don't think he probably did. Like you said he probably just welcomed the opportunity to cause some ruckus when he recognized the dagger, hell maybe he didn't even recognize it & just pretended he did. 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Now I've got a very, very terrifying idea: what if the girl provided to Joffrey was poor Jeyne Poole? What if with Ramsay, it wasn't the first time that she was brutalized as a substitute for Arya? Since Joffrey couldn't get his hands on the real Arya, wouldn't another Northern girl, who looks a lot like Arya, be perfect for venting his grudge for the Trident incident? We know that Jeyne was flogged - was it to beat her into submission, or as a punishment, or as a satisfaction of someone's sadistic purges?

I hope that LF doesn't get his head cut off cleanly but sawed off, as slowly as possible

Poor Jeyne :crying: this would be terrible. I don't think this happened though - at least I hope it didn't. Not that it isn't possible though. 

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Before the royal party departs King's Landing, LF pulls Joff aside and tells him how bad it would be for his father, his mother, House Lannister and maybe the entire realm if Ned were to become hand, something that Joffrey might overhear or may have already overheard from Cersei and Jaime. LF would then lament -- never directly telling Joffrey anything, mind you -- that the only thing that could prevent that would be a Stark family tragedy, such as the sudden death of one of the children, and oh, by the way, that sure is a very fine VS dagger in your father's collection...

So when Bran falls, it would appear to Joffrey that the problem has resolved itself. But to his surprise, Bran actually lives and Ned agrees to become hand. So that's when Joffrey decides to send the catspaw. And when that fails, we have the extraordinary event on the Trident where the crown prince and his bride-to-be are allowed to ride off alone through unfamiliar countryside to do who knows what. If I had to guess, I'll bet Cersei set that up so that Joff could get her drunk and besmirch her honor, although Joff had far more sinister plans...

This actually fits nicely. If LF did influence Joff I would imagine it was something like this. Definitely falls in line with how LF works. 

Do we know the dagger came from Robert's collection? I'm currently doing a reread but am not to this part yet & can't remember exactly what happened. I do remember thinking that LF lost the dagger betting on Jaime, just not to Tyrion. Of course I could be entirely wrong. 

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I know it's a common belief that Joffrey was behind the catspaw attempt.   I still tend to think Cersei was behind it.  Joffrey wouldn't have been able to contain himself later when taunting Sansa.   He would have blurted it out like everything else he planned to do.   The dagger?   Could be Cersei didn't know this VS dagger from anything else.   Could be the dagger wasn't really Little Finger's but 1 of many in Robert's armory.   Could be LF gave the dagger to Cersei to get someone to kill Ned with.    There are as many possibilities for someone else to have plotted to kill Bran as there are for Joffrey to have done it.   

I guess I'm not 100% positive it was Joffrey but I'm fairly certain it wasn't Cersei. Not that she is above doing something like that but for starters I think she would have been smarter about it. Also IIRC she thought it was Joffrey also right? When Tyrion tells her it was Joff she believes him & acts as if she didn't know about it. Not that she wouldn't lie to Tyrion but he is usually pretty good at reading her. 

I'm with you on Joff not bragging about it though. The only thing that would possibly stop him from bragging to Sansa about it IMO is the fact that his plans were foiled. Had the catspaw succeeded in killing Bran & Joff was behind it, it would definitely have come out of that evil mouth of his at some point. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

LF could very well have influenced Joff to kill Bran, all without knowing about Bran's fall or anything else that has happened at Winterfell since the king arrived. Consider this:

Before the royal party departs King's Landing, LF pulls Joff aside and tells him how bad it would be for his father, his mother, House Lannister and maybe the entire realm if Ned were to become hand, something that Joffrey might overhear or may have already overheard from Cersei and Jaime. LF would then lament -- never directly telling Joffrey anything, mind you -- that the only thing that could prevent that would be a Stark family tragedy, such as the sudden death of one of the children, and oh, by the way, that sure is a very fine VS dagger in your father's collection...

Not impossible, but I think that if Joffrey was "indoctrinated" to do something like that, there would have been some subtle hint - like Joffrey watching the Stark kids with some very weird gleam in his eye. Yet, all we get to see is that arrogant little shite

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Did LF use his brothels to influence Joffrey? I tend to doubt it. He would get in serious trouble from the king and queen if that came to light, and it would be almost impossible to keep that secret from servants, or the Hound. After Joff became king, however, maybe that would provide some cover, but it seems to me that LF does not need to use sex to influence Joff -- he has no problem appealing to his vanity, his arrogance and his cruelty.

It would certainly only come after Robert's death, perhaps after that very public stripping of Sansa showing Joffrey's developing sexual interest. However, getting someone out of the Red Keep under everyone's noses is not so problematic, we have seen LF do just that. - Or, being a brothel owner, he may have brought some girls in. As for the Hound... he needs to eat, sleep and defecate, so it was humanly impossible for him to be alongside Joffrey 24/7, and if he was... perhaps he was offered, you know, services for free?

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 But I don't get the vibe that Joff is interested in anything other than having his own way. 

I disagree. Those sexual threats towards Sansa in ASOS are pretty creepy, and seem to be meant seriously. The kid was becoming interested in sex.

 

52 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Poor Jeyne :crying: this would be terrible. I don't think this happened though - at least I hope it didn't. 

You and me both  :-(

52 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This actually fits nicely. If LF did influence Joff I would imagine it was something like this. Definitely falls in line with how LF works. 

Oh, I do agree that LF's usual way is to whisper into Joff's ear. I just wondered if there may be even more to it.

 

BTW, the thought of introducing Joff to some girl comes up twice - first in ACOK when Tyrion discusses it with Varys, and then is ASOS when he offers Tywin to take Joff on a trip round KL's brothels. Well.. when GRRM repeats something, I tend to think it's somehow important, but perhaps I'm just seeing grumkins.

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Mance is considers himself Free Folk. Free Folk custom is to kill crippled children.

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And Starks are not Free Folk. Why would he bother with what happens to their child, why would he hire someone and not do the deed himself, and where did he get the money and the Valyrian dagger?

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12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden influence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

For someone who claims the Order of the Green Hand has terribly researched videos, I think its funny that you are using this George Quote that was the inspiration for their Littlefinger's Secret and Hidden Influence video.  Especially since you're using it to talk about whether or not Littlefinger played a role in Joffrey's decision to hire the catspaw

Edited by King Maegor

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12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed... and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”

“Cersei has not seen fit to tell him yet,” Lord Tywin said. “She fears he might insist on marching against Renly himself.” “With what army?” Tyrion asked. “You don’t plan to give him this one, I hope?” “He talks of leading the City Watch,” Lord Tywin said."

Bless my steel with a kiss." He extended the blade down to her. "Go on, kiss it."

He had never sounded more like a stupid little boy. Sansa touched her lips to the metal, thinking that she would kiss any number of swords sooner than Joffrey. The gesture seemed to please him, though. He sheathed the blade with a flourish. "You'll kiss it again when I return, and taste my uncle's blood."

The kid talks a lot of shit 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And when that fails, we have the extraordinary event on the Trident where the crown prince and his bride-to-be are allowed to ride off alone through unfamiliar countryside to do who knows what. If I had to guess, I'll bet Cersei set that up so that Joff could get her drunk and besmirch her honor, although Joff had far more sinister plans...

If he was to beamirch her honour they would probably get married almost as soon as the got to KL

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45 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

If he was to beamirch her honour they would probably get married almost as soon as the got to KL

I think the idea behind it, if Cersei would have put him up to it (I'm not saying she did) Would have been for afterwards Joffrey to make a claim that she is not a maid & then Cersei to have her "examined" giving Joffrey an out from marrying her. 

Sansa had not even flowered yet though & Joffrey never makes a move to "besmirch" her. The argument could be made that he was trying to get her drunk though & had they not happened upon Arya & Micah maybe he would have. 

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4 hours ago, King Maegor said:

For someone who claims the Order of the Green Hand has terribly researched videos, I think its funny that you are using this George Quote that was the inspiration for their Littlefinger's Secret and Hidden Influence video.  Especially since you're using it to talk about whether or not Littlefinger played a role in Joffrey's decision to hire the catspaw

You need to work on your reading comprehension. The talk about the catspaw ensued here only because the original quote referred to it, I suggested that Joffrey's sexual initiation, if it happened, would have taken place only after Robert's death and probably only after Sansa's stripping, which I hope you know took place long after the catspaw incident. Perhaps LF stole Tyrion's idea.

4 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

The kid talks a lot of shit 

He certainly does. But you've left out the quote during Sansa's wedding, during the dance when he tells her that he can have her brought to his bedroom any time and paws her breast, and before the bedding when he starts shouting for Sansa to be stripped (again).

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8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You need to work on your reading comprehension. The talk about the catspaw ensued here only because the original quote referred to it, I suggested that Joffrey's sexual initiation, if it happened, would have taken place only after Robert's death and probably only after Sansa's stripping, which I hope you know took place long after the catspaw incident. Perhaps LF stole Tyrion's idea.

I must admit I didn't read anything but the George quote and first line or two after it.  I just thought it was interesting that you claim they do terrible research, yet they were the first people I've seen use that George quote and then I saw you using it too and it made me laugh

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1 hour ago, King Maegor said:

I must admit I didn't read anything but the George quote and first line or two after it.  I just thought it was interesting that you claim they do terrible research, yet they were the first people I've seen use that George quote and then I saw you using it too and it made me laugh

I see. Alright then. But, I never claimed they didn't know anything, just that their knowledge is not as thorough as it should (and especially as it should be for ones riding such a high horse).

It has been long argued around here the Ned' execution was prompted by LF's whispers because Joffrey's arrogance and stupidity make him easy to manipulate by people who know his way around him (funny how Sansa does it to save Dontos). I just gave more thought to the sexual element here because I'm not sure if whispering the right thing in one's ear would be described as "hidden influence" (does Sansa have hidden influence, as well?), to me it's more like willingness to listen to such whispers, so I thought about the ways that LF might ingratiate himself with Joffrey, and when I came across Tyrion's mention about arranging Joff a visit to Chataya's, it just clicked in my mind that Chataya's is not the only brothel of significance in KL.

I just hope that this connection is not something I heard on Radio Westeros in their Joffrey or LF episode, forgot all about it and then "rediscovered" it, that would be awkward. It's really hard to come by anything new these days.

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There is no reason to assume Littlefinger had anything to do with the Bran thing. That was Robert's fault, and Joffrey acted on the drunken ramblings of his dad. Robert said somebody should put the boy out of his misery, and Joffrey tried to do that to prove to himself - and perhaps even his daddy - that he had it in him to do what needed to be done.

And yes - we do know that Joff was behind that whole thing. It is spelled out in the books two times. 

That rationale makes pretty much no sense from Littlefinger's POV:

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Before the royal party departs King's Landing, LF pulls Joff aside and tells him how bad it would be for his father, his mother, House Lannister and maybe the entire realm if Ned were to become hand, something that Joffrey might overhear or may have already overheard from Cersei and Jaime. LF would then lament -- never directly telling Joffrey anything, mind you -- that the only thing that could prevent that would be a Stark family tragedy, such as the sudden death of one of the children, and oh, by the way, that sure is a very fine VS dagger in your father's collection...

So when Bran falls, it would appear to Joffrey that the problem has resolved itself. But to his surprise, Bran actually lives and Ned agrees to become hand. So that's when Joffrey decides to send the catspaw. And when that fails, we have the extraordinary event on the Trident where the crown prince and his bride-to-be are allowed to ride off alone through unfamiliar countryside to do who knows what. If I had to guess, I'll bet Cersei set that up so that Joff could get her drunk and besmirch her honor, although Joff had far more sinister plans...

Littlefinger wants Ned to become the Hand. That is why he has Lysa to write the letter. It makes the death of Jon Arryn look suspicious and reawakens and fuels the anti-Lannister feelings in Ned.

Littlefinger has nothing to gain from an attempt on any of the Stark children, especially considering that this could have very well led to Ned canceling the whole Hand thing. In fact, Littlefinger most likely wanted to draw both Ned and Cat to KL. 

As to Joff's little ride with Sansa - that one was entirely unplanned. Sansa and Arya were supposed to spend the day with Cersei and Myrcella, and Sansa only ended up with Joffrey because Renly, Selmy, and Payne showed up unexpectedly. And even Joff only treated Mycah the way he did because he was drunk and wanted to show off in front of Sansa. At that point he had no reason yet to resent Sansa. She is a very beautiful girl, after all. But when his future wife sees how her younger sister and her wolf overwhelm and injure Joffrey the whole thing is over before it began. Joffrey cannot get over that.

And it is understandable in this culture. A man is supposed to be able to protect women, not to be overwhelmed and injured by them, ending up at their mercy.

As to Joffrey and brothels:

Joff is still a child. He is twelve in AGoT, and thirteen in the other two books. In ACoK and ASoS he begins to discover his own sexuality - remember how he had Sansa's dress torn when the KG beat her up? - but he isn't yet at the point where he actually has sex. That would have come with Margaery. Even his threat to Sansa that he would force her to have sex with him ended up to be an empty threat.

The idea that Cersei and Sandor would have allowed Littlefinger to take Joffrey to a brothel is pretty much out of the question. Sandor is the sworn shield of the Crown Prince, and Tyrion is very aware that he would have to separate Joff from Sandor to get him to Chataya's.

And note that Littlefinger would have to get an eleven-year-old Joffrey to a brothel - he gets twelve shortly before Jon Arryn dies, and then they go to Winterfell and we get AGoT. Do we believe the 11-year-old Joffrey was already interested in sex? Do we really think that's the main interest of a boy who is really happy when he can use a crossbow to shoot some hares in the castle yard? I don't think so.

Chances are very low that Littlefinger even had the time and opportunity to pull something like that off. Especially not in ACoK and ASoS, where he was spending a lot of time outside the capital.

In that sense, this scenario is pretty much impossible:

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It would certainly only come after Robert's death, perhaps after that very public stripping of Sansa showing Joffrey's developing sexual interest. However, getting someone out of the Red Keep under everyone's noses is not so problematic, we have seen LF do just that. - Or, being a brothel owner, he may have brought some girls in. As for the Hound... he needs to eat, sleep and defecate, so it was humanly impossible for him to be alongside Joffrey 24/7, and if he was... perhaps he was offered, you know, services for free?

Getting a whore inside the castle would be possible - but not inside the royal apartments of Maegor's Holdfast. There are no secret passageways in there but for the secret escape route Maegor had built. And the king cannot just disappear for a couple of hours, not to mention that he would never be alone in there anyway. Sandor is just his sworn shield, not his servant, groom, page, squire, etc. in one person. And as king Joff would be constantly have other KG around him, too.

Bribing the Hound with sex makes no sense. I'm sure the man frequents brothels but why on earth should he believe a man like Littlefinger doesn't have nefarious intentions when he tries to separate the king from his sworn shield? And the chance that they all had an orgy together - with Littlefinger, Sandor, and Joffrey fucking some whores doesn't sound even remotely plausible to me.

Also keep in mind the repercussions of such an affair if anyone witnessed or overheard them. Cersei might very well have had all the heads of the men involved.

Tyrion could have arranged a visit to a brothel if he had successfully come up with a pretext to get Joff out of the Red Keep. But he failed at that.

Littlefinger's influence over Joffrey is easily explained. Joffrey is a very dumb character. He is not particularly smart. But he is very headstrong. You can manipulate him and lead him around at the nose but you have to do it in the subtle ways Littlefinger is really good at.

If we take the crucial thing there - the idea that Littlefinger is the man behind Ned's execution - then we already know how Littlefinger made that happen. Slynt was his man, so the actual execution was easily ensured. As Master of Coin Littlefinger had access to Prince and King Joffrey. And Littlefinger is a likable guy, who always cracks a joke, etc. And we know Joff's own rationale as to why Ned had to be executed. Because women are weak, and a strong king actually punish traitors. So the idea there is that Littlefinger and Joff talked at one point shortly before the execution, and Littlefinger was leading the conversation towards Ned's treason, and treason in general, possibly asking Joffrey how he thought traitors should be dealt with. Joffrey was most likely already not all that happy with the idea to allow Ned to take the black. So all Littlefinger needed to do was to push some buttons, perhaps saying that Robert would never have allowed Ned to get away with such treason. Or he could have pointed out that Cersei as a woman was just too weak to actually dare to do what a strong king would do - give the Realm some justice.

We know Littlefinger operates the same way later with the jousting dwarfs. There would have been some conversation between him and Joffrey about the arrangements for the wedding where Littlefinger would have brought up the idea of the jousting dwarfs, convincing Joff to go along with the idea.

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9 hours ago, King Maegor said:

I must admit I didn't read anything but the George quote and first line or two after it.  I just thought it was interesting that you claim they do terrible research, yet they were the first people I've seen use that George quote and then I saw you using it too and it made me laugh

Oh lawdy! This GRRM quote has been used many times for a few years now on any of the multiple threads that have anything to do with the cat's paw and Bran and Joffrey and the Dagger, etc. If I was at my computer I'd link them for you to read. 

This quote is not a hidden secret by any means, and it makes the perfect jumping off point for theories and discussion like this thread. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 10/15/2017 at 7:52 AM, Ygrain said:

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden influence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/2997

 

So, I wondered what this hidden influence over Joffrey might have been and how he gained it, and it occured to me:

Tyrion wanted to ingratiate himself to Joffrey by arranging him a visit at Chataya's and even discussed it with Varys, but never actually got round to it. What if LF had the same idea? He has a brothel, he knows his way out of Red Keep... Joffrey's sexual harrassment of Sansa certainly increased in ASOS - not that it couldn't be explained by his overblown ego, but if he actually had gained some sexual experience, it might show this quote in a bit different light:

“My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed... and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”

Also:

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IIRC, show LF did supply Joffrey with prostitutes, so the idea may not be actually that of the show creators but from GRRM himself.

Sorry if this has been noted before, I don't recall reading it around here.

I think the response is designed to leave open the door that Petyr was behind Eddard's beheading, but to close the door on the idea that he was behind Joffrey's move against Bran, which only came after the defenestration. 

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19 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

If he was to beamirch her honour they would probably get married almost as soon as the got to KL

No, it would instantly disqualify her as a fit consort to the king, even if Joffrey forced himself on her. For one thing, he would just lie and claim Sansa was the seducer, and even if nobody believed that she would still be viewed as "soiled" and unfit to be queen.

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