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Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?


Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I, for one, would find it very surprising if some of the most honorable men ever set aside their rightful King for anything or anyone other than possibly trying to save all of humanity/Westeros. 

When a monarch becomes a dotard I think it raises legitimate questions as to whether they are in fact still King. We could argue that Aerys's mind had abdicated even if his mouth had not, in which case the matter would likely be decided by the heir and KG LC (think 25th Amendment). Maybe they keep letting him sit the throne, but place all significant power elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't mean that the KG cared she was screaming for her brother. I was only saying that the conversation was odd & pointing out that Ned didn't ask them about Lyanna. Maybe he did & we just didn't get that part of the convo yet. 

Here's a question. Because I've been wondering about that myself. Does Ned even know that Lyanna is in that tower? The Ned's exchange with Arthur, Oswell and Gerold Hightower seems to indicate that he is searching for them. Lewyn Martell and Jon Darry both died on the Trident, Jaime is not going to be a problem, Barristan Selmy is badly injured and has bent the knee. But those three missing Kingsguard are a problem and a danger to Robert's reign. Would Robert be able to sit the throne comfortably with those three on the loose? They can easily be a rallying point for the loyalists and Viserys's cause. 

It almost feels like he stumbled upon Lyanna when he went looking for them. I'd pay money to know the name of the person who gave them up. 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well no we don't I'm just speculating. 

The whole "but we don't know anything" is directed towards me and not towards any poster. I constantly have to remind myself that we don't know anything so that I don't headcanon the hell out of something and then read the book and go "but I don't understand." 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I, for one, would find it very surprising if some of the most honorable men ever set aside their rightful King for anything or anyone other than possibly trying to save all of humanity/Westeros. 

Aerys's mind is gone though. And I doubt Rhaegar was advocating kin and kingslaying. He would probably have been regent until Aerys died, but people like Aerys tend to live very long lives because it makes others miserable and complicates everything. I know that Kingsguard vows are complicated and they have to essentially swear blind allegiance to their king, and I guess it comes down to if they're given the opportunity to serve someone better, do they take it? Arthur and Oswell seem to have decided exactly that. 

Aerys knew of the prophecy. He was forced to marry someone he didn't like to produce a prophecy baby. We don't have enough to go on, but he doesn't seem to have cared about the end of the world or saving humanity especially once Varys entered the picture.

And I'll always find it weird that the Targs were aware of this potential apocalypse and never took interest in the north, the NW or the Wall. The NW had 10,000 swords during the conquest and those numbers fell to barely 1,000 three hundred years later. I find this pretty messed up. The NW was doing better before the Targaryens conquered Westeros.

55 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think there's also a subtext to Ned's private thoughts and interactions with Robert that Ned would have supported Rhaegar, too, but felt honor-bound to help his more immediate allies.

That's the other thing. It seems Ned went to war only to remove Aerys from the throne. I don't have access to the books just now, but isn't there a passage where Ned recalls Robert going to him and telling him he will claim the throne for himself? Once Robert says that, there's really no turning back and Rhaegar has to die.

55 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I'm surprised I haven't seen a thorough side-by-side of Ned and JonCon, both acting as father to one of Rhaegar's (supposed) children and emotionally unable to move past their losses. 

Do it! Do it! Do it!

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1 hour ago, cgrav said:

When a monarch becomes a dotard I think it raises legitimate questions as to whether they are in fact still King. We could argue that Aerys's mind had abdicated even if his mouth had not, in which case the matter would likely be decided by the heir and KG LC (think 25th Amendment). Maybe they keep letting him sit the throne, but place all significant power elsewhere.

 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Aerys's mind is gone though. And I doubt Rhaegar was advocating kin and kingslaying. He would probably have been regent until Aerys died, but people like Aerys tend to live very long lives because it makes others miserable and complicates everything. I know that Kingsguard vows are complicated and they have to essentially swear blind allegiance to their king, and I guess it comes down to if they're given the opportunity to serve someone better, do they take it? Arthur and Oswell seem to have decided exactly that. 

I can buy into something like this. What I couldn't buy into is the KG conspiring with Rhaegar to kill or overthrow Aerys. Rhaegar acting as a regent of sorts allowing Aerys to remain on the throne but essentially holding all the power makes more sense. 

 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

The whole "but we don't know anything" is directed towards me and not towards any poster. I constantly have to remind myself that we don't know anything so that I don't headcanon the hell out of something and then read the book and go "but I don't understand." 

I gotcha :)

 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

And I'll always find it weird that the Targs were aware of this potential apocalypse and never took interest in the north, the NW or the Wall. The NW had 10,000 swords during the conquest and those numbers fell to barely 1,000 three hundred years later. I find this pretty messed up. The NW was doing better before the Targaryens conquered Westeros.

Yes! I've wondered this as well but can't come up with a satisfactory answer. 

 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Do it! Do it! Do it!

I second that! 

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Personal theory :

Rhaegar asked them to keep Lyanna and her soon-to-be-born child from Robert forces at all costs, knowing that he would kill the baby and force Lyanna to marry him. 

Ned arriving just minutes after delivery, to see her die is not very credible. Also, it would mean Ned would have to travel several days to Starfall without wetnurse, on horseback in a desert-like setting.

So :

  • The KGs and Lyanna were hidden in ToJ and were probably waiting to move somewhere else as soon as it would be possible - ToJ is not that far from Oldtown, were they would be able to sail anywhere else.
  • The KGs probably assumed they would be able to take the small group out. Apart from Ned, they are pretty much nobodies compared to the KG, there is no reason for them to just surrender, even less when the opposing forces are not that overwhelming.
  • Maybe Lyanna didn't die from delivery process, and instead committed suicide once aware of the facts that Rhaegar lost, the guards are dead and she will be forced to marry Robert.

The only thing I don't like about the theory is that it kind of duplicate the fate of Ashara Dayne, that would be ugly from a story-telling standpoint.

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I am not sure that the Tower of Joy story that we have been led to believe actually went down that way. It was unnecessary to have that kind of carnage considering, even though he was young, Ned, as the leader of his band and peole whow were "guarding". I think there is more to be revealed whichy may include some still alive people whom we have thought to have died there.

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19 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I am not sure that the Tower of Joy story that we have been led to believe actually went down that way. It was unnecessary to have that kind of carnage considering, even though he was young, Ned, as the leader of his band and peole whow were "guarding". I think there is more to be revealed whichy may include some still alive people whom we have thought to have died there.

This.

The best way to hide the truth of what happened at the ToJ is to pull it down. No one is going to go digging in the rubble or looking for dead people. Setting fire to the inside of the tower to remove all traces of Lyanna and evidence of her giving birth is one thing, but bringing down a tower is another level, I think. Ned isn't tormented by one lie, he's tormented by several lies he's told. This goes beyond the promise he made his sister.

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I second that! 

You guys making me do a bunch of re-read! 

But it would actually be cool to do a character comparison like that, and to my knowledge nobody has put those two next to each other. I recently started a long post on the complexity of Ned's honor (or lack thereof), but my points seemed a bit "duh", so I would enjoy doing a post on something less explored.

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

The best way to hide the truth of what happened at the ToJ is to pull it down. No one is going to go digging in the rubble or looking for dead people. Setting fire to the inside of the tower to remove all traces of Lyanna and evidence of her giving birth is one thing, but bringing down a tower is another level, I think. Ned isn't tormented by one lie, he's tormented by several lies he's told. This goes beyond the promise he made his sister.

I agree there are several lies & at least one promise he feels like he didn't keep. IIRC Ned reflects while being held captive by Cersei that he failed to keep a promise. If his only promise was to keep Jon safe & hide his identity it seems odd that he would feel like he didn't keep it. Jon is a member of the NW & Ned has no reason to believe he won't be safe from Robert or that anyone will ever find out his true identity. 

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1 hour ago, cgrav said:

You guys making me do a bunch of re-read! 

But it would actually be cool to do a character comparison like that, and to my knowledge nobody has put those two next to each other. I recently started a long post on the complexity of Ned's honor (or lack thereof), but my points seemed a bit "duh", so I would enjoy doing a post on something less explored.

I agree! An interesting topic. I'm doing a reread right now. About half way through aGoT

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree there are several lies & at least one promise he feels like he didn't keep. IIRC Ned reflects while being held captive by Cersei that he failed to keep a promise. If his only promise was to keep Jon safe & hide his identity it seems odd that he would feel like he didn't keep it. Jon is a member of the NW & Ned has no reason to believe he won't be safe from Robert or that anyone will ever find out his true identity. 

Unless you are referring to something else, Ned says that he kept the promises he made Lyanna and he paid the price for them. This happens after he meets Barra and her mother.

Ned does feel ashamed when he thinks of Jon though. 

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23 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

Unless you are referring to something else, Ned says that he kept the promises he made Lyanna and he paid the price for them. This happens after he meets Barra and her mother.

Ned does feel ashamed when he thinks of Jon though. 

 

No, I'm referring to when Ned is being held in the black cells. 

 

 

 

 

Here's a quote. I'm pretty sure he refers to not being able to keep his promise at some other point as well.

 

 

Quote

 

He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping.
         When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares.

 

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8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't mean that the KG cared she was screaming for her brother. I was only saying that the conversation was odd & pointing out that Ned didn't ask them about Lyanna. Maybe he did & we just didn't get that part of the convo yet. 

He's a rebel who overthrew their king, of course they're going to fight him. 

Also what makes you think they would have handed Lyanna over to him willingly? 

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7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

That's the other thing. It seems Ned went to war only to remove Aerys from the throne. I don't have access to the books just now, but isn't there a passage where Ned recalls Robert going to him and telling him he will claim the throne for himself? Once Robert says that, there's really no turning back and Rhaegar has to die.

Aerys had to go but there's no evidence that they were going to overthrow the Targs entirely until Rhaegar made it clear that he was allying with his father instead of brokering peace with the rebellious lords. 

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39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, I'm referring to when Ned is being held in the black cells. 

Oh, right! 

Question. Are the promises broken because he's sitting in a jail cell and no longer has any control over the situation?

This is the same chapter he asks Varys to deliver a message and we have no idea if he ever wrote it and if it was ever delivered.

Quote

Aerys had to go but there's no evidence that they were going to overthrow the Targs entirely until Rhaegar made it clear that he was allying with his father instead of brokering peace with the rebellious lords. 

Rhaegar chose his kin, but he also told Jaime there would be changes when he came back, so at the very least, he was intent on that. I think too much happened for Robert and Rhaegar to ever be able to sit at the same table and speak and come to an understanding. I sort of go back to ADWD, when Davos is at the Sisters, and the expectation was that Robert and Rhaegar would going to meet on the battlefield. 

I think we can agree that Rhaegar blundered during the rebellion.

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1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

He's a rebel who overthrew their king, of course they're going to fight him. 

Also what makes you think they would have handed Lyanna over to him willingly? 

I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong passage or if you meant to quote some one else but again, I was just wondering as to why Ned's conversation with the KG does not include something about where his sister is, or demanding they hand her over - something to that nature. 

44 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Oh, right! 

Question. Are the promises broken because he's sitting in a jail cell and no longer has any control over the situation?

Maybe. I'm just wondering what exactly those promises could be. I really have no speculation as to what they might be but it's interesting to think it must be something other than what the majority of people believe "promise me Ned" means - which is basically to protect Jon from Robert. 

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5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think we can agree that Rhaegar blundered during the rebellion.

Don’t think anyone can disagree with that. House Targaryen has been vulnerable to a rebellion ever since they lost their dragons, all it needed was one mad king and a disrespectful crown prince for lords to finally do something about it. 

There was no going back for Rhaegar and the fact that he thought there was shows the cracks in Targaryen rule and why to many Robert’s Rebellion was completely justified. 

Going back to the original question; maybe it was just too obvious why Ned was there, or perhaps he did confront them he just didn’t say in his PoV

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6 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Don’t think anyone can disagree with that. House Targaryen has been vulnerable to a rebellion ever since they lost their dragons, all it needed was one mad king and a disrespectful crown prince for lords to finally do something about it. 

There was no going back for Rhaegar and the fact that he thought there was shows the cracks in Targaryen rule and why to many Robert’s Rebellion was completely justified. 

It actually occurs to me that maybe there were overtures made between Rhaegar and the rebellion to negotiate something. We saw some "efforts" made during the War of the Five Kings and it was all pretty laughable, but I guess they tried in their own way. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for Robert's Rebellion. Lyanna might have been the deal breaker for both men though.

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38 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It actually occurs to me that maybe there were overtures made between Rhaegar and the rebellion to negotiate something. We saw some "efforts" made during the War of the Five Kings and it was all pretty laughable, but I guess they tried in their own way. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for Robert's Rebellion. Lyanna might have been the deal breaker for both men though.

But Rhaegar was "missing" for much of it and in his absence you would be relying on making peace with the unhinged King who demanded Robert and Ned's heads. I would say there is a big risk that an envoy carrying negotiation terms could be killed by Aerys. By the time Rhaegar returns I think it's too late for such actions.

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Many people want to like Rheagar because of affection they have for Jon but based on all that we know so far, Rhaegar really messed things up and the Rebellion by Ned, Robert and their allies was justified and perhaps the only logical course of action considering what had taken place and all that they themselves knew to be true at the time. I do have reservations about what happened at the tower of Joy as I simply cannot believe that they, the Kingsguard would think that Ned Stark would slaughter his own kin. I just don't.

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