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Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?


Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But Rhaegar was "missing" for much of it and in his absence you would be relying on making peace with the unhinged King who demanded Robert and Ned's heads. I would say there is a big risk that an envoy carrying negotiation terms could be killed by Aerys. By the time Rhaegar returns I think it's too late for such actions.

What I was saying is that maybe he (Rhaegar) made overtures, not that Aerys tried to make peace. I don't think anyone would wanna negotiate anything with him anyway. Rhaegar was missing as you said, and we have no idea what he was up to. We don't know what he knew, what he didn't know, who he was in touch with while he was MIA. We don't even know what prompted him to up and leave with his friends in winter to find Lyanna.

My assumptions on the negotiation are solely based on what we know from the War of the Five Kings since the beats seem to be similar enough.

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57 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Many people want to like Rheagar because of affection they have for Jon but based on all that we know so far, Rhaegar really messed things up and the Rebellion by Ned, Robert and their allies was justified and perhaps the only logical course of action considering what had taken place and all that they themselves knew to be true at the time. I do have reservations about what happened at the tower of Joy as I simply cannot believe that they, the Kingsguard would think that Ned Stark would slaughter his own kin. I just don't.

It's not just deadly threats they protect against. They are tasked to protect from anything, especially a threat to deny the king's right to rule. That includes kidnapping.

 

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1 minute ago, cgrav said:

It's not just deadly threats they protect against. They are tasked to protect from anything, especially a threat to deny the king's right to rule. That includes kidnapping.

 

I understand that Jon was there, he may not even be named Jon and he was and is Rhaegar's son but Ned it seems wanted to find his sister. I also have another question that the books have not answered, not yet anyways but it is; how did Ned find out that Lyanna was at The Tower of Joy to begin with? Varys?

These Kingsguards said nothing to Ned?  No explaination other than "we swore and oath".

Nothing other than try to kill Lyanna's brother as he is there looking for her. They would have known more about what had been going on there at that tower as well as the war in general.

As the baby King's mother and apparent Defacto Regent, was Lyanna not informed of her brother's arrival?

Was Lyanna kept in the dark about all of the murders in KL which included her eldest brother, father, bannermen and their heirs by Rhaegar's dad?

Based on what we know about Lyanna's situation is that she was either kept in this tower for breeding with no contact to her outside world or she did not care or even send ravens with or without Rhaegar's help or knowledge to try and make peace. It just does not add up for me, yet anyway.

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5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

It actually occurs to me that maybe there were overtures made between Rhaegar and the rebellion to negotiate something. 

Doubt it Rhaegar kept himself in hiding until the very end of the war and when he finally emerged he took Aerys' side, thus making it clear that he doesn't respect the rights of the liege lords nor does he see fault in his actions. 

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rhaegar really messed things up and the Rebellion by Ned, Robert and their allies was justified and perhaps the only logical course of action considering what had taken place and all that they themselves knew to be true at the time. 

:agree:

Robert was declared king only after Rhaegar showed up to fight for his dad rather than apologise to the rebels. The message he sent was clear; he wasn’t sorry about his actions regarding Lyanna, and was fine with what his dad did to the Starks. 

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I simply cannot believe that they, the Kingsguard would think that Ned Stark would slaughter his own kin. I just don't.

Given the conditions Ned found her in I doubt there was a maester which means they must have known Lyanna wasn't going to survive childbirth (maybe they didn't even want her to), which has me guessing it wasn't her they were protecting from Ned it was her unborn baby because even if they knew Ned wouldn't kill his own kin there's also no way he'd let them take the child. 

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3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

These Kingsguards said nothing to Ned?  No explaination other than "we swore and oath".

The subtext here is that everyone knows exactly what's going on... except the reader. Ned's conversation with the KG is very lawyerly and he offers them opportunities to plausibly deny knowledge of a living heir.

Ned was a battle hardened rebel commander. It didn't  really matter what he said or what his intentions might have been - the KG's prerogative was not to question orders and certainly not to negotiate terms of surrender with rebels, regardless of familial connections. 

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They were Kingsguard and it's logical to die for their king. Ned and his crew were rebels.

And do you think a narrow man like Ned would parley with the Kingsguard? Jaime's thoughts might explain this: "The moment he saw me, he found me guilty" (or something in that manner).

So Ned was there to try to save his sister from these evil servants of the rapist Rhaegar and the Kingsguard was about to stop the band of rebels who would do gods know what with the baby king and his mother. 

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27 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

They were Kingsguard and it's logical to die for their king. Ned and his crew were rebels.

And do you think a narrow man like Ned would parley with the Kingsguard? Jaime's thoughts might explain this: "The moment he saw me, he found me guilty" (or something in that manner).

So Ned was there to try to save his sister from these evil servants of the rapist Rhaegar and the Kingsguard was about to stop the band of rebels who would do gods know what with the baby king and his mother. 

Except Ned doesn't see these men as evil serpents nor does he seem to think Rhaegar is a rapist. 

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8 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

After they're all dead, he doesn't. But before, did he know any other truth than "Rhaegar raped Lyanna"?

I don't know but you would think if he believed Rhaegar raped his sister he would have some ill thoughts about him. 

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3 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

After they're all dead, he doesn't. But before, did he know any other truth than "Rhaegar raped Lyanna"?

My biggest hang up with this is that it seems Ned is looking for the kingsguard, not for his sister. Does he go to Storm's End because he thinks that the missing kingsguard are with Mace Tyrell or does he go to Storm's End because it needs to be handled. In which case Lyanna doesn't seem to be his top priority. Maybe he thought she was dead or something, but his whole behavior feels weird to me.

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Doubt it Rhaegar kept himself in hiding until the very end of the war and when he finally emerged he took Aerys' side, thus making it clear that he doesn't respect the rights of the liege lords nor does he see fault in his actions. 

:agree:

Robert was declared king only after Rhaegar showed up to fight for his dad rather than apologise to the rebels. The message he sent was clear; he wasn’t sorry about his actions regarding Lyanna, and was fine with what his dad did to the Starks. 

Given the conditions Ned found her in I doubt there was a maester which means they must have known Lyanna wasn't going to survive childbirth (maybe they didn't even want her to), which has me guessing it wasn't her they were protecting from Ned it was her unborn baby because even if they knew Ned wouldn't kill his own kin there's also no way he'd let them take the child. 

Rhaegar certainly stood behind his father and supported all of his actions once the fighting started and for that, he earned his death. He could have removed his own father after the murders in KL and the Kingsguard + most of the crownswords might have or simply would have helped him but no, he went out to fight and kill the Justified rebels. No sympathy for him from me.

I really thing more happened at the Tower of Joy.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

They were Kingsguard and it's logical to die for their king. Ned and his crew were rebels.

And do you think a narrow man like Ned would parley with the Kingsguard? Jaime's thoughts might explain this: "The moment he saw me, he found me guilty" (or something in that manner).

So Ned was there to try to save his sister from these evil servants of the rapist Rhaegar and the Kingsguard was about to stop the band of rebels who would do gods know what with the baby king and his mother. 

Given the optics of KL, Lannister lions flying everywhere, the bodies of the Targs lying there and Jaime seated on the Iron Thone with his sword dripping with the blood of the king he swore to protect, yep, Ned was right to think and feel that way. That would have been a good time for Jaime to speak up to everyone about what happened. Also, given him and his sister's actions for years, yep again, Ned thinking that the Lannisters wanted to take over KL and the Iron Throne for themselves was absolutely correct. Jaime was a tool and he never realized it until he adventured into the Riverlands in book 4,5.

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44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know but you would think if he believed Rhaegar raped his sister he would have some ill thoughts about him. 

Before the parley with the Kingsguard that never happened, he probably had ill thoughts about him. He found out the truth later, presumably. So in the present, he doesn't have ill thoughts.

 

36 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

My biggest hang up with this is that it seems Ned is looking for the kingsguard, not for his sister. Does he go to Storm's End because he thinks that the missing kingsguard are with Mace Tyrell or does he go to Storm's End because it needs to be handled. In which case Lyanna doesn't seem to be his top priority. Maybe he thought she was dead or something, but his whole behavior feels weird to me.

You're right. Like someone said, he was drugged when he had that fever dream, so who knows what he intended or knew or didn't know. 

He might've been to Storm's end because of both, but duty is for sure his one reason: it had to be done.

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22 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

My biggest hang up with this is that it seems Ned is looking for the kingsguard, not for his sister. Does he go to Storm's End because he thinks that the missing kingsguard are with Mace Tyrell or does he go to Storm's End because it needs to be handled. In which case Lyanna doesn't seem to be his top priority. Maybe he thought she was dead or something, but his whole behavior feels weird to me.

He probably believed she was safe. I think he was on a cleanup tour in the south, just taking care of stuff while Robert recuperated. Presumably that included finding the new king's betrothed, but it's entirely unclear if he thought she was in danger or held against her will. The mention of rose petals in her hand is almost certainly meant to convey a caring relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

I think the ToJ tips Ned and into regretting the rebellion and the things he did to support a King who he acknowledges kinda sucks at ruling. Realizing he killed three of the most honorable people he knew and depriving his own blood of its right to rule could not have been easy on his conscience. 

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30 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Given the optics of KL, Lannister lions flying everywhere, the bodies of the Targs lying there and Jaime seated on the Iron Thone with his sword dripping with the blood of the king he swore to protect, yep, Ned was right to think and feel that way. That would have been a good time for Jaime to speak up to everyone about what happened. Also, given him and his sister's actions for years, yep again, Ned thinking that the Lannisters wanted to take over KL and the Iron Throne for themselves was absolutely correct. Jaime was a tool and he never realized it until he adventured into the Riverlands in book 4,5.

Jaime should've spoke up, but Eddard was a narrow man nevertheless. Of course he won't talk Kingsguard out of fighting. I don't think anyone would have tbh.

 

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31 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Before the parley with the Kingsguard that never happened, he probably had ill thoughts about him. He found out the truth later, presumably. So in the present, he doesn't have ill thoughts

Possibly but why would his opinion of the KG have changed? 

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Arya is described as being a lot like Lyanna. Do you imagine her running off with a pretty prince and betraying her family? Living in some Tower in the desert with no contact to the outside world? Marrying an older man that is already wed? If anything, Arya said it correctly when Ned said something very similar:

Quote

Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa.” She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there

You all seem to think she ran away with him because she did not like Robert... this would be the most terrible thing a woman could do in a feudal society. Women were only important for political marriages and having children. That she would run away spits on the Starks, not the Baratheons or anyone else. At 14-15, she would know this. 

Also, imagine the son of the mad king, scion of a family known for madness trying to convince someone of a prophecy... lol

That Lyanna would have gone willingly just seems so out of character from what we know.

When Ned reflects that he does not think Rhaegar would visit brothels, I thought he was just comparing him and Robert. Like, Robert is fat and drunk and needs to pay women and is not known for ever having raped anyone. On the other hand, the pretty dragon prince did not need whores because he could either get any lady he wants with his harp, or just did what many other Targs before him and TOOK what he wanted. 

Ned has the most justifiable reasons to hate the Targs, and when he reflected that Robert still hated Rhaegar so much, I thought it was just disappointement that his friend would still have a grudge for someone he killed, as well as eliminating their entire family. 

With the information that we have, it seems more likely that Lyanna was taken and being kept as a captive. Maybe Danny's stockholm syndrome with Drogo is what happened with Rhaegar, but that she would "elope" with him or accept to have kids because she was convinced of a prophecy? For all we know, the roses in her hand could have been the only thing she was allowed to have in her room...

Another point is, the Kingsguard are not these great amazing honorable men. They are just men. Some were chosen for their skill, some to show favour to their family and some even to spite their family. Some will betray for love, lust, gold or even their own notion of honor like Jaimie. Why would these 3 be any different? Because Ned reflects that they were honorable?

To conclude, we do not know what happened and have so little information that this thead is just fanfiction at its best. I mean, a poppy induce fever dream is what you guys are using to find out the truth...

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I agree it's to imagine Arya running off with some prince but we don't really know Lyanna the way we know Arya so it's pretty hard to say what she would do. Arya wouldn't go sit at the tournament, in a lovely gown, to even have the opportunity to be crowned the queen of love & beauty but Lyanna did. 

10 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

When Ned reflects that he does not think Rhaegar would visit brothels, I thought he was just comparing him and Robert. Like, Robert is fat and drunk and needs to pay women and is not known for ever having raped anyone. On the other hand, the pretty dragon prince did not need whores because he could either get any lady he wants with his harp, or just did what many other Targs before him and TOOK what he wanted. 

I don't agree. Robert was once young & handsome as well. Ned was speaking to Robert's character vs Rhaegar's character here. 

 

11 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

Ned has the most justifiable reasons to hate the Targs, and when he reflected that Robert still hated Rhaegar so much, I thought it was just disappointement that his friend would still have a grudge for someone he killed, as well as eliminating their entire family. 

Ned has justifiable reasons to hate Aerys Targaryen & possibly Rhaegar. He has no justifiable reason to hate all the Targs. Yet he still doesn't seem to which is odd to me. Maybe he just doesn't hold grudges I guess but I think the more likely answer is that he doesn't hate Rhaegar because he has no reason to hate Rhaegar. 

 

13 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

Another point is, the Kingsguard are not these great amazing honorable men. They are just men. Some were chosen for their skill, some to show favour to their family and some even to spite their family. Some will betray for love, lust, gold or even their own notion of honor like Jaimie. Why would these 3 be any different? Because Ned reflects that they were honorable?

Yes precisely because Ned reflects they are honorable. The text tells us they are honorable men - therefore the only logical thing to believe is that they were honorable men. I highly doubt any of them would have betrayed for lust or gold else they wouldn't have gotten the reputation that they have. Betraying for their own notion of honor? That's something different. They may have been doing exactly. 

 

16 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

Also, imagine the son of the mad king, scion of a family known for madness trying to convince someone of a prophecy... lol

No one seems to think Rhaegar was mad though. He would have the same amount of trouble getting someone to believe in a prophecy as any sane person would. I honestly don't think he would have had that much trouble at all. Prophecy seems to be readily accepted by many people in Westeros. 

 

19 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

To conclude, we do not know what happened and have so little information that this thead is just fanfiction at its best. I mean, a poppy induce fever dream is what you guys are using to find out the truth...

Well of course we don't know what happened that's why we are dicussing it. That is kind of the point of the forum. 

What is fanfiction? The OP is only asking why there needed to be a fight at the ToJ. No fan fiction there - or anywhere I've seen in this thread. Merely people throwing ideas out there.

And since the only recollection of the ToJ incident is a fever dream what do you propose we use when discussing the events surrounding  the ToJ. 

 

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Yeah I really don't think we're being misled about Rhaegar's character. Robert and Brandon might be the only two people who have a personal problem with Rhaegar, while everyone else's memories are neutral to positive. Even Jaime looked up to Rhaegar and feels remorse for letting down his prince and fellow Kingsguard - but not for killing Aerys. Barristan regards Rhaegar very highly, but not Aerys. JonCon seems very honorable and has strong affection for Rhaegar, to say the least. Ned has no negative thoughts about him, which you'd think he would if he'd actually done terrible things to Lyanna. 

1 hour ago, Spilledguts said:

I mean, a poppy induce fever dream is what you guys are using to find out the truth...

Dreams of any kind are a very common literary device, usually meant to tell the reader something about the inner state of the character having the dream. Often dreams relate something that the dreamer is afraid to confront straightforwardly waking. And this is literature, so the choice to show this is in a dream is intentional and meaningful. Why would this scene even exist if it weren't significant in some way?  Ned experiences this memory in a dream because it's deeply uncomfortable for him, not because it's some hallucination.  Jaime's weirwood stump dream is another example of uncomfortable truth coming to surface, and in his case, catalyzing his redemption. 

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