Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

[A Ghost of Someone]

6 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Jaime should've spoke up, but Eddard was a narrow man nevertheless. Of course he won't talk Kingsguard out of fighting. I don't think anyone would have tbh.

 

Jaime is a bit narcissistic and I am not sure there was as big a fight at the Tower as we have thought.

[Pikachu101]

12 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rhaegar certainly stood behind his father and supported all of his actions once the fighting started and for that, he earned his death. He could have removed his own father after the murders in KL and the Kingsguard + most of the crownswords might have or simply would have helped him but no, he went out to fight and kill the Justified rebels. No sympathy for him from me.

I do think if Rhaegar negotiated an alliance to overthrow his father and allow for lords to put more checks and balances on Targ ruling Robert would have never been crowned king. 

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No one seems to think Rhaegar was mad though.

There's different types of madness, some are violent like Aerys whilst others fail to see reason like Rhaegar. A sane man wouldn't disrespect three noble houses, nor would he allow a kingdom to (that needs to be strong in ready for the prophecy) collapse into civil war but Rhaegar did just that.

9 hours ago, Spilledguts said:

With the information that we have, it seems more likely that Lyanna was taken and being kept as a captive. Maybe Danny's stockholm syndrome with Drogo is what happened with Rhaegar, but that she would "elope" with him or accept to have kids because she was convinced of a prophecy? 

How do we even know she wanted to be Rhaegar's baby maker? Having a child at 15 is dangerous because the mother is too young, Rhaella was only a year younger than Lyanna and she almost died giving birth to Rhaegar. Given the conditions Ned found her in makes me suspect there was no maester at hand, which means Rhaegar didn't care if she lived or died. 

9 hours ago, Spilledguts said:

Another point is, the Kingsguard are not these great amazing honorable men. They are just men. Some were chosen for their skill, some to show favour to their family and some even to spite their family. Some will betray for love, lust, gold or even their own notion of honor like Jaimie. Why would these 3 be any different? Because Ned reflects that they were honorable?

The duty of the Kingsguard isn't to be honourable knights in shining armour it's to be dutiful to their king (or prince in this matter), and that's exactly what they did. They were there to make sure that baby is born so they can whisk it away because those were their orders, it didn't matter if Lyanna or Ned had to die for this to happen. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 10/18/2017 at 8:36 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Based on nothing really, I always thought it was the beginning of something else, like the beginning of the end. But I also think that these 3 lines'

"Now it begins"
"No, now it ends" and 
"A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death"

are lines that are supposed to be taken together. I don't necessarily think that a red comet was in the sky (actually I do totally think that there was a comet in the sky), but the imagery of the red streak against a canvas of blue to me screams Others vs AA. In the first book, we have no idea about red comets and resurrections and AA/PtwP. If that's what Arthur's line refers to, then for him, this is the start of the real fight. 

Ned's very first act when we see him through Bran's eyes is beheading a deserter of the Night's Watch. If I recall properly he tells Cat that the man was incoherent, had gone mad, but he beheads him anyway without trying to understand what it is that turned that made him go mad. "Now, now it ends."

Like I said, based on nothing, really.

It's most likely the roses that are "Blue as the eyes of death", as the roses are most likely the blue winter roses and a blood-red sky is not likely blue.  However I don't think you are completely wrong as a blood-streaked sky (sun rising/setting) and blue roses would make an blue streak against a canvas of red.  This would be the inverse in terms of color of the comet in the sky.  *The sun rising/setting could symbolize the Targ dynasty if you assume legitimized L+R=J, with sun setting symbolizing the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys II and the sun rising symbolizing the birth of Jon.  Or the start and end of baby King Jon's short reign, assuming that he was crowned by the three Kingsguard.

*I apologies if this part is a bit off topic.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

There's different types of madness, some are violent like Aerys whilst others fail to see reason like Rhaegar. A sane man wouldn't disrespect three noble houses, nor would he allow a kingdom to (that needs to be strong in ready for the prophecy) collapse into civil war but Rhaegar did just that.

Sane men make bad decisions all the time. There is no evidence textual or implied that suggests anyone in asoiaf believed Rhaegar was mad. I'm not sure where you are getting this. 

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

The duty of the Kingsguard isn't to be honourable knights in shining armour it's to be dutiful to their king (or prince in this matter), and that's exactly what they did. They were there to make sure that baby is born so they can whisk it away because those were their orders, it didn't matter if Lyanna or Ned had to die for this to happen. 

The KG are supposed to be honorable knights. Like with Ned though, sometimes not so honorable things (lying etc) are done with honorable intentions. Does that make said person un-honorable? That's in the eye of the beholder. 

We don't have any evidence of what the KG orders were other than what they did. Guard, fight, die if need be to guard that tower with Lyanna & Jon in it. There isn't anything to suggest they were planning on whisking the baby away. Actually I would note they specifically say "The King's guard does not flee, then or now." Implying they had no intentions of whisking anyone anywhere. 

[Pikachu101]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sane men make bad decisions all the time. There is no evidence textual or implied that suggests anyone in asoiaf believed Rhaegar was mad. I'm not sure where you are getting this. 

After centuries of inbreeding the Targs are prone to madness, we even see hints of it in Dany.

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The KG are supposed to be honorable knights.

The sole purpose of the KG is to be loyal to the monarch regardless of whether their actions would be deemed as honourable or not. Arys Oakheart knew it was dishonourable to beat Sansa but he still did it because Joffrey ordered him to.

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We don't have any evidence of what the KG orders were other than what they did. 

But we can deduce from the information we're given and this is it; Lyanna was dying in a pool of blood with no maester in sight which means they were in no hurry to make sure she lived, so we have to assume it was her baby they were protecting from Ned not her. Also I assume they were going to flee with the baby because that's what Rhaella and Varys did with Viserys and Aegon; raise them away from Westeros until they're old enough to take back the throne. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Yet Another ASOIAF Fan said:

It's most likely the roses that are "Blue as the eyes of death", as the roses are most likely the blue winter roses and a blood-red sky is not likely blue.  However I don't think you are completely wrong as a blood-streaked sky (sun rising/setting) and blue roses would make an blue streak against a canvas of red.  This would be the inverse in terms of color of the comet in the sky.  *The sun rising/setting could symbolize the Targ dynasty if you assume legitimized L+R=J, with sun setting symbolizing the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys II and the sun rising symbolizing the birth of Jon.  Or the start and end of baby King Jon's short reign, assuming that he was crowned by the three Kingsguard.

*I apologies if this part is a bit off topic.

I think this is what's sort of neat about this part. It's how open to interpretation it is. Like I'm not sure the whole Harrenhal thing went down the way it has been interpreted.

I caught myself wondering what the KG would have done if Jon had been born a girl.

[Schwarze Sonne]

10 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I caught myself wondering what the KG would have done if Jon had been born a girl.

Probably naming her Visenya, while cursing the Lannisters for killing Aegon and Rhaenys before they made the dragon rider trio.

Oh, and I think Rhaegar's plan to negotiate with those in SA bloc failed before he even crowned Lyanna. It's possible that Rickard and co didn't want to negotiate any term with Rhaegar and outright wanted to rebell to carve their own kingdoms. What was stopping them anyway? We aren't told eveything in Harrenhal, only what we were supposed to know, that could be entirely wrong.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

53 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

After centuries of inbreeding the Targs are prone to madness, we even see hints of it in Dany.

There are more Targs that weren't mad than there were that were mad. There is nothing to suggest Rhaegar is mad. No one suggests it, we don't have any actions of his that appear to be mad. Nothing. I would argue there are no hints of madness in Dany either - hot headed, impulsive, young, naive - yes. Mad? No. 

 

53 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

The sole purpose of the KG is to be loyal to the monarch regardless of whether their actions would be deemed as honourable or not. Arys Oakheart knew it was dishonourable to beat Sansa but he still did it because Joffrey ordered him to.

The KG is supposed to be honorable knights. Whether or not they are is a different story. The particular KG members in question have a reputation for being honorable. 

 

55 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

But we can deduce from the information we're given and this is it; Lyanna was dying in a pool of blood with no maester in sight which means they were in no hurry to make sure she lived, so we have to assume it was her baby they were protecting from Ned not her. Also I assume they were going to flee with the baby because that's what Rhaella and Varys did with Viserys and Aegon; raise them away from Westeros until they're old enough to take back the throne. 

A maester not being there doesn't necessarily mean they were in no hurry to make sure she lived. It may just mean a maester wasn't accessible. They are hiding, in the middle of a war. 

Just because that's what Rhaella & Varys did does not mean that was what the KG intended to do. Rhaella & Varys are hardly Rhaegar & the KG. They may have intended to do that but with what we are given thus far the evidence suggests they did not intend on fleeing anywhere. Again "we do not flee, then or now." 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Probably naming her Visenya, while cursing the Lannisters for killing Aegon and Rhaenys before they made the dragon rider trio.

That's a hard sell for me since I don't buy into the whole Visenya thing. 

14 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Oh, and I think Rhaegar's plan to negotiate with those in SA bloc failed before he even crowned Lyanna. It's possible that Rickard and co didn't want to negotiate any term with Rhaegar and outright wanted to rebell to carve their own kingdoms. What was stopping them anyway? We aren't told eveything in Harrenhal, only what we were supposed to know, that could be entirely wrong.

Would Rickard have been at the tourney with the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell," though? One of the things I hadn't caught before was the look of Rickard's statue in the crypts. Theon describes the face as sad. I think it might be an important detail. Him having possibly been a knight might be an important detail as well. I still think there's more to these alliances than Rickard's so-called southron ambitions. One thing for sure though, is that he was taking the north out of its isolation. And that's something that seems important given what's going on beyond the Wall.

And yes, we don't know all that happened at Harrenhal, so Jon Conn's POV should be especially interesting. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I do think if Rhaegar negotiated an alliance to overthrow his father and allow for lords to put more checks and balances on Targ ruling Robert would have never been crowned king. 

 

That depends on the timeing. The when this would happen. If it had happened before he ran off "not so secretly" with Lyanna (everyone seems to know that he had her) then this all would have been prevented. Dorne might be pissed but the North might have benefited from it.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The KG is supposed to be honorable knights. 

No they're supposed to be the best knights, Visenya chose the strongest men for Aegon not the most honourable. The official asoiaf account even says that their primary goals were to obey, protect, and guard the royal family, honour has nothing to do with it.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The particular KG members in question have a reputation for being honorable. 

According to what exactly? Gerold Hightower was described as fiercely loyal, not honourable he didn't even condemn Brandon and Rickard's deaths, warning Jaime that it was not their place to judge Aerys. Oswell Whent was said to be a great swordsmen who assisted in Lyanna's kidnapping; again he was loyal to Rhaegar but that doesn't make him honourable.

The only one I have an issue with is Arthur, as a Dornishman it doesn't make sense for him to assist in Rhaegar dishonouring Elia. I guess we'll have to wait for TWoW or ADoS to find out what he was up to 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

A maester not being there doesn't necessarily mean they were in no hurry to make sure she lived. It may just mean a maester wasn't accessible.

Rhaegar planned on getting a baby out of Lyanna before anyone even knew she was kidnapped and childbirth is dangerous especially for a 15 year old girl,  if he truly wanted to insure her survival he would have had a maester at the ready. 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just because that's what Rhaella & Varys did does not mean that was what the KG intended to do. 

Just speculation on my half, it's clear they didn't care if Lyanna lived which means they were there for her baby so what were they planning on doing once its born? So I simply assumed they were going to flee the country.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Again "we do not flee, then or now." 

Because Lyanna hadn't given birth yet, they weren't going to abandon Rhaegar's baby but that doesn't mean they were planning on sticking around.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

That's a hard sell for me since I don't buy into the whole Visenya thing. 

Rhaegar wanted a third head, he already has Rhaenys and Aegon so everyone's assuming he wanted a Visenya. 

[Pikachu101]

10 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

That depends on the timeing. The when this would happen. If it had happened before he ran off "not so secretly" with Lyanna (everyone seems to know that he had her) then this all would have been prevented. Dorne might be pissed but the North might have benefited from it.

If Rhaegar showed even an ounce of respect to the liege lords of Westeros a lot of blood would have been spared, but he didn't and that's the whole reason why Robert's Rebellion was triggered. The Targaryens made it clear time and time again that they didn't recognise or honour the rights of their lords. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Rhaegar wanted a third head, he already has Rhaenys and Aegon so everyone's assuming he wanted a Visenya. 

I know why people assume that. I just have my doubts on it.

[Lady bonehead]

I don’t believe Rhaegar was mad, just an impractical dreamer who believed in prophesies and visions and didn’t handle power politics very well. Of course the irony is that he may have been right. 

[Pikachu101]

4 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

I don’t believe Rhaegar was mad, just an impractical dreamer who believed in prophesies and visions and didn’t handle power politics very well. Of course the irony is that he may have been right. 

He was right, Westeros is about to face an impending doom and only TPTWP can save them it's just the way he went about it that makes him so infuriatingly stupid. Surely if Lyanna had to be Visenya's mother then he could have arranged a marriage to her there was no need for an elaborate kidnapping, plus instead of letting Westeros collapse into a civil war when the prophecy states that they need to be a united front he should have waited until he overthrew Aerys. 

The man's a short sighted idiot 

[A Ghost of Someone]

15 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

If Rhaegar showed even an ounce of respect to the liege lords of Westeros a lot of blood would have been spared, but he didn't and that's the whole reason why Robert's Rebellion was triggered. The Targaryens made it clear time and time again that they didn't recognise or honour the rights of their lords. 

Well, if the Rickard Stark was to find out that his daughter was to be made a Co-Queen or something like that, or even Brandon, that would have made a difference right there. However, clearly based on what we know Rhaegar did Lyanna, The North, his wife Elia and Dorn really wrong as well as Robert. His father amplified that.  He and his daddy doomed their house.

[Pikachu101]

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, if the Rickard Stark was to find out that his daughter was to be made a Co-Queen or something like that, or even Brandon, that would have made a difference right there. 

For the life of me I don't understand why Rhaegar didn't do that in the first place or even wait until he's king, Elia's going to be pissed but better an angry wife than a full scale rebellion of angry lords.

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

He and his daddy doomed their house.

That's why find it hilarious he's romanticised so much, the man's a moron 

[TMIFairy]

25 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

That's why find it hilarious he's romanticised so much, the man's a moron 

Yup. He has the "me wants, me takes" mentality which so endears the Ironborn to us ...

He paid the iron price for Lyanna, so why is anybody upset? A dragon does not care for the bleating of sheep ...

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

According to what exactly? Gerold Hightower was described as fiercely loyal, not honourable he didn't even condemn Brandon and Rickard's deaths, warning Jaime that it was not their place to judge Aerys. Oswell Whent was said to be a great swordsmen who assisted in Lyanna's kidnapping; again he was loyal to Rhaegar but that doesn't make him honourable.

The only one I have an issue with is Arthur, as a Dornishman it doesn't make sense for him to assist in Rhaegar dishonouring Elia. I guess we'll have to wait for TWoW or ADoS to find out what he was up to 

Well staying loyal to the King rather than slaying or turning coat on said King regardless of his actions requires a sense of honor in itself. 

We have some speculation, to say the least, whether or not there even was a kidnapping so using that to show any of them weren't honorable doesn't really work. I see what you are saying though & will concede it is possible they weren't honorable men at all. 

21 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Rhaegar planned on getting a baby out of Lyanna before anyone even knew she was kidnapped and childbirth is dangerous especially for a 15 year old girl,  if he truly wanted to insure her survival he would have had a maester at the ready. 

15 year olds have babies all the time with no issue, IRL & in Westeros. No reason to think the birth would be complicated. 

Who usually delivers a baby in westeros? I assume a maester sonce Luwin delivered Cats kids but there are just too many unknown circumstances to deduce that the KG or Rhaegar didn't care about Lyanna's life because there wasn't a maester present. I think we can all agree they cared about the life of the child, even if it was only to fulfill the prophecy yet there was no maester there. If no maester = they didn't care if Lyanna lived or died then no maester also has to = they didn't care if the baby lived or died which we know isn't true. 

If you buy into the fever dream not being the truth of the matter then possibly there was a maester there. I don't think so but maybe. 

22 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Because Lyanna hadn't given birth yet, they weren't going to abandon Rhaegar's baby but that doesn't mean they were planning on sticking around

But Lyanna had given birth. Ned arrives & finds Lyanna & the baby. Unless you think Lyanna was delivering as the sword fight was going on then Lyanna had given birth. 

 

15 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

He was right, Westeros is about to face an impending doom and only TPTWP can save them it's just the way he went about it that makes him so infuriatingly stupid. Surely if Lyanna had to be Visenya's mother then he could have arranged a marriage to her there was no need for an elaborate kidnapping, plus instead of letting Westeros collapse into a civil war when the prophecy states that they need to be a united front he should have waited until he overthrew Aerys. 

The man's a short sighted idiot 

Big parallels to Jon & the NW here I think. Apparently not communicating your reasons very well & making impulsive, albeit right, decisions is hereditary. 

[Pikachu101]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well staying loyal to the King rather than slaying or turning coat on said King regardless of his actions requires a sense of honor in itself.

That's called being dutiful, an honourable knight doesn't beat little girls but Joffrey's dutiful KG did that anyway

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

15 year olds have babies all the time with no issue, IRL & in Westeros. No reason to think the birth would be complicated. 

Actually they don't real life and Westeros have shown that girls having children is dangerous, in medieval England though noblewoman were married young most didn't have their first child until they were around 18. Even in the 21st Century mothers who are 15 and under are more likely to have complications. 

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If no maester = they didn't care if Lyanna lived or died then no maester also has to = they didn't care if the baby lived or died which we know isn't true. 

This has been under a lot of discussion; if Rhaegar was certain Aegon was the PTWP then why didn't he insure his protection? The most common agreement is that Rhaegar assumed they would live simply because they had to, this was a man who let the country collapse into civil war just so he could fulfil a prophecy so him assuming his kids don't need the KG because they'll be protected by supernatural forces isn't that hard to believe. 

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But Lyanna had given birth. Ned arrives & finds Lyanna & the baby. Unless you think Lyanna was delivering as the sword fight was going on then Lyanna had given birth. 

I think she was giving birth whilst they were fighting because Ned heard her scream and found her in a pool of blood, if she had given birth before his arrival there's no explanation as to why she's covered in blood.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Big parallels to Jon & the NW here I think. Apparently not communicating your reasons very well & making impulsive, albeit right, decisions is hereditary. 

There's a difference, Jon's 14 years old and is still learning from his mistakes. Rhaegar on the other hand is 23, he should have known better.