Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

[Pikachu101]

9 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

why didn't he name Rhaenys Visenya instead? Visenya was the eldest child, if this is what he was going with, then logically, the name he would have given his firstborn would have been Visenya.

Maybe he wasn't planning on recreating the trio until after Aegon was born? Or perhaps he knew Elia's daughter couldn't be a warrior like Visenya so named her Rhaenys accordingly, I genuinely believe Rhaegar never wanted the third head's mother to be Elia regardless of whether or not she could have one.

9 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

And then Kevan Lannister in the epilogue of ADWD says that if Cersei had married Rhaegar then she would have given him the sons he wanted. 

I think Kevan just assumed Rhaegar wanted sons because outside Dorne no one thinks much of daughters

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

On 25.10.2017 at 6:57 AM, Ygrain said:

The information that they were seven against three but only two lived to ride away comes from Ned's thoughts, not something he was telling anyone, so it's highly unlikely that he would lie to himself. Plus, GRRM was asked specifially if only two men left ToJ, and he confirmed that.

Yes, I know that and I don't believe Arthur is still alive. I referred to Pikachu101 idea that Arthur told Ned and what IMO the consequences would have been.

But there is one thing that makes me wonder if we really can trust Ned thoughts in that, one part of it was a dream under the impact of drugs, what is not always a 100% copie of the reality, and in the other he thought, quot: "...After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief..." (AGOT, Eddard I)

So... Who are They? Reed and...?

It could be someone boring like a random maester or a wet nurse. It would be very stuipd and irresponsible if there wasn't one or both. I don't think the KG know how to support birthing and taking care of a newborn. But where is that person now?

I don't think we can trust GRRM statments fully. Would he lie if this is part of the big mystery and he doesn't want to point a finger on it? I would.

And there is still the question how two men can bring down an entire tower...

 

[cgrav]

38 minutes ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

I don't think we can trust GRRM statments fully. Would he lie if this is part of the big mystery and he doesn't want to point a finger on it? I would.

Why bother lying? If he doesn't want to reveal something he doesn't have to answer the question. 

As for bringing down a tower... having done dry masonry myself, it's not that hard to destabilize a structure. You only need to remove a few key pieces to compromise the whole thing. Digging out from under a cornerstone or shattering one could be enough to make the whole thing topple.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

According to Meera, Howland can do all sorts of things;

Quote

He could breath mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear. The lad knew the magics of the crannogs, but wanted more.

It's not outside of the realm of possibilities that Howland Reed brought that tower down on his own. 

With regard to the KG. I always find it interesting that Rhaegar left all 3 kingsguard in Dorne, took 3 kingsguard with him to the Trident. I do think there are parallels that exist between Daeron I's death in the Prince's Pass and the fight at the ToJ.

About the three heads of the dragon, I'm rereading ADWD and I tend to not pay attention to the various religions which I should, but I don't, but I think this one might have been mentioned before on the boards and it's "Trios", the tower three turrets with the first head devouring the dead and the reborn emerging from the third. The middle head, the Sailor's Wife didn't know what it was. They have the same thing in Tyrosh. The three-headed dragon can easily be like the Seven who are one but with seven faces. 

As they say, anyway...

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/22/2017 at 10:22 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Ok, is the question Why did they have to fight at the Tower of Joy, or Why did they have to fight at the Tower of Joy?

Anyone care to answer my question?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Anyone care to answer my question?

I guess I figured if you read the thread it would be answered by its self but to clarify I was asking why there needed to be a fight at the tower of joy rather than a discussion or a truce of some sort being met - which is pretty clear in the OP also, so my apologies for not answering sooner. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Anyone care to answer my question?

I think the easiest answer is that the Kingsguard were fulfilling their vows and oaths. If they had bent the knee to Rhaegar and chose him as their king, thereby throwing their support behind him, then they are protecting his bloodline. 

Ned fighting could be him feeling compelled to eliminate the threat those 3 men pose for Robert and his very fragile reign. 

When Barristan was dismissed from the Kingsguard by Joffrey, Renly was hoping that he would turn up in his camp because he understood the weight the name Barristan the Bold carried. It would have afforded him more legitimacy. He was worried he'd end up with Stannis or Robb. Tywin was pissed by that Barristan was dismissed. 

If you have these three Kingsguard running around, free to do whatever they wanted to do, then Robert would never sit his throne easily. Arthur's name carried weight, Gerold Hightower is the lord commander, we don't know much about Oswell Whent but I'm thinking his name too meant something. Rhaegar's name carries weight now even though he's been dead for 18 years or so. I think for Ned those three had to die since they were never going to bend the knee.

ETA - Never mind. @Lyanna<3Rhaegar explained what the question was right below this post.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

45 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think the easiest answer is that the Kingsguard were fulfilling their vows and oaths. If they had bent the knee to Rhaegar and chose him as their king, thereby throwing their support behind him, then they are protecting his bloodline. 

Ned fighting could be him feeling compelled to eliminate the threat those 3 men pose for Robert and his very fragile reign. 

When Barristan was dismissed from the Kingsguard by Joffrey, Renly was hoping that he would turn up in his camp because he understood the weight the name Barristan the Bold carried. It would have afforded him more legitimacy. He was worried he'd end up with Stannis or Robb. Tywin was pissed by that Barristan was dismissed. 

If you have these three Kingsguard running around, free to do whatever they wanted to do, then Robert would never sit his throne easily. Arthur's name carried weight, Gerold Hightower is the lord commander, we don't know much about Oswell Whent but I'm thinking his name too meant something. Rhaegar's name carries weight now even though he's been dead for 18 years or so. I think for Ned those three had to die since they were never going to bend the knee.

Angel Eyes question was: is the thread asking the question why did they have to fight at the ToJ - I guess as opposed to somewhere else, or why did they have to fight at the ToJ - like why not communicate, negotiate, or call a truce. He/she was wondering which question the thread was asking, not the answer to: Why did they have to fight at the ToJ. If all that makes sense, I feel like I just rambled a bunch of nonsense

[Frey family reunion]

To the OP, because they were all out of gum?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

To the OP, because they were all out of gum?

You win the internet! 

/thread

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

On 18/10/2017 at 0:17 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Just to play devil's advocate, it may be that they were waiting for Lyanna to give birth before traveling, and she was in labor or had very recently given birth when Ned arrived.

But yeah I don't see any good reason for the fight if you take the story at face value.

And just to add to my original thought, it may be that they weren't just trying to vaguely fulfill prophecy by sacrificing Lyanna. They could have been trying to hatch dragons. After all, the Tragedy at Summerhall (where Rhaegar was born) was an attempt to hatch dragons, and Aemon was convinced by Dany's dragons that she was the PtwP. Lyanna certainly qualifies as having kingsblood in at least one sense (descended from the Kings of Winter), and Mel was always going on about hatching dragons from stone with a kingsblood sacrifice.

Could Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon be the eggs that were in the Tower of Joy? Maybe Rhaegar found the 3 eggs in the ruins of Summerhall. If I remember correctly, Aegon V took 7 dragons' eggs for the ritual in Summerhall right? Could it be that Rhaegar found 3 of the 7 eggs? Maybe Rhaegar would sacrifice Lyanna after the baby was born to hatch the eggs in a blood magic ritual. I also think R+L=D because it makes more sense to me and explains many things but it's just my opinion, of course.

 

Sorry for my english. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, Nina Dark Sister said:

Could Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon be the eggs that were in the Tower of Joy? Maybe Rhaegar found the 3 eggs in the ruins of Summerhall. If I remember correctly, Aegon V took 7 dragons' eggs for the ritual in Summerhall right? Could it be that Rhaegar found 3 of the 7 eggs? Maybe Rhaegar would sacrifice Lyanna after the baby was born to hatch the eggs in a blood magic ritual. I also think R+L=D because it makes more sense to me and explains many things but it's just my opinion, of course.

 

Sorry for my english. 

Certainly possible. I think it's very likely that if Rhaegar had some eggs to hatch at the ToJ he may have found them at Summerhall. Whether or not those are the 3 eggs that made it to Dany is another question. But I could see someone like Varys salvaging the eggs from the burned down ToJ in a similar manner and getting them to Illyrio.

[The Commentator]

So why did they have to fight at the tower of joy.  

It was inevitable and you only have to listen to the words of the White Bull. 

1. "Far way, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne"
2. "Our knees do not bend easily"

The KGs had the same choice as any other in the kingdom:  swear fealty to the usurper or die.  They chose to remain loyal to King Aerys II and they died fighting in his service.  It was a lost cause and they chose to go down with their King Aerys II, like any loyal royal bodyguard should do.  The heir is safely at Dragonstone and they could never hope to make it to him because the rebels have taken control of the ports.  They can bend their knees to the usurper or die.  That was their only choice.  I am sure they would have eventually found a way to Prince Viserys if they could but Ned caught them at the TOJ, the last Targaryen stronghold in the mainland.  

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was a lost cause and they chose to go down with their King Aerys II

But they never say anything along such lines, not to mention that the King had at least one known heir then and Queen Rhaella had her rights, too.

 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 like any loyal royal bodyguard should do.

That is unsupported by the text, though. We are told repeatedly that the KG are bound to protect the king even at the cost of their own lives. Nowhere does it say that they should die when he's dead.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The heir is safely at Dragonstone and they could never hope to make it to him because the rebels have taken control of the ports. 

Incorrect, the Dornish ports were freely accessible. Plus, the rebels couldn't hope to control every single fishing boat along the whole coast.

Besides, the vows do not pardon not going to the king because it's difficult, do they?

 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They can bend their knees to the usurper or die.  That was their only choice.

Or kill the Northmen, which they nearly managed. They were three legendary fighters, after all.

 

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

  I am sure they would have eventually found a way to Prince Viserys if they could but Ned caught them at the TOJ, the last Targaryen stronghold in the mainland

Except that their response to Ned's statement about Viserys at DS is "Kingsguard doesn't flee, then or now", as if they were given a choice to go Viserys - why else say "or now" if the option is nonexistent?

[Hodor the Articulate]

I've always thought the fight was weird, too. I guess the KG could have thought a Ned might harm the baby or give it away. His reputation honor likely wasn't as well known as it was in later years. Or it could be as simple as the the KG displaying their tendency to follow orders a tad to rigidly, plus a massive amount of miscommunication.

It's ridiculously frustrating that the one man who knows exactly what went down has not yet physically appeared yet. I'm going to be so pissed if Howland Reed dies before speaking to a Stark or a Targ.

On 10/25/2017 at 10:39 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But doesn't Rhaegar say in Dany's vision in tHotU something like 'there must be one more, the dragon must have 3 heads' while referring to the babe?

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

I think it's safe to assume vision!Rhaegar was speaking to Dany at that moment, and that it wasn't about Aegon or any of his children.

My personal interpretation is that everything from "he has a song" to "The dragon has three heads" was a vision. The segment feels disjointed from the rest of the scene and everything Rhaegar says in that moment is nonsense to all the characters there. I mean, why does he say "He has a song [...] his is the song of ice and fire" but then proceed to pick up his harp afterwards, anyway? Or for that matter, why is even talking about prophecy stuff in front of Elia? The common theory that Rhaegar was doing everything because prophecy is based almost entirely on a literal interpretation of this scene, and it's why I don't buy it.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The common theory that Rhaegar was doing everything because prophecy is based almost entirely on a literal interpretation of this scene, and it's why I don't buy it

It's good to know I'm not the only one who doesn't buy it. I feel like I'm on this tiny island by myself. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

17 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Certainly possible. I think it's very likely that if Rhaegar had some eggs to hatch at the ToJ he may have found them at Summerhall. Whether or not those are the 3 eggs that made it to Dany is another question. But I could see someone like Varys salvaging the eggs from the burned down ToJ in a similar manner and getting them to Illyrio.

Maybe Varys found out about Dany in Dorne and the house robbery with the red door was a smokescreen created by Varys to extract Dany from there and sent the eggs to Pentos with Illyrio. Maybe Dany came to Viserys as a suitor who knows. This would explain Dany's connection to the eggs and so Illyrio did not give the eggs to the Young Griff. Illyrio never bought those eggs. I believe that Rhaegar was the greatest puppet of the COF. 

[Crona]

The fight is very vague, I doubt that Lyanna would have complied with the kingsguard if they had killed her brother. The whole scenario doesn't make sense, and that's really the answer I can give.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 10/31/2017 at 2:06 PM, Ygrain said:

That is unsupported by the text, though. We are told repeatedly that the KG are bound to protect the king even at the cost of their own lives. Nowhere does it say that they should die when he's dead

Yes. And besides that we have some KG members who became KG to the next king so it definitely is not a necessity that they fight to the death even when all is lost. 

 

14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's ridiculously frustrating that the one man who knows exactly what went down has not yet physically appeared yet. I'm going to be so pissed if Howland Reed dies before speaking to a Stark or a Targ.

Me too! 

 

11 hours ago, Nina Dark Sister said:

Maybe Varys found out about Dany in Dorne and the house robbery with the red door was a smokescreen created by Varys to extract Dany from there and sent the eggs to Pentos with Illyrio. Maybe Dany came to Viserys as a suitor who knows. This would explain Dany's connection to the eggs and so Illyrio did not give the eggs to the Young Griff. Illyrio never bought those eggs. I believe that Rhaegar was the greatest puppet of the COF. 

Could you please explain the bolded part? 

Let's assume for a second the eggs did come from the ToJ. Why didn't they hatch there? What would have been different than when Dany successfully hatches them?

We have sacrifices & a fire which seem to be necessary. We have a Targaryen which I would assume is necessary. We don't have a "MMD" at the ToJ although Howland is said to be able to do some outlandish things. In Dany's hatching scene she seems to take particular care in how the pyre is built so that may be a difference. What else?

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Could you please explain the bolded part? 

Let's assume for a second the eggs did come from the ToJ. Why didn't they hatch there? What would have been different than when Dany successfully hatches them?

We have sacrifices & a fire which seem to be necessary. We have a Targaryen which I would assume is necessary. We don't have a "MMD" at the ToJ although Howland is said to be able to do some outlandish things. In Dany's hatching scene she seems to take particular care in how the pyre is built so that may be a difference. What else?

How the hell would I know if GRRM has not finished writing these books yet?