TheDrunkenGiant

House Strong

24 posts in this topic

Are they descended from the Riverlands hero Artos the Strong? It seems like they are all very large men and their name "Strong" is descriptive of their house traits. Lyonel Strong was a big man and a battler, Harwin "Breakbones" Strong was hulking and the strongest man of his day and likely Blood from the Blood and Cheese story. The robber knight "Giant of the Trident" was from the Riverlands and I suspect was a Strong. 

Since Qyburn had spent time at Harrenhal and likely had some intimate knowledge of House Strong, did he pick Robert Strong as a name for the reanimated Gregor Clegane because of the legacy of Artos the Strong and their was a tendency for Strongs to be giants and hulking and enormously strong? Of all the surnames Qyburn could have chosen it seems strange he picked one that had a well known history unless it served the narrative that Robert Strong was a formerly unknowm member of that family and that explained his size and strength away.

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8 minutes ago, TheDrunkenGiant said:

...unless it served the narrative that Robert Strong was a formerly unknowm member of that family and that explained his size and strength away.

Sounds good to me.

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34 minutes ago, TheDrunkenGiant said:

Are they descended from the Riverlands hero Artos the Strong? It seems like they are all very large men and their name "Strong" is descriptive of their house traits. Lyonel Strong was a big man and a battler, Harwin "Breakbones" Strong was hulking and the strongest man of his day and likely Blood from the Blood and Cheese story. The robber knight "Giant of the Trident" was from the Riverlands and I suspect was a Strong. 

Since Qyburn had spent time at Harrenhal and likely had some intimate knowledge of House Strong, did he pick Robert Strong as a name for the reanimated Gregor Clegane because of the legacy of Artos the Strong and their was a tendency for Strongs to be giants and hulking and enormously strong? Of all the surnames Qyburn could have chosen it seems strange he picked one that had a well known history unless it served the narrative that Robert Strong was a formerly unknowm member of that family and that explained his size and strength away.

Nice speculation...

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@TheDrunkenGiant Nice pick-ups. The Strongs are confirmed to have been around by the time of the Conquest, their name suggests they originally descend from the First Men, & the only other two examples of Artos come from the Starks & Flints, both FM houses. Many ancient houses were also formed by legendary figures, especially during the Age of Heroes. I also suspect that the Giant of the Trident was Strong-descended, whether male-line or female-line or bastard-line. It fits with his name, his location, & the dramatic potential with Ser Osmund as the Hand at the time. Perhaps he was even the knight who won the joust at Riverrun in 28AC. Definitely the house name points to their hereditary physicalities. Noble-born (to the Lord of Harrenhal no less) & likely with a strong (heh) frame, Larys most likely would've been a knight like his older brother Harwin if it weren't for his clubfoot (Prologue Pate notes the same for Mollander, whose father was probably only a hedge knight).

Ser Osmund certainly seems to me like a proto-Lyonel, something of a warrior-scholar. He oversaw the planning & construction of KL's city walls & gates with Grand Maester Gawen, as well as (presumably) commanding the royal forces in the two campaigns against Sargaso Saan in the Stepstones. Aegon I's other Hands seem to also been in the same sort of mould:

  • Orys Baratheon was his brother's main commander outside of Visenya & Rhaenys, successful during the Last Storm & the Vulture Hunt (I suspect he only had his own war-weakened Stormlanders in 4AC against full-strength Wyls & Yronwoods in the Boneway, without dragon support for some ineffable reason), plus clearly with some political knack with his effective rule of the Stormlands from Durrandon control.
  • Edmyn Tully led the Riverlander revolt against the Hoares for the Targaryens & whilst Aegon was dealing with Reach & Westerlands, probably commanded the local effort that drove the remaining ironborn out of the Riverlands. I believe his resignation as Hand was part-wise due to Quenton Qoherys being succeeded by his lecherous grandson to Harrenhal, where Tully's daughter was perhaps still at.
  • Alyn Stokeworth, with Visenya, oversaw the planning & initial construction of the Red Keep. Aenys retained him as Hand, despite telling Maegor they would rule the realm together & to wield Blackfyre in his service at their father's funeral (I believe Aenys named his brother as his Master of Laws, a position he may have even had himself). He was to lead royal forces & the royal fleet against Jonos Arryn, before Aenys changed his mind & sent him against Harren the Red instead, perhaps with too few men.

Yes, Qyburn seems to have chosen Strong for unGregor for those reasons exactly (plus, Robert probably for Robert Baratheon). I don't think Robert Strong was ever meant to have a fully traceable & legit lineage though, he could've previously been some sellsword who had claimed the name for himself. And his "oath" of silence helps to cover prying (along with his "fuck off" size & scariness). Quite clearly many rightly suspect that Robert Strong is actually Gregor Clegane. Nevertheless, it's possible that House Strong continued in some form beyond the Hour of the Wolf with Larys' execution - there was at least one lesser branch with Ser Simon & his grandsons (who may not have been at Harrenhal when Prince Aemond returned to it & had Vhagar light it up), plus Lyonel had at least two daughters (who were lady companions to Rhaenyra).

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8 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@TheDrunkenGiant Nice pick-ups. The Strongs are confirmed to have been around by the time of the Conquest, their name suggests they originally descend from the First Men, & the only other two examples of Artos come from the Starks & Flints, both FM houses. Many ancient houses were also formed by legendary figures, especially during the Age of Heroes. I also suspect that the Giant of the Trident was Strong-descended, whether male-line or female-line or bastard-line. It fits with his name, his location, & the dramatic potential with Ser Osmund as the Hand at the time. Perhaps he was even the knight who won the joust at Riverrun in 28AC. Definitely the house name points to their hereditary physicalities. Noble-born (to the Lord of Harrenhal no less) & likely with a strong (heh) frame, Larys most likely would've been a knight like his older brother Harwin if it weren't for his clubfoot (Prologue Pate notes the same for Mollander, whose father was probably only a hedge knight).

Ser Osmund certainly seems to me like a proto-Lyonel, something of a warrior-scholar. He oversaw the planning & construction of KL's city walls & gates with Grand Maester Gawen, as well as (presumably) commanding the royal forces in the two campaigns against Sargaso Saan in the Stepstones. Aegon I's other Hands seem to also been in the same sort of mould:

  • Orys Baratheon was his brother's main commander outside of Visenya & Rhaenys, successful during the Last Storm & the Vulture Hunt (I suspect he only had his own war-weakened Stormlanders in 4AC against full-strength Wyls & Yronwoods in the Boneway, without dragon support for some ineffable reason), plus clearly with some political knack with his effective rule of the Stormlands from Durrandon control.
  • Edmyn Tully led the Riverlander revolt against the Hoares for the Targaryens & whilst Aegon was dealing with Reach & Westerlands, probably commanded the local effort that drove the remaining ironborn out of the Riverlands. I believe his resignation as Hand was part-wise due to Quenton Qoherys being succeeded by his lecherous grandson to Harrenhal, where Tully's daughter was perhaps still at.
  • Alyn Stokeworth, with Visenya, oversaw the planning & initial construction of the Red Keep. Aenys retained him as Hand, despite telling Maegor they would rule the realm together & to wield Blackfyre in his service at their father's funeral (I believe Aenys named his brother as his Master of Laws, a position he may have even had himself). He was to lead royal forces & the royal fleet against Jonos Arryn, before Aenys changed his mind & sent him against Harren the Red instead, perhaps with too few men.

Yes, Qyburn seems to have chosen Strong for unGregor for those reasons exactly (plus, Robert probably for Robert Baratheon). I don't think Robert Strong was ever meant to have a fully traceable & legit lineage though, he could've previously been some sellsword who had claimed the name for himself. And his "oath" of silence helps to cover prying (along with his "fuck off" size & scariness). Quite clearly many rightly suspect that Robert Strong is actually Gregor Clegane. Nevertheless, it's possible that House Strong continued in some form beyond the Hour of the Wolf with Larys' execution - there was at least one lesser branch with Ser Simon & his grandsons (who may not have been at Harrenhal when Prince Aemond returned to it & had Vhagar light it up), plus Lyonel had at least two daughters (who were lady companions to Rhaenyra).

Thanks for the reply! I've often wondered if the Cleganes and Dunk might be descended from Strong bloodlines. Lucamore did his share to spread the bloodline around. 

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On 17/10/2017 at 2:58 AM, TheDrunkenGiant said:

Are they descended from the Riverlands hero Artos the Strong? It seems like they are all very large men and their name "Strong" is descriptive of their house traits. Lyonel Strong was a big man and a battler, Harwin "Breakbones" Strong was hulking and the strongest man of his day and likely Blood from the Blood and Cheese story. The robber knight "Giant of the Trident" was from the Riverlands and I suspect was a Strong. 

Since Qyburn had spent time at Harrenhal and likely had some intimate knowledge of House Strong, did he pick Robert Strong as a name for the reanimated Gregor Clegane because of the legacy of Artos the Strong and their was a tendency for Strongs to be giants and hulking and enormously strong? Of all the surnames Qyburn could have chosen it seems strange he picked one that had a well known history unless it served the narrative that Robert Strong was a formerly unknowm member of that family and that explained his size and strength away.

Nice. Think you are probably correct with most of this speculation. Harwin was not Blood though, he was dead before the Dance began. Or did you mean Blood was some Strong descendant?

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43 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Nice. Think you are probably correct with most of this speculation. Harwin was not Blood though, he was dead before the Dance began. Or did you mean Blood was some Strong descendant?

Yes I meant likely related to Blood. With Lucamore's proclivity to spread the Strong seed, I am thinking Blood might have descended from him.

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My first impression was that Qyburn named his creature Robert Strong in homage to Lucamore Strong, a member of the Kingsguard who had 16 bastards (same as Maggy the Frog's prediction for Robert B).  He was gelded and sent to the Night's Watch.  Robert Baratheon is often referred to as strong.   I don't think these references were lost on Cersei.

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My first impression was that Qyburn named his creature Robert Strong in homage to Lucamore Strong, a member of the Kingsguard who had 16 bastards (same as Maggy the Frog's prediction for Robert B).  He was gelded and sent to the Night's Watch.  Robert Baratheon is often referred to as strong.   I don't think these references were lost on Cersei.

That's possible but I think the name Strong is more likely an attempt to explain, albeit not very well where someone of that size mysteriously appeared after Gregor's "death". Qyburn's time as Maester at Harrenhal likely provided some study into House Strong and there likely may have been some old tomes or records from their times as the Lords of Harrenhal. They were likely a First Men family descened from a Riverlands hero Artos the Strong and the name is a descriptor of their family traits. We know Harwin "Breakbones" Strong was the Gregor Clegane of his day and Blood was likely a Strong, as was the Giant of the Trident based on knighthood and the location and timeframe. Given the sensitivity of Gregor's admissions and attempting to appease the Martell's, naming the new Kingsguard, Robert Strong gave some cover. Unlike Essos, where men can take whatever name they want, Surnames, especially those tied to Noble families in Westeros are more sacred. Of all the names, Qyburn could have picked, I would think the purpose of Strong was to establish a branch of the family still existed and like other families with dominant traits(Baratheons, big blue eyes and black hair). Since a number of Strongs had been giants of men and incredibly strong coupled with his tenure at Harrenhal, I think that is how he derived Robert Strong's name. He may have likely discovered at Harrenhal that the Cleganes and their size are descended from Strong bloodlines.

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Hmm... I wonder how Duncan and Denys Strong, two sergeants in the Golden Company might factor into this? 

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2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hmm... I wonder how Duncan and Denys Strong, two sergeants in the Golden Company might factor into this? 

They could be Strongs or they may have just taken the name because they like it which is customary on Essos.

Edited by TheDrunkenGiant

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Just now, TheDrunkenGiant said:

They could be Strongs or they may have just taken the name because they like it which is customary on Essos.

Wouldn't it be more interesting if they at least claim to have descended from House Strong? 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Wouldn't it be more interesting if they at least claim to have descended from House Strong? 

Definitely and that could play some role after the conflict depending on the success or failure of the Aegon and the Golden Company.

Edited by TheDrunkenGiant

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On 10/18/2017 at 1:10 AM, TheDrunkenGiant said:

Thanks for the reply! I've often wondered if the Cleganes and Dunk might be descended from Strong bloodlines. Lucamore did his share to spread the bloodline around. 

No worries & thanks likewise for the creating this topic. I could certainly see those being possibilities, especially wrt Lucamore's proximity for the latter at least (as well as Blood as you suggest) & of course, his lustiness. Lyonel & his sons are other possibilities, for the later characters anyway, particularly Harwin given what we know about him.

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7 hours ago, TheDrunkenGiant said:

They could be Strongs or they may have just taken the name because they like it which is customary on Essos.

Personally I think it'd be far more fitting if those exiles with traitors' names really are all descendants of those people. I've always liked the idea of House Blackfyre finally succeeding after so many failures, and having their numbers made up of the descendants of exiles makes it more impactful, plus it brings the main series tied in with the Dunk & Egg series.

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20 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally I think it'd be far more fitting if those exiles with traitors' names really are all descendants of those people. I've always liked the idea of House Blackfyre finally succeeding after so many failures, and having their numbers made up of the descendants of exiles makes it more impactful, plus it brings the main series tied in with the Dunk & Egg series.

I'm pretty sure we're only told that Larys's execution ended the main line of House Strong.

If so, there could easily be non-noble cadet branches who were afraid to take up their uncle's (or second cousin's or whatever) claim.* And whether they sat quietly in the Riverlands trying not to draw attention to themselves only to rise up when the Blackfyres did, or fled to Essos and ended up meeting up with Bittersteel only after he fled there too, Denys and Duncan could easily be their descendants.

The fun thing is that the only mentions of House Strong in the first four books are about the curse of Harrenhal. So, introducing a couple of Strongs could be setting up for Dany choosing to demonstrate her dragons on Harrenhal just like Aegon, right after the Strongs have retaken possession of it thanks to fAegon.

---

* Especially if Westerosi attainder works like early English attainder. A brother, nephew, cousin, etc. of an attainted traitor is never subject to punishment for "corruption of the blood"—unless he tries to claim the traitor's title, in which case he's insisting that he does have traitorous blood after all and can be considered automatically attainted.

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I somehow think the Strong's and Baratheon's are related and that the Kettleblacks are also a part of this family in some way.

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The Strongs seem to be an ancient house from the riverlands, the Baratheons are a rather new house from Dragonstone. I can not see the connection between them.

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The Baratheon's are a new house ??

 

Robert is 6'6" course black chest hair sounds alot like the Kettleblacks not to mention the Kettleblacks and Strong's all bare names the Baratheon's did over the years. 

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Yes, with their 300 years of existence the Baratheons are one of the youngest houses in Westeros.

The only time the Strongs might have been interesting enough for the Baratheons to intermarry with them was when they held Harrenhal, a period of around 40 years. So yeah, technically it might be possible. But then can also add the Crakehalls and Bulwers. 

And are the Kettleblacks actually a proper house?

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