Alex Gu

North industrilize

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How could the north be industrilize or economy grow after barenthon revolt to be rivals economically to other kingdoms and essos cities?

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Generally, the North is never going to compete with the southern kingdoms in a feudal economy, given how much more highly dispersed their population is, and how much more fertile the land is down south, so the only option is to try to leapfrog past them to a proto-mercantilist economy. This will mean reduced military power for a few generations during the transition, but the North is ridiculously easy to defend by land, so that shouldn't be a huge problem.

So, how do they do that?

I suspect the North has a near monopoly on fur pelts in the western world, but they're not the ones making all the money off the fur trade. If s, they can fix that the same way Novgorod did: bribe the best coatmakers in the world with anything they want to move to Winterfell, and now you're exporting finished goods instead of raw materials. Then, charter corporations to run the international fur trade out of White Harbor, instead of leaving it up to the Lord of White Harbor. Wyman Manderly will be against this idea for about three seconds, until you remind him that he owns all the ships and nobody's going to be starting such a corporation without his family as major partners.

The other big opportunity is the destruction Dany is about to wreak on the Essosi slave trade. Team up with Braavos to help Pentos and the Three Sisters adjust, and take in a whole lot of skilled former-slave refugees in whatever industries are most disrupted. Sure, Braavos is going to do even better off this partnership than the North, but it's not a zero-sum game; they'll both rise pretty high.

 

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7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Generally, the North is never going to compete with the southern kingdoms in a feudal economy, given how much more highly dispersed their population is, and how much more fertile the land is down south, so the only option is to try to leapfrog past them to a proto-mercantilist economy. This will mean reduced military power for a few generations during the transition, but the North is ridiculously easy to defend by land, so that shouldn't be a huge problem.

So, how do they do that?

I suspect the North has a near monopoly on fur pelts in the western world, but they're not the ones making all the money off the fur trade. If s, they can fix that the same way Novgorod did: bribe the best coatmakers in the world with anything they want to move to Winterfell, and now you're exporting finished goods instead of raw materials. Then, charter corporations to run the international fur trade out of White Harbor, instead of leaving it up to the Lord of White Harbor. Wyman Manderly will be against this idea for about three seconds, until you remind him that he owns all the ships and nobody's going to be starting such a corporation without his family as major partners.

The other big opportunity is the destruction Dany is about to wreak on the Essosi slave trade. Team up with Braavos to help Pentos and the Three Sisters adjust, and take in a whole lot of skilled former-slave refugees in whatever industries are most disrupted. Sure, Braavos is going to do even better off this partnership than the North, but it's not a zero-sum game; they'll both rise pretty high.

“The furs from the stormlands were well regarded, but the true riches of the rainwood were found in its timber and rare hardwoods.”

And from Essos:

“The Forest of Qohor also yields up furs and pelts of all kinds, many rare and fine and highly prized, as well as silver, tin, and amber. The vast forest has never been fully explored, according to the maps and scrolls at the Citadel, and it likely conceals many mysteries and wonders at its heart. Like many northerly forests, it contains elk and deer in great numbers, along with wolves, tree cats, boars of truly monstrous size, spotted bears, and even a species of lemur”

But the North should indeed do that. The raw materials they gather should be finished there in WH. The shipbuilding trade should be more prevalent too, but perhaps the proximity to Braavos prevents that.

Edited by Universal Sword Donor

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North can produce a lot of food so being isolated from rest of the world is not a problem for them, they have a huge territory and they have a lot of raw materials there, so war didn't change as much as it did in the South.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

If s, they can fix that the same way Novgorod did: bribe the best coatmakers in the world with anything they want to move to Winterfell, and now you're exporting finished goods instead of raw materials. Then, charter corporations to run the international fur trade out of White Harbor, instead of leaving it up to the Lord of White Harbor.

I think you could make similar moves with the Manderlys and imported professionals involving the silver trade, the minting of currency, and a variety of financial services.

You should be able to buy winter insurance from Merling Partners, White Harbor.

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In regards to a prospective fur trade, do we know how many kinds of animals are in the North and what their population is?

The Wolfswood is called so for a reason, but if hunted too much, that could easily lead to their extinction, which will not only ruin their prospective trade, but it will also mess up their ecosystem.

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17 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

In regards to a prospective fur trade, do we know how many kinds of animals are in the North and what their population is?

The Wolfswood is called so for a reason, but if hunted too much, that could easily lead to their extinction, which will not only ruin their prospective trade, but it will also mess up their ecosystem.

No

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The problem is that the mindset isn’t there to even initiate the change. They’ll do what they’ve always done because that’s the way they’ve always done it hence why they’ve stagnated for thousands of years.

The only characters that I’ve seen who may be able to break Westeros out of this thinking is LF (but he’s evil), Tyrion is clever enough but has no vision or goals, and Jon when he is coming up with ways to repay the Ironbank’s loan. Most importantly here is bringing in glassblowers (and other tradesmen), teaching themselves the skill and then expanding on that.

ADWD Jon VII

Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green and yellow glass would not work as well. What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy 'prentice glassblowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. That would be the way to go about it. If we had the gold. Which we do not.

This mind-set of preoccupation on tradition and doing-it-the-way-we've-always-done-it will have to start to break down if Westeros is ever to begin to transition into a late-medieval/early renaissance-type period.

Edited by Lollygag

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On 10/17/2017 at 6:13 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

The shipbuilding trade should be more prevalent too, but perhaps the proximity to Braavos prevents that.

In the future, it should be. But in the short run, they can't compete with Braavos, and they run the risk of starting a trade war that could be very damaging (and more damaging to them than to Braavos) if they try.

On 10/17/2017 at 4:48 PM, Lollygag said:

The problem is that the mindset isn’t there to even initiate the change. They’ll do what they’ve always done because that’s the way they’ve always done it hence why they’ve stagnated for thousands of years.

Yes, agreed. 

And there's also the self-reinforcing nature of the political structure. Almost any change you make means at least a short-term drop in military power, and few lords anywhere along the chain can afford that within a feudal system.

Anyway, the series of massive crises bearing down on them could be enough to shake them out of the status quo into something different, but it probably won't be a pleasant transition, or well-planned one.

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On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:03 AM, Alex Gu said:

How could the north be industrilize or economy grow after barenthon revolt to be rivals economically to other kingdoms and essos cities?

They would have to start damming up rivers, mining ore and stone and cutting down trees on a massive scale, which is a non-starter in the north because all of these things are inhabited by the old gods.

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The stagnation of development in general is a big hole in this series. (Not blaming GRRM; you can only do so much). After 8000 years, Westeros should be a highly advanced world. I know the lack of Capitalism does restrict innovation but still.... Society and technology seem to have been at a stalemate for THOUSANDS of years. Think about that. I know in our own history there have been periods where society moved backwards (Dark Ages). But at the very least you would think every major river or pass would have sprawling settlements formed around it throughout the years. 

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I know I didn't really address the OP (and for that I do apologize). That was just something I had to get off my chest. 

Edited by Foot_Of_The_King

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