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Jonsa


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46 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, she rarely thinks of Jon. She thinks of Sandor's cloak more than Jon. And LOL that Jon is tall. Nope.

There is a guy she hits all of the tall, strong, protect, cloak, kiss, and much more notes with, however.

Yeah, she runs right into him! :lol: And one by one he takes on everything she's been thinking about.

Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me...

Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could...

Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian...

Then he has Sansa run straight into Sandor:

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall.

And one by one, Sandor takes on each:

"You like knights, don't you?... True knights..."

"A dog can smell a lie, you know."

"I never got my song... Florian and Jonquil?"

How many characters can say it their love is "sent" by the gods? ;)

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If we are spitballing, me too for a few reasons, especially since it seems there is a possibility that  all Targs we have in the story came from a possible unofficially recognized second wife Rhaenys= they are all bastards. But in the end George may have some other "legit" process up his tie-dyed sleeve. 

Don't forget about the rumors about Rhaenys and her fondness of bards, which makes the entire dynasty bastard post Aegon. Or maynbe not, considering the Velaryon marriages.

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3 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

You never know. 

 

 

Yeaa, but I doubt it. There's nothing in the books to suggest a sexual relationship between the two, NONE. And whatever the book reveal turns out to be, I'm willing to bet Jon would still thinkk of Sansa as his sister, and vice versa. What exactly is this foreshadowing, that points to a sexual relationship developing between the two?

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If they do get together I think it’d indicate pretty bad things about the direction of their characters. Incest and incest overtones are consistently used as markers for backwards/self-centered/inverted/narcissistic/power-hungry/blind/Game of Thrones type thinking.

Just found another one the other day. Wyman Manderly offered to marry his first cousin in a power-play for Hornwood. The Manderlys were exiled from the Reach for power grabbing.

If we do get Jonsa, I suspect it would be because they’ve become not necessarily bad or evil, but certainly off-track. Think the Wrong Way Starks. Maybe it sets up a conflict between Jonsa as the two older Starks raised in Westeros’ rancid feudal system vs Bran, Arya & Rickon who are the Starks raised more in the Wild?

Bran's climbing against orders, and well, just Arya and Rickon, all showed rejected of at least some aspects of their feudal system upbringings.

 

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21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If they do get together I think it’d indicate pretty bad things about the direction of their characters. Incest and incest overtones are consistently used as markers for backwards/self-centered/inverted/narcissistic/power-hungry/blind/Game of Thrones type thinking.

Just found another one the other day. Wyman Manderly offered to marry his first cousin in a power-play for Hornwood. The Manderlys were exiled from the Reach for power grabbing.

If we do get Jonsa, I suspect it would be because they’ve become not necessarily bad or evil, but certainly off-track. Think the Wrong Way Starks. Maybe it sets up a conflict between Jonsa as the two older Starks raised in Westeros’ rancid feudal system vs Bran, Arya & Rickon who are the Starks raised more in the Wild?

Bran's climbing against orders, and well, just Arya and Rickon, all showed rejected of at least some aspects of their feudal system upbringings.

They're cousins, not siblings and it was GRRM's original plan. It's not narcissistic because they look nothing alike, it's not "power hungry" because it's not a favorable political union during the war, it's not blind because it's not accidental incest, they have different surnames too, it's not Joanna-Tywin situation, two different houses. 

I agree with you to some extent (incest and negative connotations) but context is everything:

Cousin-Cousin: For how advantageous these unions can be for keeping family alliances or property within the family, these are still fairly rare. No one bats an eye at the presence of these unions, but you’ll notice that successive cousin-cousin marriages throughout generations is rare or non-existent. If a family decided on marrying cousin-to-cousin for successive generations, I’m betting that Westeros would come to see that as incest because over successive generations, not enough new bloodlines were being introduced. These unions are ok, but only if they're only sporadic.

44 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

We'll just have to wait and see.

Yep, I'm open to all possibilities so we'll just have to wait and see. ^_^

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18 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

They're cousins, not siblings and it was GRRM's original plan. It's not narcissistic because they look nothing alike, it's not "power hungry" because it's not a favorable political union during the war, it's not blind because it's not accidental incest, they have different surnames too, it's not Joanna-Tywin situation, two different houses. 

I agree with you to some extent (incest and negative connotations) but context is everything:

If you're going with the original plan, that's fine, but I'm not so it doesn't have much if any weight with me for reasons you've probably heard from others. One of the reasons why the original outline holds little weight with me is that it's largely missing the themes and messages which are so prevalent in the books which were actually written.

When I used the list with the slashes, I didn't mean all of those applied to every situation. I believe that GRRM is exploring various aspects of Game of Thrones thinking, some malicious (Cersei) and some more innocent (Jaime who just never thinks or takes anything seriously). In Jaime we someone who can fall into accidentally into the Game and perpetuate it without the intent but still some very bad things came of it regardless. As soon as he begins thinking for himself and taking things more seriously, he gravitates away from Cersei towards Brienne.

As to what aspect of Game of Thrones thinking a Jonsa might fit into? I don't know because it hasn't been written. But it is being applied to first cousin marriages, so I'm using past behavior as a predictor of future behavior and going with any future first cousin marriages will explore incest as inward thinking like the past ones.

18 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Cousin-Cousin: For how advantageous these unions can be for keeping family alliances or property within the family, these are still fairly rare. No one bats an eye at the presence of these unions, but you’ll notice that successive cousin-cousin marriages throughout generations is rare or non-existent. If a family decided on marrying cousin-to-cousin for successive generations, I’m betting that Westeros would come to see that as incest because over successive generations, not enough new bloodlines were being introduced. These unions are ok, but only if they're only sporadic.

When I wrote this, I speaking on how the Westerosi view the marriages (basically that incest is a sliding scale dependent also upon previous and future unions, not the black white thing which most try to force it into). I wasn't discussing how they would be treated thematically or symbolically by the writer.

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15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If you're going with the original plan, that's fine, but I'm not so it doesn't have much if any weight with me for reason you've probably heard from others. One of the reasons why the original outline holds little weight with me is that it's missing the themes and messages which are so prevalent in the books which were actually written.

When I used the list with the slashes, I didn't mean all of those applied to every situation. I believe that GRRM is exploring various aspects of Game of Thrones thinking, some malicious (Cersei) and some more innocent (Jaime who just never thinks or takes anything seriously). In Jaime we someone who can fall into accidentally into the Game and perpetuate it without the intent but still some very bad things came of it regardless. As soon as he begins thinking for himself and taking things more seriously, he gravitates away from Cersei towards Brienne.

As to what aspect of Game of Thrones thinking a Jonsa might fit into? I don't know because it hasn't been written. But it is being applied to first cousin marriages, so I'm using past behavior as a predictor of future behavior and going with any future first cousin marriages will explore incest as inward thinking like the past ones.

When I wrote this, I speaking on how the Westerosi view the marriages (basically that incest is a sliding scale dependent also upon previous and future unions, not the black white thing which most try to force it into). I wasn't discussing how they would be treated thematically or symbolically by the writer.

Negative consequences? Yes but not necessarily a toxic or negative union, which is what I thought you were implying.

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25 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Negative consequences? Yes but not necessarily a toxic or negative union, which is what I thought you were implying.

Truth be told, I've not thought on that aspect much. When I want a romance, I go as far away from ASOIAF as possible because I just have the feeling that it's only a matter of time before GRRM comes along and crushes it like Gregor crushed Oberyn's head.

And there's just not enough Pepto in the world for me to fully process the romantic implications of all of the incest and incest overtoned "situations" in this series.

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Jonsa is more of a show thing because there's no Harry the Heir or Young Griff for Sansa to end up with. Same goes for Jon, you either ship him with the cousin he was brought up to believe is his sister or his paternal aunt; Jon/Dany is incest but cousin marriages aren't (Westeroisi and our history is full of cousin marriages) so Jonsa is the better option.

But book wise no there's 0 indication of George ever going down that route, Jon has Val and Sansa is the shipping bicycle of Westeros. 

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Jonsa is more of a show thing because there's no Harry the Heir or Young Griff for Sansa to end up with. Same goes for Jon, you either ship him with the cousin he was brought up to believe is his sister or his paternal aunt; Jon/Dany is incest but cousin marriages aren't (Westeroisi and our history is full of cousin marriages) so Jonsa is the better option.

But book wise no there's 0 indication of George ever going down that route, Jon has Val and Sansa is the shipping bicycle of Westeros. 

Wasn't George's original plan involved an Arya/Jon marriage which he scrapped later on because of their siblingly love? Jon and Sansa shared no such love towards each other and learning they are cousins may ease the idea of a political marriage. Emphasis on the political, which was likely the reason their grandpa Rick married his cousin, to merge the branches and solidify his claim. After all, two generations or so ago there were numerous claimants and their descendants likely live scattered around the North and some other regions.

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26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wasn't George's original plan involved an Arya/Jon marriage which he scrapped later on because of their siblingly love? Jon and Sansa shared no such love towards each other and learning they are cousins may ease the idea of a political marriage. Emphasis on the political, which was likely the reason their grandpa Rick married his cousin, to merge the branches and solidify his claim. After all, two generations or so ago there were numerous claimants and their descendants likely live scattered around the North and some other regions.

And yet they're not talked about. Rickard seems to be an only child.

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2 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

Jon will marry Sansa I feel it in my bones. :-)

 

I pity your bones ... :P

My bones feel that Jon will sooner cut it off than stick it in a woman he considers to be his sister.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon and Sansa shared no such love towards each other and learning they are cousins may ease the idea of a political marriage.

What political advantage would that be? Besides Jon's part of the Night's Watch so he can't marry anyway.

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

What political advantage would that be? Besides Jon's part of the Night's Watch so he can't marry anyway.

If Jon becomes King in the North, and he wants to solidify his control of the North and perhaps develop an alliance with the Vale, Sansa might be a good choice as queen. Some readers believe that by killing Jon, his brothers released him from his vows. But the tale of seventy-nine (shouldn't that be nine and seventy?) sentinels suggests that if you desert in life, your watch will not end in death. 

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The fact that Sansa is suppose to look a great deal like Catelyn Stark might bother Jon. Every time he looks at Sansa he'll see the woman who was disgusted by his very existence.

On the other hand there is Arya who is said to look a great deal like Jon's real mother. The woman he dreamed and fantasized about holding him and kissing his boo-boo's.

Then there is his Aunt Daenerys who is almost as beautiful as his real father that he has no idea he is related too. 

Finally there is Val of the Northern Free Folk. She is strong, trustworthy, incredibly beautiful and regal. She is also the only one of the four who is in the same location as Jon.

 

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