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1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

There are many reasons why some people would rather support Arya/Jon instead of Sansa/Jon.

People should support neither, they were raised as siblings.

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

It was introduced as a possibility in the outline.

George also planned a trilogy and Sansa choosing Joffrey over her family, thankfully none of this happened.

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Jon and Arya love each other and think of each other a lot. 

Yes because they're siblings 

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Thus if Jon does choose to marry one of his sisters, Arya/Jon is 1000000x likelier than Sansa/Jon.

Why would Jon want to marry one of his sisters???

I think you've mistaken me for a Jonsa shipper, well I'm not and the reason why I said Arya/Jon is worse than Jonsa is because Arya actually sees Jon as her brother unlike Sansa who only started acknowledging him when she herself became a bastard. 

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4 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

How is Dany Lyanna's daughter? 

Born about nine months after Jon, Lyanna died in after her birth.

Why do I think that? It probably deserves a lot more explanation, but a few quick reasons:

The inconsistencies of Danny's memories. The Lemon tree, carved wooden beams, and grass associated with the House with the red door do not fit in Braavos. The story told by Viserys of a midnight flight to Dragonstone doesn't fit with Jaime's memory of them leaving in the morning or the green sail she remembers sailing into Braavos under. See Willem's soft hands may not match with his being a master of arms, and his sickly hot illness, doesn't match with our depiction of Aemon's illness in Braavos.

Dany is told repeatedly to literally remember who she is.

Lyanna disappeared for about two years during Robert's Rebellion, far longer than a single pregnancy. However, if she first conceived at the Touney of Harrenhall, then the time until the Tower of Joy is almost exactly the same as Elia's two pregnancies.

Ned only thinks of "broken" promises after he learns it's too late to stop the assassin from being sent after Dany. An issue he fought with Robert over, just like Rheagar's other children.

 Dany recognizes Rheagar in her vision (not Aerys) and sees herself in his armor... not to mention the "song of fire and ice" is said to her by Rhaegar when talking about how there must be one more.

Dany sees a giant wolf in MMD's tent. Dany is a natural gifted rider just like Lyanna, and jumps her Silver (grey and white horse, stark colors) on her first ride. She gets "cold" with anger at the wine seller assassin. In her dragon dream she is afraid of "howling" alone in the darkness, like a lone wolf not a dragon.

Anyway there is more, and people will poo-poo the idea, but I think there is too much there to ignor.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Born about nine months after Jon, Lyanna died in after her birth.

Why do I think that? It probably deserves a lot more explanation, but a few quick reasons:

The inconsistencies of Danny's memories. The Lemon tree, carved wooden beams, and grass associated with the House with the red door do not fit in Braavos. The story told by Viserys of a midnight flight to Dragonstone doesn't fit with Jaime's memory of them leaving in the morning or the green sail she remembers sailing into Braavos under. See Willem's soft hands may not match with his being a master of arms, and his sickly hot illness, doesn't match with our depiction of Aemon's illness in Braavos.

Dany is told repeatedly to literally remember who she is.

Lyanna disappeared for about two years during Robert's Rebellion, far longer than a single pregnancy. However, if she first conceived at the Touney of Harrenhall, then the time until the Tower of Joy is almost exactly the same as Elia's two pregnancies.

Ned only thinks of "broken" promises after he learns it's too late to stop the assassin from being sent after Dany. An issue he fought with Robert over, just like Rheagar's other children.

 Dany recognizes Rheagar in her vision (not Aerys) and sees herself in his armor... not to mention the "song of fire and ice" is said to her by Rhaegar when talking about how there must be one more.

Dany sees a giant wolf in MMD's tent. Dany is a natural gifted rider just like Lyanna, and jumps her Silver (grey and white horse, stark colors) on her first ride. She gets "cold" with anger at the wine seller assassin. In her dragon dream she is afraid of "howling" alone in the darkness, like a lone wolf not a dragon.

Anyway there is more, and people will poo-poo the idea, but I think there is too much there to ignor.

I too think it is very much possible that Lyanna had two pregnancies but I don't think Dany is anyone other than who she's told. One simple reason if not for anything else; Why? Why if she's the daughter of Neddard/Brandon/Rhaegar and Ashara/Lyanna, she's told that she is the sister of Viserys and Rhaegar, daughter of Jahaerys and Rhaella? Jon I can understand, he is with Ned and people can't know for his safety but Danaerys? She is constantly on the run and in fear of her life for being a Targaryen anyway so why not just tell her she is the daughter of Ned and Lyanna or whatever. Not knowing doesn't bring her any benefits and knowing may just get her (and Viserys) some. At the very least they can declare her R+L and this would force Ned to aid them or may sour Ned and Bob's relations. No logic in keeping it a secret at all.

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33 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I too think it is very much possible that Lyanna had two pregnancies but I don't think Dany is anyone other than who she's told. One simple reason if not for anything else; Why? Why if she's the daughter of Neddard/Brandon/Rhaegar and Ashara/Lyanna, she's told that she is the sister of Viserys and Rhaegar, daughter of Jahaerys and Rhaella? Jon I can understand, he is with Ned and people can't know for his safety but Danaerys? She is constantly on the run and in fear of her life for being a Targaryen anyway so why not just tell her she is the daughter of Ned and Lyanna or whatever. Not knowing doesn't bring her any benefits and knowing may just get her (and Viserys) some. At the very least they can declare her R+L and this would force Ned to aid them or may sour Ned and Bob's relations. No logic in keeping it a secret at all.

A few reasons one might have for why... Ned clearly couldn't raise a silver haired and purple eyed girl as his own... it depends on who you believe is behind the plot...

Also, it's important to point out that Dany was explicitly not running for her life, this is a lie she was told, the first assassin is sent by Robert during A Game of Thrones,  who she responds to with cold anger, there were no knives chasing her around the continent as a child, we know that was a lie.

Viserys - It could be argued that a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna comes before him in the order of succession.

Illyrio/Varys - If the plan is to put (f)Aegon on the throne, both viserys and dany are in the way and best disposed of by sending them into the Dothraki sea never to return (oops). Potentially gaining a barbarian horde and removing troublesome Targs who stand in Young Griff's way.

Dorne - Rheagar having any children with someone other than Elia is a huge insult... but they don't harm children in Dorne, per Doran. And the marriage pact with Viserys leaves Dany out, this dovetails with Visery's interest in the order of succession.

 

but these are just a few idea's off the top of my head...

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15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

A few reasons one might have for why... Ned clearly couldn't raise a silver haired and purple eyed girl as his own... it depends on who you believe is behind the plot...

Also, it's important to point out that Dany was explicitly not running for her life, this is a lie she was told, the first assassin is sent by Robert during A Game of Thrones,  who she responds to with cold anger, there were no knives chasing her around the continent as a child, we know that was a lie.

Viserys - It could be argued that a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna comes before him in the order of succession.

Illyrio/Varys - If the plan is to put (f)Aegon on the throne, both viserys and dany are in the way and best disposed of by sending them into the Dothraki sea never to return (oops). Potentially gaining a barbarian horde and removing troublesome Targs who stand in Young Griff's way.

Dorne - Rheagar having any children with someone other than Elia is a huge insult... but they don't harm children in Dorne, per Doran. And the marriage pact with Viserys leaves Dany out, this dovetails with Visery's interest in the order of succession.

 

but these are just a few idea's off the top of my head...

Ned can't raising her as his own is not a reason for not telling her who she is. It is just a reason for Ned not raising her.

We as the readers know there weren't any assassins chasing them around but Viserys clearly didn't have the healthiest of minds and it is more likely he was just paranoid and perhaps he took something Ser Darry said more seriously than he should than he's lying to Dany.

On order of succession a son/daughter comes before an uncle, a bastard comes last. If Danaerys was Rhaegar's daughter she would be a bastard. Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, with no witnesses she can easily be declared a bastard. Making her Rhaella and Aerys' daughter however, actually puts her above Jon in line of succession.

Clearing the path for (f)Aegon I like but still no reason to tell the lie and it's better to marry Danaerys to him either as the daughter of R+L or as R+A solidifies his claim, someone who was supposedly killed as a baby and may just be called out as some Lyseni imposter.

Doran tries to marry his son off to Danaerys and sends him and his friends on a suicide mission for this. He is either not in the know or is the ultimate deceiver he manages to deceive hisself.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned can't raising her as his own is not a reason for not telling her who she is. It is just a reason for Ned not raising her.

True, I just thought it was worth mentioning.

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We as the readers know there weren't any assassins chasing them around but Viserys clearly didn't have the healthiest of minds and it is more likely he was just paranoid and perhaps he took something Ser Darry said more seriously than he should than he's lying to Dany.

Maybe, Dany never remembers Viserys at the house with the red door, so I'm suggesting that her Willem of memory likely isn't Willem Darry. A grey bear with soft hands might well describe a Maester. Or there is William Dustin, of the red station, who went to the Tower of Joy but whose bones never came home.

But somehow Dany knows that Rhaegar died for he woman he loved, which clearly isn't about Elia. It is also a version of the story that doesn't seem widely told.

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On order of succession a son/daughter comes before an uncle, a bastard comes last. If Danaerys was Rhaegar's daughter she would be a bastard. Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, with no witnesses she can easily be declared a bastard. Making her Rhaella and Aerys' daughter however, actually puts her above Jon in line of succession.

No, a child of Rhaegar would come before his younger sibling... clearly we can't speak to the legitimacy of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna. But it's not that crazy to think they had some sort of ceremony... but actual succession is always going to be messy and unclear after a revolution and exile. 

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Clearing the path for (f)Aegon I like but still no reason to tell the lie and it's better to marry Danaerys to him either as the daughter of R+L or as R+A solidifies his claim, someone who was supposedly killed as a baby and may just be called out as some Lyseni imposter.

Only if you don't mind having a Targaryen back on the throne. If you have an age old blood feud with the family, you'd rather not marry back into them...

Both Illyrio/Varys and Dorne may have had reason to get rid of Dany but not wanted to kill/harm a child (and/or kin).

Of course one event changed everything, the birth of dragons.

Because frankly all the legitimacy, marriage ceremonies, laws of inheritance, and the rest are sort of irrelevant once she has the only three dragons in the known world. That's the same claim Aegon the Conquerer used to unify the seven kingdoms.

 All of a sudden she is worth way more as a bride then before, when it made totall sense to try and marry her off for an army.

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Doran tries to marry his son off to Danaerys and sends him and his friends on a suicide mission for this. He is either not in the know or is the ultimate deceiver he manages to deceive hisself.

Dragons... Doran sends his son after his hearts desire, vengeance, fire and blood, dragons... Dany just happens to have them. 

Everyones plans had to change once Dany emerges from the Dothraki sea with Dragons...

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

True, I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Maybe, Dany never remembers Viserys at the house with the red door, so I'm suggesting that her Willem of memory likely isn't Willem Darry. A grey bear with soft hands might well describe a Maester.

 

 

Dany also remembers how servants were afraid of that grey bear of a hand with soft leathery mans.

 

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No, a child of Rhaegar would come before his younger sibling... clearly we can't speak to the legitimacy of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna. But it's not that crazy to think they had some sort of ceremony... but actual succession is always going to be messy and unclear after a revolution and exile. 

If the said child is a bastard then no. And as I said, he may or may not have married  Lyanna. With no one there to witness then it can not be proven. I am all for Rhaegar married Lyanna and very likely his kingsman buddies stood there as witnesses in the ceremony but since Ned's seven ousted the Dragon's three there are no witnesses of that left.

On a side not I find it pretty funny that it is the Old Gods' men that overthrow the rule of the three headed dragon and install the seven pointed star.

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Only if you don't mind having a Targaryen back on the throne. If you have an age old blood feud with the family, you'd rather not marry back into them...

But they are installing their claimant as A TARGARYEN anyway so it changes nothing. We may speak of blood and geneology and stuff but it still changes nothing since Blackfyres are a Targaryen cadet so still no difference there.

Again a side note, why just not introduce Aegon as a Blackfyre anyway? He is supported by the company that was founded by Blackfyres and supported them on all their Rebellions and people don't find it odd that traditional Blackfyre supporter now supports the claim of a supposedly long dead now found exile princeling/king?

 

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Of course one event changed everything, the birth of dragons.

Because frankly all the legitimacy, marriage ceremonies, laws of inheritance, and the rest are sort of irrelevant once she has the only three dragons in the known world. That's the same claim Aegon the Conquerer used to unify the seven kingdoms.

 All of a sudden she is worth way more as a bride then before, when it made totall sense to try and marry her off for an army.

Dragons... Doran sends his son after his hearts desire, vengeance, fire and blood, dragons... Dany just happens to have them. 

Everyones plans had to change once Dany emerges from the Dothraki sea with Dragons...

Yes birth of dragons changed a lot but Danaerys was a worthy bride for Aegon before that. Obviously your supposed Aunt bringing 40k of the best horse there is to support your claim is a huge pro but if you are thought to be long dead male member of a traditionally incestous family that marries nephew/niece to aunt/uncle when no eligible siblings are around and you just happen to have a female confirmed to be a member of this family and is supposedly your aunt then marrying her yourself is better so you can sort of prove your claim in the eyes of the lords.

I'm thinking (f)Aegon was either Varys and Illyrio's plan B that they activated because Viserys decided to get crowned elsewhere or they planned to get rid of Drogo after he helped win the throne. It may just be both as even with little amount of read time he gets, (f)Aegon is near as impulsive as Viserys was.

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38 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dany also remembers how servants were afraid of that grey bear of a hand with soft leathery mans.

True true, if you prefer another option... what happened to Willem's four loyal men? And besides Ned and Howland (who returned) how many men fought the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? I'm just suggesting possibilities, clearly haven't found any proof.

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If the said child is a bastard then no. And as I said, he may or may not have married  Lyanna. With no one there to witness then it can not be proven. I am all for Rhaegar married Lyanna and very likely his kingsman buddies stood there as witnesses in the ceremony but since Ned's seven ousted the Dragon's three there are no witnesses of that left.

What about whoever was at the ToJ to help Lyanna give birth? I doubt the Sword of the Morning doubled as a midwife, but a maester or maid or something makes sense... Couldn't Howland Reed be aware? And finally, even if R+L weren't married, Rhaegar could legitimize his children or even leave a will.

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On a side not I find it pretty funny that it is the Old Gods' men that overthrow the rule of the three headed dragon and install the seven pointed star.

I mean the Baratheons began as a bastard cadet branch of the Targaryens so meh...

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But they are installing their claimant as A TARGARYEN anyway so it changes nothing. We may speak of blood and geneology and stuff but it still changes nothing since Blackfyres are a Targaryen cadet so still no difference there.

Ya the people involved might care a lot about the difference... look how pissed Viserys was about his exile, any blackfyre would now be several generations into exile, seems like a grudge might be expected. Also, Bloodraven might care a lot.

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Again a side note, why just not introduce Aegon as a Blackfyre anyway? He is supported by the company that was founded by Blackfyres and supported them on all their Rebellions and people don't find it odd that traditional Blackfyre supporter now supports the claim of a supposedly long dead now found exile princeling/king?

The blackfyres supposedly had the male line end... but even so, with any actual Targaryens around they are going to have trouble with their claim. In practice, it seems like there might be a lot more loyalty and support in westeros for a Targ than a Blackfyre.

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Yes birth of dragons changed a lot but Danaerys was a worthy bride for Aegon before that.

Why? Before that she had no wealth, no army, no power, and brought nothing but her name to the table... A name that the whole world doesn't doubt exactly because she was toured around the world on the false pretense of running from the usurpers knives. This lie allowed someone (Illyrio?) to present Dany as "Stormborn" at many courts around Essos to establish her identity.

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Obviously your supposed Aunt bringing 40k of the best horse there is to support your claim is a huge pro but if you are thought to be long dead male member of a traditionally incestous family that marries nephew/niece to aunt/uncle when no eligible siblings are around and you just happen to have a female confirmed to be a member of this family and is supposedly your aunt then marrying her yourself is better so you can sort of prove your claim in the eyes of the lords.

I think the plan was to marry Dany off in hopes of getting those dothraki screamers to support Aegon (I don't think Illyrio even really wanted Viserys to survive). But you can't plan to marry her to Drogo and Aegon... once she had dragons and dothraki and drogo was dead it's clearly a different equation.

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I'm thinking (f)Aegon was either Varys and Illyrio's plan B that they activated because Viserys decided to get crowned elsewhere or they planned to get rid of Drogo after he helped win the throne. It may just be both as even with little amount of read time he gets, (f)Aegon is near as impulsive as Viserys was.

I think Illyrio raised Aegon to be a king not a plan b, and he never intended Viserys to survive. 

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I just... I can't understand this ship. They may be cousins biologically, but they are siblings in every way that counts. They were raised as siblings. They see each other as siblings. They love each other as siblings. Does anyone really think that will ever change even when/if R+L is revealed?

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27 minutes ago, Daenys, the Dreamer said:

I just... I can't understand this ship. They may be cousins biologically, but they are siblings in every way that counts. They were raised as siblings. They see each other as siblings. They love each other as siblings. Does anyone really think that will ever change even when/if R+L is revealed?

Thank you! 

Jon and Sansa will only ever see each other as siblings, R+L=J means nothing and I bet you anything Jon will still see himself as the son of Eddard Stark regardless of his true paternity. 

3 hours ago, Serafina said:

Besides, don't the Northerners vehemently condemn incestuous relationships ?

I think incest is solely brother/sister, the first Sansa was married to her paternal uncle and Lyarra was Brandon’s first cousin once removed; neither of those were seen as incest even though technically Sansa/Jonnel was. Jon and Sansa may be cousins but they were raised as siblings, so as far as I’m concerned it is incest. 

Why do we need Jonsa anyway? Why push for a relationship riddled with incest and taboo when instead Jon can be with Val whilst Sansa gets Harry or Aegon. 

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There's no depth of feeling there, they consider each other (half) brother and sister without anything but customary regard. If they were to find out they were not brother and sister there's no reason they wouldn't marry. But there would need to be a reason for them to marry, it would need to solve some of their problems, and Tyrion would first have to die.

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9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The fun part is that both Dany and Jon are half ice and half fire... both the children of Lyanna and Rheagar.

Sansa already has a husband, and Tyrion makes a great match. I'd be surprised if they don't end up back together and likely on the Iron Throne.

I'm pretty sure Rhaella is her mother, but interesting theory. ;)

That interview is fake, RIP bisexual Arya and Theon. 

2 hours ago, Daenys, the Dreamer said:

I just... I can't understand this ship. They may be cousins biologically, but they are siblings in every way that counts. They were raised as siblings. They see each other as siblings. They love each other as siblings. Does anyone really think that will ever change even when/if R+L is revealed?

I don't know, that depends on GRRM, not modern morality. 

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13 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

I'm pretty sure Rhaella is her mother, but interesting theory. ;)

Named after Brave Danny Flint?

you know flint, like frozen fire... and Dany like the other famous character named Danny? The girl who pretended to be something else until she's caught by her brothers? The Gender Neutral Prince that was Promised?

Lyanna named her as she was dying... 

Ned named Jon after Jon Arryn, probably not the name he was given by Rheagar and/or Lyanna... 

Doesn't seem to rule anything out.

 

Also just for fun because I put them together for another post... The Wolf Blood!

Bran:
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Of late, he often dreamed of wolves. They are talking to me, brother to brother, he told himself when the direwolves howled. He could almost understand them . . . not quite, not truly, but almost . . . as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. The Walders might be scared of them, but the Starks had wolf blood. Old Nan told him so. "Though it is stronger in some than in others," she warned.

 
Jon:
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 The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead.
A sound rose out of the darkness, faint and distant, but unmistakable: the howling of wolves. Their voices rose and fell, a chilly song, and lonely. It made the hairs rise along the back of his neck. Across the fire, a pair of red eyes regarded him from the shadows. The light of the flames made them glow.

 

Arya:

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For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

Sansa:

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There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howlingfiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

Dany:

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Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep. 
She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear.

 

 
And of course Dany's red door/lemon tree:
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The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

 

 

Dany also has the wolf blood...

Ned:

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"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Danny's red door again:

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She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

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15 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I think incest is solely brother/sister, the first Sansa was married to her paternal uncle and Lyarra was Brandon’s first cousin once removed; neither of those were seen as incest even though technically Sansa/Jonnel was. Jon and Sansa may be cousins but they were raised as siblings, so as far as I’m concerned it is incest. 

Why do we need Jonsa anyway? Why push for a relationship riddled with incest and taboo when instead Jon can be with Val whilst Sansa gets Harry or Aegon. 

Right, thanks !

Somehow I had a memory about Alys Karstark saying something about wedding between cousins but I just checked in the book and there is nothing of the sort. 

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On 01/11/2017 at 3:37 PM, Serafina said:

Right, thanks !

Somehow I had a memory about Alys Karstark saying something about wedding between cousins but I just checked in the book and there is nothing of the sort. 

Alys' first cousin once removed (Cregan Karstark) tried to marry her, he's not her father's brother so I don't think it would be regarded as incest plus that was how Rickard and Lyarra were related.

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17 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Alys' first cousin once removed (Cregan Karstark) tried to marry her, he's not her father's brother so I don't think it would be regarded as incest plus that was how Rickard and Lyarra were related.

Yes, indeed ! I got confused because she refers to him as a cousin (though he is her father's uncle).

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