Alex Gu

What if Jaime/cersei caught in winterfell

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What if Jaime and cersei were caught in winterfell maybe in broken tower or somewhere in castle?

Edited by Alex Gu

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 They were caught, by Bran. ^_^  But I'm sure you mean what if they were caught by someone else, an adult perhaps.  My guess is that Jamie would have probably killed whomever it was that found them on the spot, then Cersei would  have done some damage control. 

 

If it was in the broken tower for example they'd probably leave the body and sneak back to the main keep like nothing had happened.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Reekazoid said:

 They were caught, by Bran. ^_^  But I'm sure you mean what if they were caught by someone else, an adult perhaps.  My guess is that Jamie would have probably killed whomever it was that found them on the spot, then Cersei would  have done some damage control. 

 

If it was in the broken tower for example they'd probably leave the body and sneak back to the main keep like nothing had happened.

 

 

Seems about right. But what if they were caught and the person got away before Jaime could deal death? In this case, the aftermath would depend on the person. 

Edited by Foot_Of_The_King

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If it's someone that Bobby B would believe like Ned or Barristan? Renly and Loras would rejoice and then send for Margaery to come to King's Landing as fast as possible to help console Bob.

Tywin would try to broker a deal to get back Jaime which would include forgiving the Crown of it's dept to House Lannister and perhaps him paying off the dept that is owed to Braavos. Jaime would probably request Trail by Combat for him and Cersei. Only Barristan would have a shot at beating him. Bob might even try step in to face Jaime at the trail where he'd lose so Ned would have to talk him out of it like he did with the Tourney Melee. 

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If it's someone that Bobby B would believe like Ned or Barristan? Renly and Loras would rejoice and then send for Margaery to come to King's Landing as fast as possible to help console Bob.

Tywin would try to broker a deal to get back Jaime which would include forgiving the Crown of it's dept to House Lannister and perhaps him paying off the dept that is owed to Braavos. Jaime would probably request Trail by Combat for him and Cersei. Only Barristan would have a shot at beating him. Bob might even try step in to face Jaime at the trail where he'd lose so Ned would have to talk him out of it like he did with the Tourney Melee. 

Robert doesnt care about money as much as he cares about revenge there is no sum of money Tywin could pay to get Jamie back his best bet is to try and save his grandchildren who I believe were all in WF at the time, with Ned present I believe they would be spared only after Ned throws a logic hissy fit lol. 

 

IF and I mean IF Tywin gets his granchildren back he forgives the crowns debt and arrives at KL to bend the knee again and reasure his oath to Robert, Tywin loves his children but not as much as house Lannister itself which would be doomed in a war with ALL of Westeros on team Bobby B and with Robert needing a new wife you can bet your sweet ass where house Tyrell are going. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Robert doesnt care about money as much as he cares about revenge there is no sum of money Tywin could pay to get Jamie back his best bet is to try and save his grandchildren who I believe were all in WF at the time, with Ned present I believe they would be spared only after Ned throws a logic hissy fit lol. 

 

Nope. Don't see any chance of Ned getting Robert to spare the kids here. Only thing he'd likely be able to prevent is torture. I'm thinking sequence of events is: Children are given an overdose of sweet sleep or something similar as an act of mercy. They could die from that, or be smothered with a pillow, same difference. Then Ned, as executioner, beheads Jamie and Cersie.

The 5 Lannisters are sent on a barrow back to Casterly Rock. Robert stays North awhile to mourn and chill with Lyanna's ghost. The experience hardens Ned and gives him the out he was looking for to turn down Hand. End.

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1 hour ago, shadows and dust said:

Nope. Don't see any chance of Ned getting Robert to spare the kids here. Only thing he'd likely be able to prevent is torture. I'm thinking sequence of events is: Children are given an overdose of sweet sleep or something similar as an act of mercy. They could die from that, or be smothered with a pillow, same difference. Then Ned, as executioner, beheads Jamie and Cersie.

The 5 Lannisters are sent on a barrow back to Casterly Rock. Robert stays North awhile to mourn and chill with Lyanna's ghost. The experience hardens Ned and gives him the out he was looking for to turn down Hand. End.

Ned would NEVER and I mean NEVER allow Robert to murder innocent children especially in WF or the North period Ned is no coward and he would put Bobby B in his place hes done it before and if Robert forced the issue Ned would tell Robert to pack his shit up and leave the North at once. This would actually be fun to read about honestly it would put Ned in a hard place because Robert has WAY more men at WF since he came with an entourage over 1000 strong. 

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Robert would go full revenge mode. First, he would behead Jamie and Cersey. Then he would send their heads, as a present, to Tywin in Casterly Rock. Imidiatly he would send troups to Casterly Rock and declare war on the Lannister, and not rest until the last Lannister has died. He started a war against a dynasty that lasted for centuries only because the prince, to whom family he swore loyality, took his fiance. What will happen to a family that betrayd him as a king in the most personal way possible and made him a fool in the eyes of the whole Kindom? 

What would happen to the children is a more complex question. Of course they would be declared bastards. But would he kill them? Well Ned sugests that. And he knows Robert the best. So we have to trust him here. But Robert is not cruel. He would not behead them, but rather give them an easy death. Maybe kill them in their sleep or poison them. 

Edited by Dragonsbone

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29 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

What would happen to the children is a more complex question. Of course they would be declared bastards. But would he kill them? Well Ned sugests that. And he knows Robert the best. So we have to trust him here. But Robert is not cruel. He would not behead them, but rather give them an easy death. Maybe kill them in their sleep or poison them. 

Ned would try to convince him not to kill them, but I don't think he'd be successful.

A more politically astute friend might be able to suggest a benefit to keeping them alive. If you execute the kids, you pretty much have to invade the West and kill Tywin. But if you don't, there are plenty of other options. For example, say you execute Jaime and Cersei, legitimize the kids as Lannisters, keep Joffrey as a hostage, pardon Tywin without exonerating him, and appoint Tommen as the new Lord Paramount with a regent who doesn't directly antagonize Tywin. At that point, he has a much better chance of restoring Lannister prestige through Tommen than through rebellion, and he might take it. (He might not, but then it just comes back to going to war and killing him, which is no worse off than you started.)

But I doubt Ned would think like that. And I doubt Cat or anyone else immediately available could come up with the idea and brief him on how to sell it to Robert. And, even if she did, Robert would know Ned's real reason for suggesting it is just "They're kids, and it's not their fault", and Ned would admit it when pressed.

So, at best, Ned and Robert talking before either of them says anything they couldn't take back, and Robert puts the kids in chains and doesn't kill them until they're out of Ned's lands, and then they don't speak for another decade.

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20 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Ned would NEVER and I mean NEVER allow Robert to murder innocent children especially in WF or the North period Ned is no coward and he would put Bobby B in his place hes done it before and if Robert forced the issue Ned would tell Robert to pack his shit up and leave the North at once. This would actually be fun to read about honestly it would put Ned in a hard place because Robert has WAY more men at WF since he came with an entourage over 1000 strong. 

It is high treason to cuckold the King and present your illegitimate children as heirs to the throne. They are the product of incest, an abomination, in addition to the product of treason. They have to be culled. Their would be no way around it. Ned can say, "not on my lawn, my house my rules." But that is it. Those kids die. My guess is Ned sees this, or is told as much by his people. He knows if he lets Robert leave with the kids, their death could be cruel and fueled by rage. He cannot stop it, just keep it painless.

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10 minutes ago, shadows and dust said:

It is high treason to cuckold the King and present your illegitimate children as heirs to the throne. They are the product of incest, an abomination, in addition to the product of treason. They have to be culled. Their would be no way around it. Ned can say, "not on my lawn, my house my rules." But that is it. Those kids die. My guess is Ned sees this, or is told as much by his people. He knows if he lets Robert leave with the kids, their death could be cruel and fueled by rage. He cannot stop it, just keep it painless.

That's not Ned's way at all though and we see that in the books. He willingly gives up the element of surprise on Cersei just so the children can have a chance at living. If Cersei and Jaime were discovered in Winterfell? They die. There's no way around that and I doubt Ned would raise much of an objection beyond his 'the man who passes the sentence' which Robert would be more than happy to do in this situation.

Tyrion would probably be able to sweet talk his way out of too much danger, enough for his life to spared (probably). As for the children, well Ned would not stand for their deaths for a crime they themselves are innocent of. Odds are he would probably offer to foster them in Winterfell, or recomend the NW (with the faith and the citadel as alternatives) for the boys and the faith for Myrcella. Maybe he suceeds, maybe he doesn't. Either way those kids aren't dying on his lands and, as with the issue of Dany, he will have no part in it and will be 100% willing to break his friendship with Robert over this.

If Robert executes the kids despite Ned, then he loses a loyal friend.

Also bear in mind, Ned could easily force Robert to leave the kids in Winterfell (probably wouldn't but could). The Lannister men would probably side with the man trying to protect their lieges grandson as opposed to the man trying to kill them and most of Robert's entourage were Lannister men.

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“For a start,” said Ned, “I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow.” “Exile,” she said. “A bitter cup to drink from.” “A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar’s children,” Ned said, “and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin’s gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert’s wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be.”

Ned Got

He does not say he will protect the children, he simply says he does not kill them, once the truth comes out he knows Robert will kill them and knows he can't stop him.

But the question would be how much does Robert care for his kids, he dislikes Joff, would his love for the others blind him to the truth.  The fate of the children comes down to who the father is Cersei would lie to protect them, Jaime might confess.  If Robert didn't twig who would tell him?

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1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

He does not say he will protect the children, he simply says he does not kill them, once the truth comes out he knows Robert will kill them and knows he can't stop him.

But the question would be how much does Robert care for his kids, he dislikes Joff, would his love for the others blind him to the truth.  The fate of the children comes down to who the father is Cersei would lie to protect them, Jaime might confess.  If Robert didn't twig who would tell him?

But once again, he is giving them the chance to escape so as to save their lives. He could have not warned Cersei, told Robert when he returned and let the fall out happen. After all, by your logic, Ned's conscience would be perfectly fine with that. He didn't kill them, did he?

But no, we see in text that Ned goes out of his way to give the children the best chance of survival they can possibly get. I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same should the truth have come out in Winterfell.

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On 18/10/2017 at 6:12 AM, Alex Gu said:

What if Jaime and cersei were caught in winterfell maybe in broken tower or somewhere in castle?

Technically, they were caught.

But if you mean "what if they were caught by a responsible adult rather than the sweet, precocious seven-year-old?" then it would depend entirely on who caught them and, just as importantly, whether Jaime and Cersei caught them spying.

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4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

But once again, he is giving them the chance to escape so as to save their lives. He could have not warned Cersei, told Robert when he returned and let the fall out happen. After all, by your logic, Ned's conscience would be perfectly fine with that. He didn't kill them, did he?

But no, we see in text that Ned goes out of his way to give the children the best chance of survival they can possibly get. I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same should the truth have come out in Winterfell.

To tell Robert the truth is to sentence them to death, he knows all to well Roberts dragon spawn mentality.

Should Ned be in a position to aid the children I have no doubt he would, what I doubt is his capability to restrai the King in his wrath.  The senario given is the Lannisters found out far from their power base, justice would be swift; but again the question would be does Robert realise that none of his children are his?

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7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

If Cersei and Jaime were discovered in Winterfell? They die. There's no way around that and I doubt Ned would raise much of an objection beyond his 'the man who passes the sentence' which Robert would be more than happy to do in this situation.

Ha, I hadn't thought of that.

"Well, Robert, the evidence is undeniable, and the only penalty for this kind of treason is death. But here in the North we have this tradition that he who passes the sentence should swing—and I see that you've already disemboweled both of them before I could even finish suggesting that you kill them yourself, so… never mind."

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19 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

But once again, he is giving them the chance to escape so as to save their lives. He could have not warned Cersei, told Robert when he returned and let the fall out happen. After all, by your logic, Ned's conscience would be perfectly fine with that. He didn't kill them, did he?

But no, we see in text that Ned goes out of his way to give the children the best chance of survival they can possibly get. I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same should the truth have come out in Winterfell.

Because Robert and Ned would be learning about the twincest simultaneously. Ned goes out of his way to protect the kids because it's in his ability to do so. If Robert and Ned found out together, Ned does not have the opportunity. It's a completely different scenario.

There is a huge difference b/w advising someone to flee wrath and actively assisting in their escape/protection. I would easily grant Ned does not wish to see the children killed; but he knows the law like he knows Robert, so he knows their life is forfeit.  The passage quoted above essentially says as much.

Edited by shadows and dust
typos

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On 10/18/2017 at 0:12 AM, Alex Gu said:

What if Jaime and cersei were caught in winterfell maybe in broken tower or somewhere in castle?

We would not have had much of a book series.

The Lannisters would have been done for. Ser Loras, Renly and the Tyrells would have had Marge wed and bedded by Robert as soon as possible and Tywin would have had Tyrion as a hostage, Cersei probably executed, maybe Jaime but Ned would have probably convinced him to send him to the NIght's Watch instead. He would have been great up there as Tywin, out of pride would have spend much money supporting the Watch.

I would love the scenario that Joff would be executed but those kids would probably remain hostages under Ned's insistance.

 

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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1 hour ago, shadows and dust said:

Because Robert and Ned would be learning about the twincest simultaneously. Ned goes out of his way to protect the kids because it's in his ability to do so. If Robert and Ned found out together, Ned does not have the opportunity. It's a completely different scenario.

There is a huge difference b/w advising someone to flee wrath and actively assisting in their escape/protection. I would easily grant Ned does not wish to see the children killed; but he knows the law like he knows Robert, so he knows their life is forfeit.  The passage quoted above essentially says as much.

 I agree with this.  I could see Ned trying to make it easier on the children, but essentially there is nothing he can do. Such a blatant act of treason demands justice. 

22 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

“For a start,” said Ned, “I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow.” “Exile,” she said. “A bitter cup to drink from.” “A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar’s children,” Ned said, “and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin’s gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert’s wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be.”

Ned Got

He does not say he will protect the children, he simply says he does not kill them, once the truth comes out he knows Robert will kill them and knows he can't stop him.

But the question would be how much does Robert care for his kids, he dislikes Joff, would his love for the others blind him to the truth.  The fate of the children comes down to who the father is Cersei would lie to protect them, Jaime might confess.  If Robert didn't twig who would tell him?

Yeah, if Robert didn't want to  think/admit that the children weren't his I doubt many would be scrambling to tell him. If he found out that most of his council and courtiers knew or at least suspected, they would be dealt with accordingly. I think over time Robert would come to realize the truth of it though. 

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Just now, Rhaesenya said:

 I agree with this.  I could see Ned trying to make it easier on the children, but essentially there is nothing he can do. Such a blatant act of treason demands justice. 

Yeah, if Robert didn't want to  think/admit that the children weren't his I doubt many would be scrambling to tell him. If he found out that most of his council and courtiers knew or at least suspected, they would be dealt with accordingly. I think over time Robert would come to realize the truth of it though. 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Whether there is anything he can actually do or not, its in Ned's character to try and save them regardless of what the outcome is. He was willing to give up investigating Jon's death, the attempt on Bran, leave his best friend to Lannister schemes and ruin their relationship over Dany, a girl he'd never met whose father murdered his father and brother. He outright argued with Robert and very nearly broke of their friendship over Aegon and Rhaenys and Elia. Ned would do everything he could to save Joff, Myrcella and Tommen (assuming anyone in Winterfell makes the connection between their hair and the twincest without a Baratheon bastard and a book of lineages to back the evidence up) and if Robert killed them anyway then he can kiss his relationship with Ned goodbye.

Also as to the bolded, you seem to be implying that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are guilty of treason, which is 100% incorrect. The crime is Cersei and Jaime's. I hate Joffrey but that is one crime he is innocent of.

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