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Alex Gu

Robert,pycelle,hunt

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Was Robert dying already when he returned to king landing wounded from the boar or did pycelle cause his wound to be fatal?

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They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to nipple with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. Ned's stomach turned. He let the blanket fall.

LOL I'm pretty sure he was dying already. Being ripped open from "groin to nipple" and then traveling for a number of days with no real medical attention sounds pretty fatal. ;) 

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Just now, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL I'm pretty sure he was dying already. Being ripped open from "groin to nipple" and then traveling for a number of days with no real medical attention sounds pretty fatal. ;) 

This. 

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18 minutes ago, Alex Gu said:

Why no maester with hunt?

Why would Pycelle go on a hunt? He has duties to attend to at the castle, like handling the ravens. There is no good reason for him to go hunting.

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Adding to the severe injury from the boar's tusks, Robert's belly was most likely full of wine and food, causing immediate sepsis. A massive belly wound is nothing that Westerosi medicine is able to handle under the best of circumstances. It wouldn't have mattered if doddering elderly Pycelle had been hauled along. And if Qyburn had been onsite ... well, that might have been interesting.

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Just surviving that type of wound long enough to get back to King's Landing was a miracle in itself, Bobby B was one tough son of a gun even though he was a shadow of his former self.

Had Lancel not roofied Bob he most likely would have killed the boar with only getting a minor injury. Had Robert been in The Demon of the Trident shape he was in his youth? Then that boar would have never even laid a tusk on him and Bob would have killed him with a punch to the head without even needing a spear or any other weapon.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Just surviving that type of wound long enough to get back to King's Landing was a miracle in itself, Bobby B was one tough son of a gun even though he was a shadow of his former self.

Had Lancel not roofied Bob he most likely would have killed the boar with only getting a minor injury. Had Robert been in The Demon of the Trident shape he was in his youth? Then that boar would have never even laid a tusk on him and Bob would have killed him with a punch to the head without even needing a spear or any other weapon.

A regular boar mayhaps. But you are ignoring the fact that the boar was skinchanged by Bloodraven ;) 

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By going to Queen Cersei with Lord Eddard's plans on the morning of Cersei's purge, did young Sansa indirectly accelerate King Robert's dying?

First, let me just say that I am not a hater. I dont believe that The George is setting up Sansa to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic. I found Arya's and Sansa's plight to be the most riveting aspects of the first act of ASOIAF the first time I read the novels. Even though Sansa's actions that morning had negative consequences for House Stark, I don't think we should be throwing an eleven-year-old under the ox cart. With that said, I'm wondering if one of the consequences was that the Queen had the King's life terminated a bit prematurely . . .

There is no doubt that King Robert was a good as dead when he returned from his hunt . . .

Quote

So Robert had returned from his hunt. . . .

The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. . . .

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. . . .

Heavy chains jangled softly as Grand Maester Pycelle came up to Ned. "I will do all in my power, my lord, but the wound has mortified. It took them two days to get him back. By the time I saw him, it was too late. I can lessen His Grace's suffering, but only the gods can heal him now."

"How long?" Ned asked.

"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."

"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. . . .

Eddard XIII, Game 47

So, it would be foolish to suggest that Sansa's actions caused the King to die. That die was already cast. But we have this scene the following morning . . .

Quote

The grey light of dawn was streaming through his window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock warriors stuffed with straw. Ned watched Sandor Clegane gallop across the hard-packed ground to drive an iron-tipped lance through a dummy's head. Canvas ripped and straw exploded as Lannister guardsmen joked and cursed.

Is this brave show for my benefit? he wondered. If so, Cersei was a greater fool than he'd imagined. Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Here the author suggests that Cersei was demonstrating her strength. But, presumably, the King was still alive, and Sansa was having breakfast with her father and her sister . . .

Quote

The morning was overcast and grim. Ned broke his fast with his daughters and Septa Mordane. Sansa, still disconsolate, stared sullenly at her food and refused to eat, but Arya wolfed down everything that was set in front of her. "Syrio says we have time for one last lesson before we take ship this evening," she said. "Can I, Father? All my things are packed."

"A short lesson, and make certain you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood?"

"By midday," Arya said.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

So Sansa knew that she and Arya were expected to be ready to depart the Red Keep by noon that day, and that the Wind Witch would sail later that evening. She was not happy about having to leave Joffrey . . .

Quote

Sansa looked up from her food. "If she can have a dancing lesson, why won't you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?"

"I would gladly go with her, Lord Eddard," Septa Mordane offered. "There would be no question of her missing the ship."

"It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I'm sorry."

Sansa's eyes filled with tears. "But why?"

"Sansa, your lord father knows best," Septa Mordane said. "You are not to question his decisions."

"It's not fair!" Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran weeping from the solar.

Septa Mordane rose, but Ned gestured her back to her seat. "Let her go, Septa. I will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell." The septa bowed her head and sat down to finish her breakfast.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

It's too bad for House Stark that Eddard did not allow Mordane to follow the young, despairing Sansa, because, just one hour later . . .

Quote

It was an hour later when Grand Maester Pycelle came to Eddard Stark in his solar. His shoulders slumped, as if the weight of the great maester's chain around his neck had become too great to bear. "My lord," he said, "King Robert is gone. The gods give him rest."

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Notice that the author tells us that Robert passes immediately after the scene where Sansa runs off. The information is presented by Cersei's creature Pycelle, one hour after Sansa goes to the Queen and tells her of Eddards plans . . .

Quote

"Please, I need to speak to the queen again," Sansa told them, as she told everyone she saw that day.

Sansa IV, Game 51

That word again was the first signal to the reader that Sansa had done what she did . . .

Quote

"Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, now we know that Sansa, defied her father, went to the Queen, rather than to the King, whom she hoped would command Eddard to allow her to remain in King's Landing with her love Prince Joffrey. Cersei had Arys take her into custody, and within the hour, Pycelle advised Eddard that the King was dead. We also knew that Cersei benefitted from the information she gained from Sansa that morning . . .

Quote

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . "

Tyrion I, Clash 3

We can surmise that Petyr promised the gold cloaks to Cersei sometime after Eddard told Cersei that he would advise the King of her treason upon his return from the hunt. We can also surmise that Cersei suspected Eddard of plotting with Renly since Boros and Preston observed them talking on the drawbridge right after Robert returned from the hunt. But she could not have known about Eddard's letter to Stannis until after Fat Tom was killed during the purge. And we know this as well . . .

Quote

. . . No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc. . . but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc. . . all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

SSM, April 10, 1999, Regarding Sansa

Once Sansa told Cersei that Eddard's daughters were to leave King's Landing in a few hours, Cersei could no longer wait for the King to die. With her Lannister soldiers and Petyr's gold cloaks she had the muscle she needed to move against the Hand. But she could not make such a move before Robert died. On the other hand, she could not risk losing Sansa and Arya as potential hostages. Sansa proved to be the leverage she needed to force Eddard to bend the knee, and knowing that Sansa could be executed likely kept Robb from executing Jaime.

Shortly after Pycelle advised Eddard of the King's death, Cersei summoned the Hand and the small council to the throne room, and Eddard noticed that the Lannister men were not practicing in the yard anymore. Whether Robert's death was hastened as a result of Sansa's action that morning is not provable, based on what we know. Nor can I find any hints that this is the case. But it is possible . . . What do you think?

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

A regular boar mayhaps. But you are ignoring the fact that the boar was skinchanged by Bloodraven ;) 

Bobby B on a "you stole my woman and murdered my beloved Starks" war hammer warpath > Bloodraven and Skinchanging.

That's why Bloodraven knew that the Targaryens were doomed to lose RR after Aerys had killed the Starks and didn't even attempt to help them. You simply don't kill off members of a Great House when their number one fanboy was The Demon of the mother f'ing  Trident. No tree wizard could have stopped him no matter how powerful his magics were.

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

By going to Queen Cersei with Lord Eddard's plans on the morning of Cersei's purge, did young Sansa indirectly accelerate King Robert's dying?

First, let me just say that I am not a hater. I dont believe that The George is setting up Sansa to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic. I found Arya's and Sansa's plight to be the most riveting aspects of the first act of ASOIAF the first time I read the novels. Even though Sansa's actions that morning had negative consequences for House Stark, I don't think we should be throwing an eleven-year-old under the ox cart. With that said, I'm wondering if one of the consequences was that the Queen had the King's life terminated a bit prematurely . . .

There is no doubt that King Robert was a good as dead when he returned from his hunt . . .

Eddard XIII, Game 47

So, it would be foolish to suggest that Sansa's actions caused the King to die. That die was already cast. But we have this scene the following morning . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Here the author suggests that Cersei was demonstrating her strength. But, presumably, the King was still alive, and Sansa was having breakfast with her father and her sister . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

So Sansa knew that she and Arya were expected to be ready to depart the Red Keep by noon that day, and that the Wind Witch would sail later that evening. She was not happy about having to leave Joffrey . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

It's too bad for House Stark that Eddard did not allow Mordane to follow the young, despairing Sansa, because, just one hour later . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Notice that the author tells us that Robert passes immediately after the scene where Sansa runs off. The information is presented by Cersei's creature Pycelle, one hour after Sansa goes to the Queen and tells her of Eddards plans . . .

Sansa IV, Game 51

That word again was the first signal to the reader that Sansa had done what she did . . .

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, now we know that Sansa, defied her father, went to the Queen, rather than to the King, whom she hoped would command Eddard to allow her to remain in King's Landing with her love Prince Joffrey. Cersei had Arys take her into custody, and within the hour, Pycelle advised Eddard that the King was dead. We also knew that Cersei benefitted from the information she gained from Sansa that morning . . .

Tyrion I, Clash 3

We can surmise that Petyr promised the gold cloaks to Cersei sometime after Eddard told Cersei that he would advise the King of her treason upon his return from the hunt. We can also surmise that Cersei suspected Eddard of plotting with Renly since Boros and Preston observed them talking on the drawbridge right after Robert returned from the hunt. But she could not have known about Eddard's letter to Stannis until after Fat Tom was killed during the purge. And we know this as well . . .

SSM, April 10, 1999, Regarding Sansa

Once Sansa told Cersei that Eddard's daughters were to leave King's Landing in a few hours, Cersei could no longer wait for the King to die. With her Lannister soldiers and Petyr's gold cloaks she had the muscle she needed to move against the Hand. But she could not make such a move before Robert died. On the other hand, she could not risk losing Sansa and Arya as potential hostages. Sansa proved to be the leverage she needed to force Eddard to bend the knee, and knowing that Sansa could be executed likely kept Robb from executing Jaime.

Shortly after Pycelle advised Eddard of the King's death, Cersei summoned the Hand and the small council to the throne room, and Eddard noticed that the Lannister men were not practicing in the yard anymore. Whether Robert's death was hastened as a result of Sansa's action that morning is not provable, based on what we know. Nor can I find any hints that this is the case. But it is possible . . . What do you think?

So wait, what happened first? Ned finding out about the Lannincest, or the boar hunt?

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55 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So wait, what happened first? Ned finding out about the Lannincest, or the boar hunt?

Eddard resigns his office as Hand of the King. Jaime ambushes Eddard. Robert reninstates Eddard as Hand of the King, and departs for the hunt. While Robert is still hunting. Eddard warns Cersei. Then, Robert returns, mortally wounded. 

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39 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Eddard resigns his office as Hand of the King. Jaime ambushes Eddard. Robert reninstates Eddard as Hand of the King, and departs for the hunt. While Robert is still hunting. Eddard warns Cersei. Then, Robert returns, mortally wounded. 

So Cersei was planning to off Robert even before Ned found out?

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So Cersei was planning to off Robert even before Ned found out?

Varys tells Eddard that she had been trying to do so for some time. Just before Eddard warned Cersei, though, we learned this from Petyr...

Quote

"Is there word of the king?" Ned demanded. "Just how long does Robert intend to hunt?"

"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems . . . or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it. Prince Joffrey returned this morning, with the Royces, Ser Balon Swann, and some twenty others of the party. The rest are still with the king."

Eddard XII, Game 45

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28 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it.

That's our Bob. He dreamed big and would swing for the fences every time. Guys like that usually don't live for very long unfortunately, even when their wife isn't trying to kill them.

 

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

That's our Bob. He dreamed big and would swing for the fences every time. Guys like that usually don't live for very long unfortunately, even when their wife isn't trying to kill them.

And Cersei knew it. 

Petyr knew it too. Petyr took systematic steps to lure Eddard onto ground of his choosing, and to instigate conflict between Houses Stark and Lannister. Then Petyr saw that with Catelyn's capture of Tyrion, and with Tywin preparing for war, it was time to spring the trap, but when Robert renamed Eddard as Hand of the King, Petyr decided to remove Eddard's principal backer from the board, advising Cersei of the monstrous boar. 

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9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

A regular boar mayhaps. But you are ignoring the fact that the boar was skinchanged by Bloodraven ;) 

It has been a while since I have thought about the boar hunt but that is the first time that I have heard of that theory.

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It has been a while since I have thought about the boar hunt but that is the first time that I have heard of that theory.

Well there are a lot of people who have theorized that the boar was skinchanged, but if you want my personal take on it feel free to check it out in the context of a much larger theory on Bloodraven. But to summarize, Bloodraven was effectively the one responsible for the Wot5K, and killing Robert on the hunt was a key part of that. He lured Robert into the woods with a rare white hart, devoured the hart with wolves, lured Robert further into the forest with the monstrous boar, and used the boar to kill him. Robert even stabbed the boar in the eye and claimed it was a bastard sent by the gods. Bloodraven was also responsible for the purposely failed assassination attempt on Bran, the other key event that started the war. The attempt was clearly failed on purpose to leave the dagger behind as evidence, and since Summer is the one who killed the assassin, the only person who could have planned for the assassin to be killed was Bloodraven, who presumably has the ability to warg Summer.

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9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Bobby B on a "you stole my woman and murdered my beloved Starks" war hammer warpath > Bloodraven and Skinchanging.

That's why Bloodraven knew that the Targaryens were doomed to lose RR after Aerys had killed the Starks and didn't even attempt to help them. You simply don't kill off members of a Great House when their number one fanboy was The Demon of the mother f'ing  Trident. No tree wizard could have stopped him no matter how powerful his magics were.

Lol OK you may be right on that one :P

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Bobby B was done. Boar ripped him from naval to nipple I believe. 

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