A Tyrosh torture device called "valonqar"

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

59 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because it's foreign? Is that a serious question? Sounds more exotic. A little flair verbally is perfectly in line with the very ornate chest he's got "Tyrion's" head in. He is, after all, addressing the queen

Yes it's a serious question. I fail to see how using the Valyrian word for little brother emphasizes it in any way. Furthermore I think it's extremely coincidental - too coincendital to be a coincidence in fact - that this man uses the very word Maggy used without knowing Maggy used it. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

First, @Ckram, well done in the op laying out a great little theory in a consice and entertaining way!

I do love the idea that the Tyroshi device is nicknamed the Valonquar... (even though Jaime as the Valonquar works so well, but multi-meanings are more fun, and this is an interesting possibility). Of course, at the end of the day we just don't know yet.

Maybe this isn't totally on topic but this post made me re-read the frog's prophesy and curse... 3 questions by Cersei (normal text), 3 answers from the frog (bold), and some extrapolation by both (italics, bold for the frog):

 

Quote

 

"When will I wed the prince?" 

"Never.

 

You will wed the king."

 

 "I will be queen, though?"

"Aye."

 

"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

"If she tries I will have my brother kill her."

 

"Will the king and I have children?" 

"Oh, aye.

 

Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,"

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

 

My 3 questions :

 

First question, do the kings children get gold crowns and shrouds too?

 

For example, Barra delivered in a Gold Cloak (like Aegon was delivered in a Red Cloak?), her mother was a prostitute and westros uses a currency of gold crowns...

 

Second question, is Valonqar used in response to Cersei's threat to have her brother "kill her"?

To the OP, Jaime fits so well, but he also bore witness to Brandon and Rickard's murder... and in turn murdered Aerys (side note why do I really feel like Varys is involved here... did he bring Aerys the device from Essos? Did he have siblings?). Or maybe it's the woman who would cast her down's little brother? And that seems to come full circle back to the Kingslayer. So many options...

 

Third, If dragons gender is fluid, as per the prince that was promised, is Valonqar gender neutral as well?

 

(Ps. What color are the eyes of death?)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

First question, do the kings children get gold crowns and shrouds too?

 

For example, Barra delivered in a Gold Cloak (like Aegon was delivered in a Red Cloak?), her mother was a prostitute and westros uses a currency of gold crowns

Interesting. I don't think we have enough information to even guess to this but it's definetely possible. 

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Second question, is Valonqar used in response to Cersei's threat to have her brother "kill her"?

To the OP, Jaime fits so well, but he also bore witness to Brandon and Rickard's murder... and in turn murdered Aerys (side note why do I really feel like Varys is involved here... did he bring Aerys the device from Essos? Did he have siblings?). Or maybe it's the woman who would cast her down's little brother? And that seems to come full circle back to the Kingslayer. So many options...

Maybe. I've been hung up on the wording "the" valonqar for some time & can't get the idea out of my head that Maggy is talking about the same person as when she says the younger, more beautiful. Or at the least someone she has already mentioned in the prophecy (the King, the younger, more beautiful, or one of the children) since it obviously isn't the King (unless Cersei marries another king) that only leaves the younger, more beautiful or one of the children. For whatever reason my mind decided the younger more beautiful was the more logical answer but reading your post it made me think maybe it makes more sense that it is one of the children & the reason Maggy says "the" valonqar is because the "little brother" she is referring to is not Cersei's brother nor Cersei's kin - he is Roberts. But then how many of Robert's bastards do we know of? How many are boys? How many are still alive? & who is the oldest? This has the potential to still leave us with many answers. 

One of the reasons I like this theory so much is there aren't several options there is just the one device. Several options for the situation it could happen in. 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Third, If dragons gender is fluid, as per the prince that was promised, is Valonqar gender neutral as well?

The only issue I see with this is Maggy says "his" hands. Of course for this theory to work we have to not take "his" literally either. 

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ps. What color are the eyes of death?)

I'll tell you if you tell me where whores go. 

[Ckram]

7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

First, @Ckram, well done in the op laying out a great little theory in a consice and entertaining way!

[...]

To the OP, Jaime fits so well, but he also bore witness to Brandon and Rickard's murder... and in turn murdered Aerys (side note why do I really feel like Varys is involved here... did he bring Aerys the device from Essos? Did he have siblings?). Or maybe it's the woman who would cast her down's little brother? And that seems to come full circle back to the Kingslayer. So many options...

 

Third, If dragons gender is fluid, as per the prince that was promised, is Valonqar gender neutral as well?

1 - Thank you!

2 - This question made me think that if GRRM ended up causing Jaime to kill Cersei with the same device that Aerys used on Brandon I will forever be in doubt about who the valonqar really is. However, the possibility of this happening is very remote and would be a rather cheap solution.

3 - I think it would be very annoying if the answer to yet another mistranslation was another case of High Valyrian gender neutrality.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But then how many of Robert's bastards do we know of? How many are boys? How many are still alive? & who is the oldest? This has the potential to still leave us with many answers. [...]

One of the reasons I like this theory so much is there aren't several options there is just the one device. Several options for the situation it could happen in. 

1 - According to the wiki (in order of age): Mya Stone (alive), Bella (alive), Gendry (alive), Edric Storm (alive), Unknown twins (dead), Barra (dead) and 9 Others (Unknown).

2 - Yes, it makes it simpler. But I'd say maybe a bit too simple for GRRM.

[cgrav]

Could Valonqar be the proper name of The Strangler poison that kills Cressen and Joffrey? I'm not sure how "little brother" could possibly become a nickname for strangler, unless it's a reference to a historical little brother who strangled someone.

Blood Betrayal reference maybe? The poison itself is from Jade Sea, in the proximity of the old Great Empire, where a brother killed his empress sister. 

The poison is also formed into the "black amethysts" by combining it with ashes. So, choking ashes.

On 10/19/2017 at 9:03 PM, ravenous reader said:

we have discovered a two-step ritualized duel which GRRM repeats ad nauseum (the secret to 'solving' GRRM is to answer the question, not as to 'what' he is repeating, but 'why' he is repeating it -- thus far, I have no convincing answer, besides being able to recognise that he's doing it):

If we want to connect this drowned and choked thing to big picture, we can consider the ashes of the moon disaster as the choking agent. The fiery space junk drowned in the oceans, but sent up clouds of ash. And I guess we could think of a moon as a planet's "little brother".

Looking at the sword being reached for as a Lightbringer symbol, then I think this archetypal duel represents the breaking of the seasons and the life/death cycle. Winter and death are winning, as the "summer king" archetype can't reach the sword that slays the dark winter. 

And you know what I just realized? If the opening scene demonstrates summer being choked out by wighty winter... then it's pretty significant that the first thing Jon Snow ever kills is a wight, using fire.

edit: I guess none of this really pins down what exactly "valonqar" will come to mean in the upcoming story, but very interesting discussion nonetheless.

[Ygrain]

An interesting idea and quite convincingly presented. However, what would its narrative value be? A scene of Cersei strangling herself on the device, unable to reach Tommen, would definitely be heartwrenching, but I cannot see any connection that would explain why the Starks' end should be replayed with Cersei. Whereas, Cersei choked to death by her brother and former lover after she becomes everything that he loathes, that's a tragedy which would make Shakespeare bite his nails in envy. True, Jaime is not exactly able to wrap both his hands around her throat, but pressing his golden hand against her throat would achieve the same effect. There is a lot going on about the two bound to leave the world together as they entered it, two parts of a whole... and IIRC, she even calls Jaime "little brother" at some occasion. A strangling device which has played very little role so far seems... anticlimactic.

[Seams]

9 hours ago, cgrav said:

Could Valonqar be the proper name of The Strangler poison that kills Cressen and Joffrey? I'm not sure how "little brother" could possibly become a nickname for strangler, unless it's a reference to a historical little brother who strangled someone.

Blood Betrayal reference maybe? The poison itself is from Jade Sea, in the proximity of the old Great Empire, where a brother killed his empress sister.

I'm leaning toward "valonqar" and the Tyroshi torture device being two different but strongly linked things.

For me, the key is to try to assemble the elements of GRRM's pattern and then to guess how that pattern will be applied in a new combination (or more than one combination) in the last two books. In this case, we seem to be zeroing in on a good educated guess about who/how Cersei will die. So I think your look back to the old empire and identifying the brother / sister murder is entirely relevant.

At a minimum, what we have so far for elements of the pattern are:

1) Valonqar = little brother. The siblings seem somewhat interchangeable as murderer and murder victim.

2) A torture device that allows for a strangulation murder without actually manually strangling the victim. A "hands off" murder or murder-by-proxy, possibly. Leather strips seem to be used in a couple clear cases, but a regular rope noose also appears in the pattern and Shae is killed by the chain of office of the Hand of the King.

3) Reaching for a sword as a cause of choking.

4) Death of a father; exile of an uncle.

5) Smith imagery.

6) Ice vs. Fire imagery.

In addition to the connection made in the OP to the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark, I mentioned Tywin & Shae, Edmure Tully, Vargo Hoat, Groat, Robb Stark, Joffrey and Gerion Lannister as possibly participating in the pattern or part of the pattern at various points in their stories.

Whores had been mentioned in a couple of posts in this thread so I wanted to see if they were an element in the pattern, but I don't find that they are present in a majority of the cases, although GRRM can be very subtle sometimes. @Lollygag I don't think we are told that Taena had been a whore in the Free Cities, as you asserted. It's possible that was the case but not confirmed, as far as I know. In Clash, Jon wonders about his mother's identity and then resolves that he just wants to know who she was, even if she was a whore. So the offstage Lyanna could be the "whore" in the Rickard / Brandon death scene, even though she wasn't a literal whore. (If we can pin down this whore symbolism, it could solve one of the major mysteries of the books and answer Tywin and Tyrion's oft-repeated question!) Soon after Jon's speculation about his mother, Tyrion muses that Joff might benefit from a visit to a whore and then the smallfolk call Cersei a whore (among other insults) as the royal family escorts Myrcella to her ship to Dorne. This is all followed by Joffrey's one experience with combat - a hands-off, indirect use of lethal weapons and some other elements of our pattern:

"Mother promised I could have the Whores," Joffrey said. Tyrion was annoyed to see that the king had lifted the visor of his helm again. Doubtless the boy was cooking inside all that heavy steel . . . but the last thing he needed was some stray arrow punching through his nephew's eye.

He clanged the visor shut. "Keep that closed, Your Grace; your sweet person is precious to us all." And you don't want to spoil that pretty face, either. "The Whores are yours." It was as good a time as any; flinging more firepots down onto burning ships seemed pointless. Joff had the Antler Men trussed up naked in the square below, antlers nailed to their heads. When they'd been brought before the Iron Throne for justice, he had promised to send them to Stannis. A man was not as heavy as a boulder or a cask of burning pitch, and could be thrown a deal farther. Some of the gold cloaks had been wagering on whether the traitors would fly all the way across the Blackwater. "Be quick about it, Your Grace," he told Joffrey. "We'll want the trebuchets throwing stones again soon enough. Even wildfire does not burn forever."

(ACoK, Tyrion XIII)

So maybe we need to add whores to the list of elements after all. Like Rickard Stark, Joffrey is cooking in his armor. There is a torture device with a nick name. The Antler Men could be symbolic of Robert Baratheon, who wore antlers on his helmet, so we have the death of a father. The sibling murder attempt here may not be aimed at Joffrey so much as at Tyrion: this scene precedes the attack on Tyrion by Ser Mandon Moore. Tyrion assumes that Cersei hired or ordered Ser Mandon to kill him. Tyrion (also the uncle in this scenario) is also demoted immediately following the battle - an internal exile of sorts. (Tyrion shutting the visor so that Joff won't be shot evokes the death of Rattleshirt, a symbolic Ned character. He is burning in a metal cage until Jon Snow orders a mercy killing and has his archers shoot the dying man. It also could foreshadow Ser Jorah telling Tyrion that a splinter through the eye is the worst kind of death as well as the splinter in Ser Waymar's eye back in the AGoT prologue.)

(Note: As I've been writing, I've wondered about babies as well as whores. Dany is pregnant when Viserys dies; Cersei's children are linked to Maggie's prophecy; Lyanna is probably already pregnant or about to become so when Brandon and Rickard die. But I'll have to put more thought into that some other time. It would enrich the sibling conflict if it turns out that the death of the father and the birth of the next generation are always linked. Lollys Stokeworth might be the surrogate mother in Cersei and Tyrion's sibling rivalry.)

The scene with Joffrey and "The Whores" also precedes the departure of the Hound - a famous younger brother in the series. He refuses to continue fighting in the midst of the wildfire inferno, says, "Bugger the King's Hand," and leaves King's Landing. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but GRRM also describes the removal of the Hound's helmet and the blood pouring down his face hiding his burn injuries. In this, maybe we have a rejection of a threatened strangulation - "Bugger the King's Hand" - and the ice and fire element of our pattern might be that the Hound's burns are somehow "healed" by this blood. His face is described as "pale as milk" in this scene, so that might be the white walker imagery and a reversal or overdue balancing of his face-on-fire imagery. It is also the smith imagery, with the heating of the person within the armor and the remolding of the liquefied (bleeding) person emerging from the crucible and being remolded to make an entirely new weapon.

The idea of Joffrey and the Hound being heated in their armor becomes especially interesting when you look back at Tyrion's earlier desire to take Joffrey to a brothel: he felt he couldn't do it unless he could separate the king from the Hound. In this scene, he let Joffrey have access to "The Whores" and soon Joffrey and The Hound are permanently separated, similar to the way that Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are separated, imho.

More briefly, I'll note that Viserys is killed with Khal Drogo's belt after it is melted down. It is made of gold medallions, so it may be more like the chain of the Hand of the King used to kill Shae than like the leather strips used to kill Brandon Stark. Dany tried to give Viserys a gold medallion belt to wear, but he rejected the outfit, called her a slut, physically attacked her, and she then turned and hit him with the belt. The melting of the medallion belt gives us the smith imagery.

I'm not sure I can tie the death of Viserys to the death of a father and the exile of an uncle, so maybe it's not a great fit for the pattern. Viserys was "reaching" for a crown more than for a sword at the time of his death, but he says, "I am the dragon" among his last few words, and dragons and swords have been linked through the comet imagery. I suppose demanding the Iron Throne also counts as "reaching" for a bunch of swords.

Counter to the pattern, perhaps, are a couple of scenes with Brienne. The smith Gendry, who is the spitting image of King Robert's younger brother, saves her by reaching for a sword and sticking the pointy end through Biter's skull. (She is gravely wounded on the cheek before Gendry saves her, though.)

She is later threatened with strangulation by noose. She is more worried about saving Podrick Payne than about herself, it seems, so she says a word. Several people in this forum (and apparently an SSM) have indicated that the word she says is, "Sword," asking to be allowed to live and agreeing to work for Lady Stoneheart. So she is reaching for a sword. Pod is a sort of little brother figure, although that is never stated directly or literally. In a couple places, Tyrion refers brothers being like or unlike "peas in a pod."

Interesting that Pod saves Tyrion at the Blackwater and is by Brienne's side helping to revive her after Biter's attack and when she is threatened with hanging by the Brotherhood without Banners. Why is the pattern reversed for Brienne and Pod? Because they are "supposed" to be reaching for their swords, while the other sword-reachers are unworthy? Is Dany also part of this reversal of the pattern, as she seems successful in reaching for the dragon, where Viserys failed?

I suspect that the symbolism around Penny and Groat is also part of this pattern. The fake beheading in the wedding feast jousting match -immediately preceding Joffrey's real death by choking - and Groat's real death by beheading are particularly relevant (especially with the Tyroshi man presenting Cersei with her Valonqar, which may be Groat's head). I have outlined in other threads my suspicions that Penny and Groat are linked to Littlefinger and to dragon eggs. Penny is a symbolic Cersei figure. She also plays an important role in "knighting" Tyrion: teaching him to joust and providing him with (initially) wooden armor. In TWoW:

Spoiler

She also helps him to don real armor and to find a suitable sword.

But I gotta get some other things done today, so I'll leave the details for another post.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Whores had been mentioned in a couple of posts in this thread so I wanted to see if they were an element in the pattern, but I don't find that they are present in a majority of the cases, although GRRM can be very subtle sometimes. @Lollygag I don't think we are told that Taena had been a whore in the Free Cities, as you asserted. It's possible that was the case but not confirmed, as far as I know.

GAH! I stand corrected. I read the quote too fast.

AFFC Cersei IV

Taena laughed. "My lord is more bountiful than dangerous, this is so. Yet . . . I hope Your Grace will not think the less of me, but I did not come a maid entire to Orton's bed.

You are all whores in the Free Cities, aren't you? That was good to know; one day, she might be able to make use of it. "And pray, who was this lover who was so . . . full of danger?"

 

[Lollygag]

On 10/20/2017 at 3:04 PM, Ckram said:

1 - Although it seems a very attractive alternative, I think the power to alter/control Cersei's fate (rather than just predict it) would make Maggy powerful beyond what would be credible.

I agree on that account. I don't think there's any magic in the series which undermines character agency because that would be just awful.

Maggy knew that Cersei was very paranoid even at that young age because she knew that she would kill Melara. I think the curse was about feeding Cersei's paranoia and other vices, about ensuring that she would take a bad path to her own destruction. Feeding paranoia is a bad, bad thing as it feeds on itself in a cycle that's difficult to break. I'm using the word curse here because it's so prevalent in this passage but I don't think how one typically thinks of a curse is appropriate here for the reasons you say and that it so undermines the characters.

For example, in telling Cersei that Robert would have more children than her, she was telling her that he would cheat on her at an extreme level. Cersei went into the marriage paranoid and distrusting Robert and distrust in a marriage tends to feed of itself and exacerbate. If she had not known this, she might have gone into the marriage thinking she was getting the "maiden's fantasy" or however Ned described Robert and things may have turned out quite differently. I suspect valonqar was used in a similar way.

Changing the subject to the meaning of valonqar.

I don't think that valonqar would take on a completely different meaning, but I do think it's possible it may take on a unique color depending on the respective city's culture and history. This is just exploring on my part, I don't know that this is what valonqar means in Tyroshi or what Maggy intended to say to Cersei. Some of it does parallel nicely to how Cersei and Tyrion feel about each other.

 

· It’s Valyrian, so it may be gender neutral.

· Myr, Tyrosh and Lys are the Quarrelsome Daughters being daughters of Valyria. Since they’re cities, this isn’t exclusive to genetic relationships, nor does it mean the daughters are necessarily sisters, though the implication is there. My take is that Daughters here may hint that valonqar is possibly someone close from whom you can’t extract yourself and the relationship isn’t good. It may not necessarily mean biological family.

· Tyrosh is a harder city, with aggressive slavers and they are known for the their torture devises, I’m guessing designed primarily for use against the other two Daughters (or Sisters?). Valonqar’s definition in Tyrosh if it’s drifted from it’s original Valyrian maybe an extremely condemning way of referring to it’s sisters or the other 2 daughters.

· Quarrelsome or some other synonym reflective of Tyrosh’s relationship with Myr and Lys may be an option for a piggybacked meaning attached to High Valyrian valonqar.

· “Little” may refer to smaller, or I can see a city like Tyrosh viewing its sisters as inferior, so little may also refer to status or just someone disrespected or looked down upon and this person is hostile towards you or some kind of threat. (Cersei was extremely disrespectful  with Maggy and she looked down on Melara as being too low-born for Jaime). This might have been Maggy’s meaning for little.

The Second Sons are also prominent in the Disputed Lands.

 

TWOIAF—The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh

· Over the centuries, their rivalries have been many, and the squabbles and wars between them could—and do—fill volumes.

All this is also true of Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh, those three quarrelsome daughters whose endless feuds and struggles for dominion have so often managed to embroil the kings and knights of Westeros. These three cities surround the large, fertile "heel" of Essos, the promontory that divides the Summer Sea from the narrow sea and was once part of the land bridge that joined that continent to Westeros. The fortress city of Tyrosh stands upon the northernmost and easternmost of the Stepstones, the chain of islands that remained when the Arm of Dorne fell into the sea. Myr rises on the mainland, where an ancient Valyrian dragonroad meets the tranquil waters of a vast gulf known as the Sea of Myrth. Lys is to the south, on a small archipelago of islands in the Summer Sea. All three cities have claimed part (or all) of the lands between them, which we know today as the Disputed Lands, for all attempts to fix borders between the domains of Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys have failed, and countless wars have been fought for their possession.

In history, culture, custom, language, and religion, these three cities have more in common with one another than with any of the other Free Cities. They are mercantile cities, protected by high walls and hired sellswords, dominated by wealth rather than birth, cities where trade is considered a more honorable profession than arms. Lys and Myr are ruled by conclaves of magisters, chosen from amongst the wealthiest and noblest men of the city; Tyrosh is governed by an archon, selected from amongst the members of a similar conclave. All three are slave cities, where bondsmen outnumber the freeborn three to one. All are ports, and the salt sea is their life's blood. Like Valyria, their mother, these three daughters have no established faith. Temples and shrines to many different gods line their streets and crowd their waterfronts.

· Yet the rivalries between them are longrooted, giving rise to deep-seated enmities that have kept them divided, and oft at war with one another, for centuries—to the undoubted benefit of the lords and kings of Westeros, for these three rich and powerful cities, if united, would make for a formidable and dangerous neighbor.

· To this day, Lys remains "a feast for the senses, a balm for the soul." Its pillow houses are famed through all the world, and sunsets here are said to be more beautiful than anywhere else on earth. The Lyseni themselves are beautiful as well, for here more than anywhere else in the known world the old Valyrian bloodlines still run strong.

Tyrosh, an altogether harder city, began as a military outpost, as its inner walls of fused black dragonstone testify. Valryian records tell us the fort was raised initially to control shipping passing through the Stepstones. Not long after the city's founding, however, a unique variety of sea snail was discovered in the waters off the bleak, stony island where the fortress stood. These snails secreted a substance that, when properly treated, yielded a deep dark reddish dye that soon became wildly fashionable amongst the nobility of Valyria. As the snails were found nowhere else, merchants came to Tyrosh by the thousands, and the outpost grew into a major city in the space of a generation. Tyroshi dyers soon learned to produce scarlet, crimson, and deep indigo dyes as well by varying the diet of the snails. Later centuries saw them devise dyes of a hundred other shades and hues, some naturally and some through alchemy. Brightly colored garments won the favor of lords and princes the world over, and the dyes that produced them all came from Tyrosh. The city grew rich, and with wealth came ostentation. Tyroshi delight in flamboyant display, and men and women both delight in dyeing their hair in garish and unnatural colors.

The origins of Myr are murkier. The Myrmen are believed by certain maesters to be akin to the Rhoynar, as many of them share the same olive skin and dark hair as the river people, but this supposed link is likely spurious. There are certain signs that a city stood where Myr now stands even during the Dawn Age and the Long Night, raised by some ancient, vanished people, but the Myr we know was founded by a group of Valyrian merchant adventurers on the site of a walled Andal town whose inhabitants they butchered or enslaved. Trade has been the life of Myr ever since, and Myrish ships have plied the waters of the narrow sea for centuries. The artisans of Myr, many of slave birth, are also greatly renowned; Myrish lace and Myrish tapestries are said to be worth their weight in gold and spice, and Myrish lenses have no equal in all the world. 

· The truth of the combined strength of Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh was proved when these three cities did in fact unite, albeit briefly, in the aftermath of their victory over Volantis at the Battle of the Borderland. Pledging eternal friendship with one another, they came together in 96 AC as the Triarchy, though in Westeros their union was best known as the Kingdom of the Three Daughters. The Triarchy began with the stated aim of cleansing the Stepstones of pirates and corsairs. This was welcomed in the Seven Kingdoms and elsewhere at first, for the pirates greatly stifled trade. The Three Daughters won a swift victory over the pirates, only to begin to demand increasingly exorbitant tolls of passing swifts after gaining control of the islands and the channels between. Soon their rapaciousness surpassed that of the pirates they replaced—especially when the Lyseni started demanding handsome youths and beautiful maidens as their toll.

For a time, the Triarchy found itself overmatched by the power of Corlys Velaryon and Daemon Targaryen and lost much of the Stepstones, but the men of Westeros were soon distracted by their own quarrels, and the Three Daughters reasserted their power—only to be brought down by internal conflicts following the murder of a Lyseni admiral by a rival for the affections of the famous courtesan called the Black Swan (the niece of Lord Swann, she in time came to rule Lys in all but name). The rival alliance of Braavos, Pentos, and Lorath helped bring about the end of the Kingdom of the Three Daughters.

· Whereas Lorath, Norvos, and Qohor were founded for religious reasons, the interests of Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr have always been mercantile. All three cities have large merchant fleets, and their traders sail all the world's seas. All three cities are deeply involved in the slave trade as well. Tyroshi slavers are especially aggressive, even going so far as to sail north beyond the Wall in search of wildling slaves, whilst the Lyseni are famously voracious in seeking out comely young boys and fair maids for their city's famous pillow houses.

· Among the oldest of the free companies is the Second Sons, founded by twoscore younger sons of noble houses who found themselves dispossessed and without prospects. Ever since, it has been a place where landless lords and exiled knights and adventurers could find a home. Many famous names from the Seven Kingdoms have served in the Second Sons at one time or another. Prince Oberyn Martell rode with them before founding his own company; Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf, was counted one of them as well. The most famous Second Son was Ser Aegor Rivers, that bastard son of King Aegon IV known to history as Bittersteel, who fought with them in the first years of his exile before forming the Golden Company, which remains to this day the most powerful and celebrated of these sellsword bands, as well as (some claim) the most honorable.

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 10/20/2017 at 2:07 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes it's a serious question. I fail to see how using the Valyrian word for little brother emphasizes it in any way. Furthermore I think it's extremely coincidental - too coincendital to be a coincidence in fact - that this man uses the very word Maggy used without knowing Maggy used it. 

I don't know even know how to address this. I mean, I already did, but let me try again. Speaking in one language and then abruptly switching to another for the last word of a sentence, one you emphasize, clearly draws attention to it. You can think it's coincidental all you want, but the guy is clearly trying to put on a show and his actions and words fall in line with it lock step, like the old legions of Ghis!

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 10/20/2017 at 2:06 PM, Ckram said:

Would it be as if a Mexican bounty hunter came to Cersei with the head of a dwarf and said "I bring you the head of your hermanito"?

My spanish is rusty but yes I believe so.

Am I missing something? This seems to be a pretty basic concept of presenting.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't know even know how to address this. I mean, I already did, but let me try again. Speaking in one language and then abruptly switching to another for the last word of a sentence, one you emphasize, clearly draws attention to it. You can think it's coincidental all you want, but the guy is clearly trying to put on a show and his actions and words fall in line with it lock step, like the old legions of Ghis!

I agree he is placing some significance on that word I just disagree that the word has to be little brother & that using the Valyrian word for little brother is an odd way to "emphasize" it. 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about it being a coincidence as I can hardly argue against "you can think it's a coincidence all you want" 

[Ckram]

16 hours ago, cgrav said:

Could Valonqar be the proper name of The Strangler poison that kills Cressen and Joffrey? I'm not sure how "little brother" could possibly become a nickname for strangler, unless it's a reference to a historical little brother who strangled someone.

Yes, it could.

Cressen says that "The Strangler" is the name given to the substance by the Maesters of the Citadel, but says it does not remember the name of the substance in two places of Essos. However, it is possible that Cressen (or other maester) would remember if he heard the name of the substance in Braavosi, Lyseni or Asshai'i.

Unfortunately, instead of having Cersei look for the Maester of Casterly Rock to know what "valonqar" meant, GRRM makes her ask her Septa. So, if "valonqar" was really the name of the substance in Braavos, Lys or Asshai, Martin would have crafted the perfect ploy to leave us in the dark.

However, what bothers me most about "valonqar" being the Valyrian name of "The Strangler" is that the narrative will be using this poison for the third time and rather predictably (strangulation = strangler). So I would not bet on that outcome.

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

An interesting idea and quite convincingly presented.

Cersei choked to death by her brother and former lover after she becomes everything that he loathes, that's a tragedy which would make Shakespeare bite his nails in envy. True, Jaime is not exactly able to wrap both his hands around her throat, but pressing his golden hand against her throat would achieve the same effect. There is a lot going on about the two bound to leave the world together as they entered it, two parts of a whole... and IIRC, she even calls Jaime "little brother" at some occasion. [...]

However, what would its narrative value be? A scene of Cersei strangling herself on the device, unable to reach Tommen, would definitely be heartwrenching, but I cannot see any connection that would explain why the Starks' end should be replayed with Cersei.[...] A strangling device which has played very little role so far seems... anticlimactic

1 - Thank you.

2 - I have called for the possibility of Jaime strangling Cersei "a banal domestic violence case," but I agree that the unfolding of events may make the whole thing quite epic and satisfying. I also agree that there is plenty of room for Jaime to be the valonqar, especially after he burned the letter in which Cersei asked him for help.

3 - Although I have struggled to gather arguments to make this theory as convincing as possible, I not unaware that this solution sounds at first quite arbitrary. Cersei being strangled under torture don't seem as a necessary or just sentence, especially since she has already been arrested and defamed and mistreated by a massive crowd in her walk of shame, written in vivid and saddening detail.

However, as I see it, it will take a lot of text even to justify Jaime strangling Cersei. Thus, since GRRM has not irrevocably made Jaime the valonqar so far, this bunch of text can be written differently. In short, it may be that GRRM adds detail to the story that makes us understand that this outcome was already being prepared for a long time.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Changing the subject to the meaning of valonqar.

<snip>

I liked the analysis of Tyrosh's toughness and the influence that this could have on how she sees herself and the other sisters. If the torture device is actually called valonqar, this would provide clues as to the reason for the name.

As for the other hypotheses, I have read similar propositions in other threads regarding the meaning of this word but they have never resulted in coherent theories.

[Ckram]

9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Am I missing something? This seems to be a pretty basic concept of presenting.

I think your point is fair.

However, correct me if I'm wrong: although this way of speaking is not uncommon in the real world, it seemed to escape the book patterns, in which, as far as I can remember, the alternation of foreign words in a sentence is a resource used for terms without direct translation or titles (Khalasar, Hathay, Magnar, etc.) or by characters who don't speak the language spoken in a conversation (like most Dothrakis, Slavers Bay's Slavers, Wildlings, etc.).

On the other hand, the Tyrosh seemed to have arrived at the Red Keep with a rehearsed speech, one that wouldn't offend Cersei's royal ears.

Thus, as much as we can affirm that it was precisely because he was speaking to a noble, well-educated woman that he wished to demonstrate instruction in various languages (which, in fact, he does not demonstrate, since he by definition speaks some sort of Valyrian), I do not recall any conversation in which a "fluent polyglot" character used this expedient to embellish his speech. Maybe I need to re-read stuff.

[Frey family reunion]

Go back and look at the context of the quote.  Maggy is telling Cersei about her children:

Quote

"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye.  Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.  Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Maggy isn't referring to Cersei's younger brother, she is referring to the younger brother out of Cersei's children.  That after their death, the younger son shall wrap his "Hands" about her throat and choke her.  Tommen's first "Hand" was Harys Swyft who was demoted to treasurer and is now in Braavos treating with the Iron Bank.  Tommen's next "Hand" was Orton Merryweather, who's wife is Cersei's confidant, Lady Merryweather.  Both are now back in the Reach.  And Tommen's current “Hand” is Mace Tyrell.  My guess is these "Hands" of Tommen will somehow be Cersei's undoing.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Ckram said:

However, as I see it, it will take a lot of text even to justify Jaime strangling Cersei. Thus, since GRRM has not irrevocably made Jaime the valonqar so far, this bunch of text can be written differently. In short, it may be that GRRM adds detail to the story that makes us understand that this outcome was already being prepared for a long time.

Well, I believe the basis is already there - Cersei's growing instability and fascination with wildfire, which reminds Jaime of Aerys. If Cersei emulates Aerys and burn, or attempt to, KL rather than surrender it, this would drive Jaime over the edge to do with her what he had done with Aerys.

[Seams]

I still haven't finished GRRM's first novel, The Dying of the Light. But I've wondered whether the word valonqar is related to words he created for that sci-fi novel: Kavalar and Kavalan. High Kavalan is the name of a planet that had a cataclysm of some kind or a series of cataclysms (including a variety of plagues), destroying parts of its civilization and leading to social practices that involve men bonding with other men and two men bonding with one woman.

I suspect Kavalan is supposed to be the opposite or a distorted mirror image of another planet in the novel, Avalon. The history and literary buffs in this forum recognize the name Avalon as originating in the tales of King Arthur as the name of an island paradise.

Here is a passage from The Dying of the Light that seems directly addressed to the OP here and to the discussion about why that one word - valonqar - was uttered using the old language while the rest of the prophecy and the presentation by the man from Tyrosh was delivered in the common tongue:

“These matters of courtesy and address – I do not need Jaan to tell me that they are old things, legacies of days both more elaborate and more primitive, dying in this modern time. Today Kavalars sail ships from star to star, talk and trade with creatures we would once have exterminated as demons, even shape planets as we have shaped Worlorn. Old Kavalar, the language of the holdfasts for thousands of your standard years, is scarcely spoken anymore, though a few terms linger on and will continue to linger, since they name realities that can be named only clumsily or not at all in the tongues of the star travelers – realities that would soon vanish if we gave up their names, the Old Kavalar terms. Everything has changed, even we of the High Kavalaan, and Jaan says that we must change still more if we are to fulfill our destiny in the histories of man. Thus the old rules of names and namebonds break down, and even highbonds grow lax in their speech, and Jaantony high-Ironjade goes about calling himself Jaan Vikary.” (from The Dying of the Light, by GRRM)

Just as ASOIAF presents a shadowy old world of Valyria, destroyed in a vaguely-understood cataclysm, The Dying of the Light presents Kavalar and its lost and changing language. There is also exploration of the importance of names in TDotL, and what people call themselves or want others to call them, and whether other people respect those wishes. Since Tyrion is often referred to as The Half-Man or the imp or the dwarf, it seems as if this is an idea that GRRM continued to explore in ASOIAF.

In the ASOIAF books, I have wondered about characters with a letter Q in their names: Qhorin Halfhand, Moqorro, Qyburn. They seem to be people who have crossed into a land of magic but then came back to provide guidance to one of the heroes in Westeros. But I may be reading too much into this, and my faulty memory is almost certainly leaving out some Q names or Q words that don't fit this interpretation.

It's probably also worth discussing Septa Saranella, who told Cersei the meaning of the word "valonqar." She was probably from Westeros, so not a native speaker of a Valyrian dialect. The Westerosi origin I infer from her taking orders in the Faith of the Seven, although there are some practitioners still in Essos who might have made their way to Westeros. But I suspect Tywin would have employed only a woman from a noble house of Westeros as a governess for his valuable daughter. The name ending in -ella is often associated with crones, for what that's worth, and GRRM does hint that crones represent or possess wisdom and insight. (An exception might be Sarella / Alleras, a Sand Snake daughter of Oberyn Martel who appears to be disguised as a novice at the Citadel.)

It's impossible to guess whether Septa Saranella might have an agenda, and would have misled Cersei about the meaning of the word, or would have given her only a partial explanation. On the other hand, the septas become Cersei's jailers and persecutors later in the books, and they seem to work as a team. If Saranella was the first of a group of septas manipulating House Lannister or the houses of Westeros nobility, she may have had reason to give Cersei limited information about the word.

I can't imagine Cersei giving Saranella the full context in which she hear the word when she asks its meaning - I suspect the household would have been in some distress over the mysterious death of Melara Heatherspoon, so Cersei probably concealed the whole fortune-seeking foray to Maggie the Frog. Therefore Saranella had no reason to suspect anything about a prophecy or threat in Cersei's inquiry, and would have given her straight information to the best of her ability.

On the other hand, it might be that "nice, high-born girls" don't speak of certain things. If the word "valonqar" means "the little brother who brings dragons," or "younger brother who tortures his sibling" or something even more dangerous or menacing, maybe Saranella conveyed only "little brother" in her answer to Cersei, because dragons are extinct and nice girls do not think about such things.

It is interesting, though, that GRRM gives Saranella a name when her entire "role" seems to be defining that word for the reader. Is he dropping a hint that will match up with later information not yet revealed? Aside from Sarella Sand, the closest matching name I can think of in the books is Serra, the deceased wife of Illyrio Mopatis. We can be fairly sure she is not Saranella because they would have been alive at the same time in different parts of the planet, I believe. And now Serra's hands are preserved in Illyrio's apartments in Pentos. Maybe we will see the elderly Saranella again when the action of the books moves to the Reach and the Westerlands.

[cgrav]

17 hours ago, Ckram said:

However, what bothers me most about "valonqar" being the Valyrian name of "The Strangler" is that the narrative will be using this poison for the third time and rather predictably (strangulation = strangler). So I would not bet on that outcome.

I agree I wouldn't want the poison coming up again in a main plot. In this case I think the Valonqar name is a type of thing that connotes treachery and betrayal. It's like a trickster trope who Cersei expects to punish her for her excess or rub salt in her wounds.

[Apoplexy]

On 10/19/2017 at 3:41 PM, Ckram said:

7. Implications of "valonqar" being a torture device and not a person

If this theory proved to be correct, GRRM would have actually confused both Cersei and the readers and could lead Cersei to a much gruesome death rather than a simple strangulation, which if performed by a man would sound like a common death in domestic violence (especially if performed by Jaime).

I like this theory. When I read Feast, I was quick to believe that the valonqar had to be Jaime because of the 'golden hands'. But I've reconsidered since.

Cersei believes it to be Tyrion. GRRM anticipates that his readers will see through Cersei's miscalculation and hence tries to distract us with Jaime as a possibility. But it might end up to being something completely different in the end.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

These matters of courtesy and address – I do not need Jaan to tell me that they are old things, legacies of days both more elaborate and more primitive, dying in this modern time. Today Kavalars sail ships from star to star, talk and trade with creatures we would once have exterminated as demons, even shape planets as we have shaped Worlorn. Old Kavalar, the language of the holdfasts for thousands of your standard years, is scarcely spoken anymore, though a few terms linger on and will continue to linger, since they name realities that can be named only clumsily or not at all in the tongues of the star travelers – realities that would soon vanish if we gave up their names, the Old Kavalar terms. Everything has changed, even we of the High Kavalaan, and Jaan says that we must change still more if we are to fulfill our destiny in the histories of man. Thus the old rules of names and namebonds break down, and even highbonds grow lax in their speech, and Jaantony high-Ironjade goes about calling himself Jaan Vikary.” (from The Dying of the Light, by GRRM)

Yes. This is how I interpret the use of Valonqar. Not that Valyrian is not used any more but that there is no good translation for the word being used. Much the same as there is no word for thank you in dothraki - there is no word for Valonqar in english. 

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

On the other hand, it might be that "nice, high-born girls" don't speak of certain things. If the word "valonqar" means "the little brother who brings dragons," or "younger brother who tortures his sibling" or something even more dangerous or menacing, maybe Saranella conveyed only "little brother" in her answer to Cersei, because dragons are extinct and nice girls do not think about such things.

I think it's impossible to tell if she was purposely misleading Cersei or possibly just didn't know the correct answer but I like this possibility. 

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

It is interesting, though, that GRRM gives Saranella a name when her entire "role" seems to be defining that word for the reader. Is he dropping a hint that will match up with later information not yet revealed? Aside from Sarella Sand, the closest matching name I can think of in the books is Serra, the deceased wife of Illyrio Mopatis. We can be fairly sure she is not Saranella because they would have been alive at the same time in different parts of the planet, I believe. And now Serra's hands are preserved in Illyrio's apartments in Pentos. Maybe we will see the elderly Saranella again when the action of the books moves to the Reach and the Westerlands.

It is interesting. Something I thought of while reading your post - we don't know Maggy the frogs real name.