A Tyrosh torture device called "valonqar"

[Ckram]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Go back and look at the context of the quote.  Maggy is telling Cersei about her children:

I'm aware of this interpretation. The translation you propose is "When Cersei kids were dead, and she have shed all the tears she could, a metaphorical hand of 'the younger child' (Tommen) will literally or metaphorically choke the life out of Cersei".

However, what prevents me to agree with you is the fact that Maggy's fortune telling is insanelly accurate and literal (except ont the "Can you smell her breath?" to Melara, of course; but that's not fortune telling - it's a question, not an answer).

That's why I think all the creative interpretations (the Tyrosh device, the crippled Jaime, Hands of the King, etc) sound so unfit. And that's also why the literal interpretations (Wightfied Tommen, Tyrion, any little brother available in the world) are difficult to discard, althought they're, in my opnion, poorly elaborated and imagined under a false premise.

Let me explainmy point: if GRRM didn't care that everybody easily guessed who "the valonqar" was there was no need for Maggy to say "little brother" in Valyrian (High or Bastard). Cersei already thinks it is Tyrion and it's not any difficult to think of a wightfied Tommen since (1) Maggy tells us that Tommen will die before Cersei, (2) We know Tommen is Cersei's youngest child, (3) It's safe to expect that no one will be safe from the Others during winter, even King Tommen, and (4) we were repeatedly shown how fresh wights tend to strangle living people.

On the other hand, I hope you agree it would look like an even more arbitrary fulfillment if "the valonqar" were any of the other littlle brothers available in the books.

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, I believe the basis is already there - Cersei's growing instability and fascination with wildfire, which reminds Jaime of Aerys. If Cersei emulates Aerys and burn, or attempt to, KL rather than surrender it, this would drive Jaime over the edge to do with her what he had done with Aerys.

Yes, it is already possible to see a foundation being prepared, but I'm not sure if GRRM will raise a building on top of it.

Maybe we are being deceived by these events, which might be availed to enrich other characthers' stories (such as [1] Gregor Clegane's failed execution gave birth to the BWB, [2] the false offer of Harrenhal to Petyr by Tyrion that end up giving Petyr a new goal, or [3] the frustration of Robb's final plans to retake the North allowed George to safeguard part of the bannermen for purposes still unknown).

Since you have presented a short script for the development of the "Jaime = valonqar" theory, let me also speculate a script for "Tyrosh torture device = valonqar" (please don't judge it based upon my literary talent):

<fanfiction> In the middle of the harshest winter in 8000 years, Jaime helps LSH's gang to secretly enter the Red Keep in exchange of his life and Brienne's and Pod's freedom. The gang takes over Maegor's Holdfast and proposes to hang Cersei. However, LSH has other plans: she wants Cersei to watch her last child die as Catelyn "saw" (she still don't know that Bran and Rickon are alive).

Cersei tries to set fire to the building with wyldfire, but is prevented (by Jaime, if you will). This Aerysh attitude causes LSH to remind of Brandon's death and asks someone to look for the Tyrosh device in the black cells. The device is atached to Cersei's neck while a sword is put out of reach and Cersei dies trying to catch it while watching his children hang (Jaime can die hanged as well, if you want a plot twist that accomplishes Cersei's prediction that she and Jaime would die together). </fanfiction>

10 hours ago, Seams said:

Just as ASOIAF presents a shadowy old world of Valyria, destroyed in a vaguely-understood cataclysm, The Dying of the Light presents Kavalar and its lost and changing language. [...]

It is interesting, though, that GRRM gives Saranella a name when her entire "role" seems to be defining that word for the reader. Is he dropping a hint that will match up with later information not yet revealed? [...]

1 - That was pretty good analogy.

2 - Wow... You now caught me off guard. It does looks suspicous. I think the fact that the name resembles that of another septa (Unella, in this case) can be an indication of kinship or conationality. This may indicate that Unella had heard of Cersei before or that she could speak High Valyrian. Or we may see in the future another "-ella" who knows High Valyrian.

I wouldn't bet on a secret identity, but here's one theory, just to tease the devil: Since Oberyn visited Casterly Rock when he was a teenager, maybe Saranella is the mother of the blonde Tyene Sand.

9 hours ago, cgrav said:

It's like a trickster trope who Cersei expects to punish her for her excess or rub salt in her wounds.

Cersei expects to be punished? What do you mean by that?

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But it might end up to being something completely different in the end.

That is to be expected, for if it were easy to guess, there would be no point in making a mystery out of a foreign word, especially one that has a trivial and easily translatable meaning. Now, as I said above, it is difficult to rule out any possibility at this point.

[Apoplexy]

4 hours ago, Ckram said:

That is to be expected, for if it were easy to guess, there would be no point in making a mystery out of a foreign word, especially one that has a trivial and easily translatable meaning. Now, as I said above, it is difficult to rule out any possibility at this point.

The only problem I see to a torture device being used is that Maggy says the valonqar will wrap 'his' hands around Cersei's neck. Maggy has been extremely accurate about Cersei and Melara, so why would she use the pronoun 'his' ? That could lead one to believe it would be a person, just probably not Jaime since he doesn't have two hands.

[cgrav]

4 hours ago, Ckram said:

Cersei expects to be punished? What do you mean by that?

She has a faith/delusion in her own greatness and is moving to gain power for herself. She already thinks it's Tyrion, who she perceives as envious of her.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Ckram said:

I'm aware of this interpretation. The translation you propose is "When Cersei kids were dead, and she have shed all the tears she could, a metaphorical hand of 'the younger child' (Tommen) will literally or metaphorically choke the life out of Cersei".

However, what prevents me to agree with you is the fact that Maggy's fortune telling is insanelly accurate and literal (except ont the "Can you smell her breath?" to Melara, of course; but that's not fortune telling - it's a question, not an answer).

That's why I think all the creative interpretations (the Tyrosh device, the crippled Jaime, Hands of the King, etc) sound so unfit. And that's also why the literal interpretations (Wightfied Tommen, Tyrion, any little brother available in the world) are difficult to discard, althought they're, in my opnion, poorly elaborated and imagined under a false premise.

Let me explainmy point: if GRRM didn't care that everybody easily guessed who "the valonqar" was there was no need for Maggy to say "little brother" in Valyrian (High or Bastard). Cersei already thinks it is Tyrion and it's not any difficult to think of a wightfied Tommen since (1) Maggy tells us that Tommen will die before Cersei, (2) We know Tommen is Cersei's youngest child, (3) It's safe to expect that no one will be safe from the Others during winter, even King Tommen, and (4) we were repeatedly shown how fresh wights tend to strangle living people.

On the other hand, I hope you agree it would look like an even more arbitrary fulfillment if "the valonqar" were any of the other littlle brothers available in the books.

Maggy may be accurate, but she leaves the specifics fairly ambiguous.  Let's take Melara's prophecy for instance. 

Quote

"Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out.

"Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy.  "Worms will have your maidenhead.  Your death is here tonight, little one.  Can you smell her breath?  She is very close."

It would have been less ambiguous for Maggy to have said, no you won't marry Jaime, because his sister, you know the girl standing right next to you,  is going to push you into a well for daring to set your sights on her brother/lover.

Likewise, Maggy isn't going to give Cersei a specific unambiguous answer either.  But to be fair to Maggy, it is Cersei who misinterprets the prophecy, because Maggy never tells her that it's Cersei's little brother who is going to be the cause of her death.

And this brings me back to the original point of the OP.  I think there is a reason that the Tyroshi bounty hunter calls Tyrion the valonqar, but it has nothing to do with it being some sort of Tyroshi torture device.  And I agree that it's not some random little brother. 

George loves the misdirection, and he accomplishes this by the way he set up the prophecy.  If the prophecy was that Cersei is going to have three children, that will all die, and the little brother will be the cause of her death, it's a bit clearer that the quote refers to Tommen.

But instead he starts off with a made up term, Valonqar, and he introduces this term well before we are made aware of the prophecy.  The first time it is used is through Cersei's concerns over her brother.

Quote

My children will be safe, Tommen's throne will be secure, and my twisted little valonqar will be short a head and rotting.

 and again:

Quote

It is blood I need, not water.  Tyrion's blood, the blood of the valonqar.

And then valonqar is repeated again when she meets with the bounty hunter and once again, Tyrion is identified as the valonqar.

So then when we get to the actual prophecy, we are seeing it through Cersei's lens.  We've already been conditioned to think of the valonqar as Cersei's little brother.  So that's how we read the prophecy.  Yet Maggie never tells Cersei that it's her valonqar that will be her demise.  And if you look at the context of the quote, the most accurate reading is that the valonqar further specifies the subject of the prophecy which is Cersei's three children.

[Ckram]

On 23/10/2017 at 2:27 AM, Apoplexy said:

Maggy has been extremely accurate about Cersei and Melara, so why would she use the pronoun 'his' ?

Yes, this is one of the inconsistencies of the theory I presented.

On 23/10/2017 at 2:53 AM, cgrav said:

She already thinks it's Tyrion

Oh, she expects to be punished by Tyrion. Ok, got it.

On 23/10/2017 at 2:06 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Let's take Melara's prophecy for instance. [...]

And then valonqar is repeated again when she meets with the bounty hunter and once again, Tyrion is identified as the valonqar. [...]

And if you look at the context of the quote, the most accurate reading is that the valonqar further specifies the subject of the prophecy which is Cersei's three children. [...]

3

1 - I avoided analyzing the part of the prophecy concerning Melara because, although accurate, one of the possible interpretations (which you have just presented and which is preferred by many people) consists of a non-self-executing prophecy.

See, in my opinion, if Cersei killed Melara (and not only watched or did nothing to prevent - as the other interpretation advocates), the part of the valonqar also becomes liable to occur by virtue of a stupid but willful act of Cersei towards deliberately fulfilling Maggy's prophecy.

This (at least apparent) contradiction displeases me, which is why I have not yet formed a reasonable conviction about this part of the prophecy.

2 - That's the original idea.

3 - Analyzing the prophecy literally, yes. For the only options left would be Tyrion, Jaime and Tommen, but since Jaime doesn't have both hands and we tend to believe that Cersei is wrong about being Tyrion the one left is Tommen.

[Ckram]

But before I let this thread fall by the wayside, I wanted to record a detail that I forgot to mention in the OP.

After Cersei concludes that the head in the chest of the Tyrosh is not the one of Tyrion, she sends it to Qyburn (that is, to be tortured, ironically).

[...] House Lannister pays its debts, and so shall you. Ser Meryn, take this fraud to Qyburn."
Ser Meryn Trant took the Tyroshi by the arm and hauled him off, still protesting. [...] (AFFC - Cersei VIII)

I'll edit the OP.

[Seams]

On 10/21/2017 at 2:38 PM, Seams said:

I suspect that the symbolism around Penny and Groat is also part of this pattern. The fake beheading in the wedding feast jousting match -immediately preceding Joffrey's real death by choking - and Groat's real death by beheading are particularly relevant (especially with the Tyroshi man presenting Cersei with her Valonqar, which may be Groat's head). I have outlined in other threads my suspicions that Penny and Groat are linked to Littlefinger and to dragon eggs. Penny is a symbolic Cersei figure. She also plays an important role in "knighting" Tyrion: teaching him to joust and providing him with (initially) wooden armor.

 

I've been thinking about Groat and possible mis-translation by Septa Saranella and the Tyroshi reward-seeker. What if "Valonqar" is the word for dwarf? When Cersei asked Saranella about the word, maybe Septa Saranella said, "Your little brother is a valonqar," and Cersei took it to mean that the direct translation was "little brother" when the word actually means "half man" or something like that.

The man from Tyrosh brings Cersei a head in a box, knowing she is looking for a dwarf's head, and says, "I've brought you your Valonqar." He means that it's the head of a little person but Cersei believes that he means it is Tyrion's head. Maybe the man from Tyrosh even knows that it is Groat's head, but figures he might still claim the reward if this is one of those situations where people are willing to accept "close enough" and are just glad to pretend that the case is closed and justice has been served.

But what if Groat really did kill Joffrey? Maybe the Tyroshi reward-seeker knew more than we give him credit for.

Groat really was present at the death of Joffrey, and he really does escape right after the feast, we are told later by Penny. What if he was the one who slipped the poison into Joffrey's food while the rest of us were reading about Joffrey dumping wine on Tyrion's head? We know that a dwarf could fit under the table because Tyrion goes under at one point to retrieve Joffrey's cup, I believe. Groat would have no personal motive to kill Joffrey, as far as we know, but he could be employed by Littlefinger or someone else.

Groat is linked to Tyrion later, of course, because Tyrion wears his armor and rides his pig. (I think Pretty Pig is another hint about Littlefinger: Pretty / Petyr wordplay.) But Groat might also be linked (symbolically) to Ser Dontos. Both are fake knights - Groat because he jousts in wooden armor on a pig and Ser Dontos because he became a fool. Dontos hits Sansa over the head with a melon and a fake beheading using a melon is part of Groat's act with Penny. We believe that Ser Dontos gave Sansa the poison in her hair net. Maybe that was a red herring or part of Littlefinger's larger plan to mess with Sansa's head, making her feel complicit in regicide, while the real poison was delivered by Groat and/or Penny.

[Ckram]

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

When Cersei asked Saranella about the word, maybe Septa Saranella said, "Your little brother is a valonqar," and Cersei took it to mean that the direct translation was "little brother" when the word actually means "half man" or something like that.

But in this case, there would be no other suspect but Tyrion or some dwarf of no importance.

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

Maybe that was a red herring or part of Littlefinger's larger plan to mess with Sansa's head, making her feel complicit in regicide, while the real poison was delivered by Groat and/or Penny.

 

I think we have no reason to assume that other than the fact that we have no actual evidence to the contrary, since as the wiki says "it was Oppo who met with Oswell; Penny did not, Oppo always made the arrangements".

Anyway, I wouldn't bet on that.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

57 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've been thinking about Groat and possible mis-translation by Septa Saranella and the Tyroshi reward-seeker. What if "Valonqar" is the word for dwarf? When Cersei asked Saranella about the word, maybe Septa Saranella said, "Your little brother is a valonqar," and Cersei took it to mean that the direct translation was "little brother" when the word actually means "half man" or something like that.

Nice. So many different, viable, options for her prophecy. 

 

31 minutes ago, Ckram said:

But in this case, there would be no other suspect but Tyrion or some dwarf of no importance.

I don't think it would have to be another dwarf of no importance. For instance if Valonqar meant half-man it could be referring to Theon who could be called half a man by some, or Varys, or any eunuch for that matter. Or maybe UnGregor. He could be considered a half-man. Really this would fit for any trait particular to Tyrion. Like Mismatched eyes. Or I suppose a trait particular to Jaime because Saranella doesn't sat Tyrion, she says little brother. Although I can't think of any trait particular to Jaime that this would fit. Of course he is one handed now but he wasn't then so Septa Saranella wouldn't have referred to Cersei's little brother if Valonqar meant one handed man. Although maybe losing his sword hand would qualify him to be half of a man. 

This wouldn't really explain why the Tyroshi brought her a dwarf though unless the word meant dwarf. Unless he knows it means half man & knows he is looking for a dwarf.