Inconsistencies, plot holes, and missing details in TSOTD, TRP, and TPATQ

[The Grey Wolf]

Title says it all folks. I'll start off with TSOTD:

1. Missing details from TWOIAF and the Two Readings: Aegon I died with an orange peel in his mouth, the rumor that Visenya poisoned Aenys, the rumor that a mason who worked on the Red Keep murdered Maegor, the idea that Maegor was a broken man by the end of his reign due to the death of his mother and that he descended into madness because of the stillborn monsters his seed produced.

2. The use of slander is highly uneven and we are given no names for any of the sources.

3. What happened to Ronnel Arryn's Stark wife and did they have any children?

4. What was the relationship between Maegor and Aenys like in the years 37-39 AC while Maegor was Hand? Could GRRM insert a Dornish War in there? (My idea here is that Maegor attacks Dorne in revenge for the Vulture King after convincing dreamy Aenys of how great it would be if the sons of the Conqueror completed his life's work by bringing Dorne under the aegis of the Iron Throne only for Aenys to suddenly call it off either on a whim or because of a peace delegation from Deria in which he is reminded both that his mother died fighting the Dornish and that they had feasted as friends not too long ago.)

5. Why were Rhaena and Aegon besieged in Crakehall Castle? (Lord Varys's suggestion was to have the Poor Fellows launch a night attack on the royal progress, killing Prince Aegon's dragon and wounding/driving off Dreamfyre.)

6. What happened to Ser Raymont Baratheon? Also, did he save the entire royal family (as TWOIAF claims) or only Aenys (as TSOTD claims)?

7. Could GRRM please include Maegor's eulogy for his father and Alyssa's dirge for her husband?

8. Why isn't there any rumors about the effects of Maegor's head injury and coma a la Baelor I?

9. What happened to the Dornish Poor Fellows? (Lord Varys's idea was that they made up most of the Vulture King's rabble.)

10. What happened to the Warrior's Sons of Gulltown? (A few ideas here: They got taken out by pro-crown forces, they got taken out by Maegor when they attempted to launch an attack by sea on the capital, or they marched out the Bloody Gate to join their brethren in the Riverlands.)

11. Where is Maegor's army when he marches on Oldtown?

12. Is it just me or does Maegor outlaw the Faith Militant three times in TSOTD? Also, isn't Grand Maester Myres a bit of a rehash of Gawen?

13. Why didn't Prince Aegon and Prince Viserys have dragons when their older and younger siblings did?

14. How did Quicksilver get from Dragonstone to the Westerlands? (Lord Varys had two suggestions: That either a Velaryon Kingsguard or a bastard son of Aenys named Aemon mounted Quicksilver in an attempt to bring help to the two royals but died saving their lives, allowing Prince Aegon to claim his father's dragon for himself.)

15. Why is a random bastard from Barrowton fighting for Prince Aegon? Also, wouldn't it be nice if Maegor made a Bolton one of his Kingsguard?

16. Who were the two Kingsguard killed by the Fighting Fool at the Battle of the Great Fork?

17. How were Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Alyssa able to hide for so long in Maegor's backyard at Storm's End when Tyanna found Rhaena's twin daughters halfway across the continent? (Lord Varys's idea was that they escaped on dragonback and hid on an island in the Narrow Sea for some time before contacting Lord Baratheon.)

18. How were Vermithor and Silverwing able to hide at Storm's End when Rhaena couldn't hide Dreamfyre in the Westerlands?

19. How in the hell did Lord Robar think Vermithor and Silverwing would be enough to challenge Balerion? Even with the addition of Dreamfyre a direct confrontation with Maegor would be incredibly risky and Alyssa was down to her last son, not to mention no plan as to how to counteract the Black Dread's OPness is mentioned in the text. (My suggestion would be to have Alyssa claim Vhagar. Given that she has Targaryen blood and Laenor/Laena had no trouble claiming dragons themselves that should be within the realm of possibility.)

20. How is Vermithor the oldest and biggest dragon after Vhagar, Balerion, and Meraxes given what we're told of Dreamfyre?

21. Why were the Faith's independent courts enough of a big deal for Jaehaerys I to deal with the issue when it never came up during the reigns of either Aenys or Maegor?

22. Given that in AFFC the Faith Militant is said to have included dragonslayers amongst its numbers shouldn't we see more assassination attempts on both Maegor and the dragons, particularly vulnerable hatchlings?

23. Who were the two Kingsguard that abandoned Maegor?

24. Lord Rowan is mentioned as marching in support of Maegor to the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye but then never shows up for it. Also, his heir is killed by the Faith Militant but he latter supports them against Maegor anyway? What the hell?

25. GRRM needs to make up his mind on whether or not Lord Baratheon is named Robar or Rogar. (Personally, I much prefer the former over the later.)

26. GRRM needs to fix the dates and Hightower family tree, including the fact that there is no year 0 AC.

Anything else?

Edited November 24, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[Lord Varys]

I'm going to make a few real editing decisions. We have those two sentences here:

Quote

Aenys had been at Highgarden on his progress when his father died, but Quicksilver returned him to Dragonstone for the funeral.

and

Quote

Thereafter His Grace set out for Oldtown to receive the blessing of the High Septon, traveling by way of Riverrun, Lannisport, and Highgarden on a grand royal progress.

In light of the fact that Prince Aenys (and presumably Alyssa, too) had already been on a royal progress getting as far as Highgarden, the logical conclusion there is that this progress continued when King Aenys decided to go to Oldtown for his anointing.

In that sense the sentence should be reformulated alongside those lines:

Quote

Thereafter His Grace set out for Oldtown to receive the blessing of the High Septon, traveling by way of Highgarden on a grand royal progress. Eventually he would return to King's Landing after also visiting Lannisport [, Casterly Rock,] and Riverrun.

That way Aenys' weirdo travel arrangements makes sense. There is no way that the man first went to Riverrun, Lannisport, and Highgarden before he finally reached Oldtown. Especially not since he is in Riverrun when the crisis of Black Harren begins, and we do know that he did not continue from there to Lannisport, Highgarden, and Oldtown but returned back to KL.

Thus Riverrun must have been the last stop on the grand royal progress prior to the beginning of the uprising.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

4. What was the relationship between Maegor and Aenys like in the years 37-39 AC while Maegor was Hand? Could GRRM insert a Dornish War in there? (My idea here is that Maegor attacks Dorne in revenge for the Vulture King after convincing dreamy Aenys of how great it would be if the sons of the Conqueror completed his life's work by bringing Dorne under the aegis of the Iron Throne only for Aenys to suddenly call it off either on a whim or because of a peace delegation from Deria in which he is reminded both that his mother died fighting the Dornish and that they had feasted as friends not too long ago.)

I'd actually like to learn more about the domestic lives of the brothers during those two years. How well did they get along. That could be rather interesting, showing the few not-fucked-up characteristics of Maegor.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

6. What happened to Ser Raymont Baratheon? Also, did he save the entire royal family (as TWOIAF claims) or only Aenys (as TSOTD claims)?

Not sure if that's really a contradiction. We know Aenys' family was with him, so chances are very high that they would also have been killed after the king was dead.

What's a contradiction there is that TWoIaF claims they were in the Red Keep when they were in fact in the royal manse on Visenya's Hill which was the royal residence in KL while no one could yet live in the Red Keep.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

7. Could GRRM please include Maegor's eulogy for his father and Alyssa's dirge for her husband?

Could make for some interesting side bars. And especially the dirge could be in rhymes.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

11. Where is Maegor's army when he marches on Oldtown?

This whole section reads as if a lot of stuff is missing.

There is this mistake here, which should read this way:

Quote

The Dowager Queen mounted Vhagar and brought fire and blood to the Reach Riverlands as once she had to Dorne. In a single night, the seats of House Blanetree, House Terrick, House Deddings, House Lychester, and House Wayn were set aflame.

Maegor then deals with the Westerlords, but nobody actually deals with the pious lords in the Reach who are standing with the High Septon. One assumes that not only more than a few Hightower bannermen but also many other Reach houses - the Osgreys among them - stood with the Faith Militant.

To break the Faith and the Hightowers as efficiently as they did Maegor and Visenya needed a sizable army in addition to their two dragons. Not to mention that they must have announced their coming and issued an ultimatum - yield or burn - or else things in Oldtown would never have unfolded the way they did.

I mean, without an ultimatum rising the Targaryen banners could have been just been a ruse to trick the dragonriders into landing in the city where they could be separated from Vhagar and Balerion and then be killed.

Not to mention that nobody would have likely killed the High Septon and subsequently yielded if they were not convinced that the Targaryens would then (hopefully) spare the city. That means there must have been an ultimatum or else they would have to hope that Visenya and Maegor magically learn - while flying their dragons - that they really want to yield and that the High Septon is dead.

Not to mention that Oldtown would have never known that the dragons would come the next day if the Targaryens had not announced that they were coming. Dragons fly. They are much faster than messengers. And if the Targaryens were really moving directly from the West and the Riverlands to Oldtown then nobody in Oldtown could (or would) have expected this.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

12. Is it just me or does Maegor outlaw the Faith Militant three times in TSOTD? Also, isn't Grand Maester Myres a bit of a rehash of Gawen?

In a sense, yeah, but Gawen spoke in favor of the 'correct' succession while Myres spoke against Maegor's polygamy. It is similar behavior but different issues. And, you know, it could have been Grand Maester Myres Hightower (or a Flowers with a Hightower father, or an in-law of Lord Martyn, etc.). Such a man would have certainly spoken in favor of Ceryse Hightower.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

15. Why is a random bastard from Barrowton fighting for Prince Aegon? Also, wouldn't it be nice if Maegor made a Bolton one of his Kingsguard?

More information on the Kingsguard would definitely be nice. But the first thing is really not an issue. Bastards and younger sons (like that younger son of the Lord of Griffin's Roost) have to make a living and a career of their own. Thus they end up in rather unexpected places occasionally.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

21. Why were the Faith's independent courts enough of a big deal for Jaehaerys I to deal with the issue when it never came up during the reigns of either Aenys or Maegor?

I don't think there were so much an issue for Jaehaerys I but rather for his lords and people. Now that the Faith was broken the corruption within the Faith and the privileges they had in comparison to the lords and smallfolk would have become a much more visible issue.

Maegor didn't really care about bettering the lives of his subjects. In that sense, it wouldn't have mattered to him all that much that the Faith could sit in judgment over its own. Or rather - he did not get around to notice and do something about that.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

22. Given that in AFFC the Faith Militant is said to have included dragonslayers amongst its numbers shouldn't we see more assassination attempts on both Maegor and the dragons, particularly vulnerable hatchlings?

Hatchlings on Dragonstone would have been comparably safe, one imagines.

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

23. Who were the two Kingsguard that abandoned Maegor?

I guess that could be revealed in the piece on Jaehaerys I. It is not unlikely that one of these knights ended up becoming the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard under Jaehaerys I.

[Tygett Lannister]

10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

13. Why didn't Prince Aegon and Prince Viserys have dragons when their older and younger siblings did?

They didn't have the dragon genes. While younger siblings did.

[The Grey Wolf]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:10 AM, Tygett Greenshield said:

They didn't have the dragon genes. While younger siblings did.

That doesn't make any sense.

27. Anyway, another typo in TSOTD is Loadows instead of Lord Meadows in the section on the Battle of Stonebridge.

@Lord Varys

Apart from the Gerardys-Orwyle conundrum are there any plot holes or inconsistencies in TRP and TPATQ that can't be explained by a lack of access to the full text?

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[The Grey Wolf]

28. Also, is Ser Owen of the Kingsguard a member of House Bushy or is House Bush a separate noble family? And what about Poore and Whistler?

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[Tygett Lannister]

14 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

That doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, another typo in TSOTD is Loadows instead of Lord Meadows in the section on the Battle of Stonebridge.

If your mother has black hair and your mother has blonde. You have black, does that means your younger brothers can't have blonde?

[The Grey Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

If your mother has black hair and your mother has blonde. You have black, does that means your younger brothers can't have blonde?

There's a league of difference between hair color and dragon-riding, particularly in a world like ASOIAF where genetics is oversimplified. Plus, there are no examples in the pre-Dance era of a Targaryen failing to bond with a dragon.

[Tygett Lannister]

4 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

There's a league of difference between hair color and dragon-riding, particularly in a world like ASOIAF where genetics is oversimplified. Plus, there are no examples in the pre-Dance era of a Targaryen failing to bond with a dragon.

Exactly they are even simpler than in real life. Genetics follow simple Mendelian rules. And by Mendelian rules someone getting dragon riding genes and someone not from same parents is completely possible, you can't just say it doesn't makes any sense.

Of course there are? Aegon one before Aegon the first has Maegon, Aerys and Daemion. Maegon dies without children while Aerys has 3 children who also all die without children. And each of them (Maegor, Aerys, his 3 children) were all lords for short periods of time they didn't die at the same time. Maybe they tried to ride a dragon and died?

Like watch PJ's dragon genetics videos if you want more examples.

[The Grey Wolf]

46 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Exactly they are even simpler than in real life. Genetics follow simple Mendelian rules. And by Mendelian rules someone getting dragon riding genes and someone not from same parents is completely possible, you can't just say it doesn't makes any sense.

Of course there are? Aegon one before Aegon the first has Maegon, Aerys and Daemion. Maegon dies without children while Aerys has 3 children who also all die without children. And each of them (Maegor, Aerys, his 3 children) were all lords for short periods of time they didn't die at the same time. Maybe they tried to ride a dragon and died?

Like watch PJ's dragon genetics videos if you want more examples.

With all due respect I find PJ's theories to be utter shit.

Edited October 21, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[Tygett Lannister]

13 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

With all due respect I find PJ's theories to be utter shit.

Well I think this one to be pretty good and I see it can be a good answer to your question.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

 

@Lord Varys

Apart from the Gerardys-Orwyle conundrum are there any plot holes or inconsistencies in TRP and TPATQ that can't be explained by a lack of access to the full text?

I draw up that list in a mail to Ran a couple of weeks ago after I went through TRP and TPatQ again:
 
Some of the things are glaring errors, others very easy to miss.
 
- Jaehaerys I as the son of Aegon, son of Aenys I, rather than Aenys I's
younger son.
 
- Prince Daeron the Daring as Aegon II's son rather than his younger
brother (a couple of times in TPatQ)
 
- Jaehaerys I as father rather than grandfather of Viserys I (early on in TPatQ). At least in the sneak preview we got years back before 'Dangerous Women' came out. In the published version it got corrected.
 
- Prince Daemon as Master of Coin for a couple of months vs. Lyman Beesbury serving both Jaehaerys I & Viserys I in that capacity (not necessarily a contradiction but it would be interesting to know what Beesbury did while Daemon was Master of Coin - was he dismissed from the council entirely, or just given another office?).
 
- Mushroom is said to have attended Viserys I in his last couple of days something that might be at odds with the fact that he was the one who carried Rhaenyra's stillborn girl Visenya down to be cremated as well as the fact that he wasn't at KL when Lyman Beesbury was killed (both as per TWoIaF in your words and the lengthy Gyldayn quote on the stillbirth).
 
- Were Viserys-Aemma truly married for a literal decade in 103 AC, or is that just an approximation? It would mean that the 16-year-old Viserys married an 11-year-old Aemma in 93 AC (Daella married Rodrik Arryn in 80 AC and died giving birth to Aemma in 82 AC). There could be a plot reason why it was deemed appropriate for Viserys to marry his child cousin but as per George's own rules Aemma would have been deemed a proper bride only 2-3 years later. A marriage in 94-95 AC, say, would still give her sufficient time for miscarriages and the one son she had prior to or after Rhaenyra's birth in 97 AC. Another way to deal with that would to change Aemma's birth date but that's established canon as per TWoIaF & TRP.
 
- It would also be good to know the name of Aemma's son who died in the cradle - the one prior to 'the heir for a day'.
 
- TRP contains that sentence: 'Ser Otto Hightower had continued in that office, serving the grandson as he had the father; an able man, all agreed, though many found him proud, brusque, and haughty.'
 
-> It should read 'serving the grandson as her had the grandfather', of course.
 
- Do we know what office Daemon took according to this sentence: 'Prince Daemon did remain at King’s Landing for half a year, and even resumed his seat on the small council, but neither age nor exile had changed his nature.' Wouldn't it make more sense if he resumed his office as Lord Commander of the City Watch?
 
- There is an inconsistency in the account on Rhaenyra's wedding. The paragraph begins thus: 'Not long thereafter, Rhaenyra set sail for Driftmark, accompanied by her handmaids (two of them the daughters of the Hand and sisters to Ser Harwin), the fool Mushroom, and her new champion, Breakbones himself. In 114 AC, Rhaenyra Targayen, Princess of Dragonstone, took to husband Ser Laenor Velaryon (knighted a fortnight before the wedding, since it was deemed necessary the prince consort be a knight). The bride was seventeen, the groom twenty, and all agreed that they made a handsome couple. The wedding was celebrated with seven days of feasts and jousting.'
 
This indicates the wedding and subsequent celebrations took place on Driftmark, the seat of Rhaenyra's husband. But when all is over it is indicated that it took place at KL as evidenced by those sentences:
 
'Ser Laenor returned to Driftmark thereafter, leaving many to wonder if his marriage had ever been consummated. The princess remained at court, surrounded by her friends and admirers.'
 
I don't have the full text of 'The Heirs of the Dragon', of course, but I doubt that this is an inconsistency that comes from TRP being abridged. George would have to decide whether the wedding took place on Driftmark or in KL. I'd think Driftmark might make more sense, amending things so that Laenor stays on the island while Rhaenyra returns to court. But it could also be rewritten so that Laenor comes to court for the wedding. Would the Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne marry at the seat of her future father-in-law or in the castle and city where she would one day rule? My gut feeling would indicate the latter, even more since Viserys I most likely would preside over this joyous occasion himself rather than give the Sea Snake the privilege to do so.
 
- This sentence 'The prince named the girls Baela (after his father) and Rhaena (after her mother).' should better read 'after 'Laena's mother' or 'after his wife's mother'.
 
- The Gerardys conundrum, of course. What is the new way of things? Is Orwyle just the replacement as the Grand Maester down the road or does he also 'take over' Gerardys' role as maester of Dragonstone who eventually becomes Grand Maester after Mellos' death?
 
I really like the Dragonstone back story for the Grand Maester - be he Orwyle or Gerardys.
 
And you can you give me some hint what the story of the true Gerarys is going to turn out to be?
 
- There is talk in TPatQ that Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone (speculation whether the dragon was drawn to the place of his birth, etc.). But if he hatched from an egg put in Aegon's cradle the dragon would most likely have hatched in KL since that's where he and his royal parents lived. If George does indeed want to make Dragonstone the place where Sunfyre hatched he could clarify this by making Sunfyre a hatchling given to young Aegon after his birth rather than have him hatch from an egg given to boy.
 
- An inconsistency about the funeral on Driftmark: This sentence 'The next occurred at High Tide after Ser Laenor’s funeral (...)' indicates it was only Laenor's funeral the court attended. But this sentence 'Only the middle son, Prince Aemond, remained dragonless, but His Grace had hopes of rectifying that, and had put forward the notion that perhaps the court might sojourn at Dragonstone after the funerals.' implies there was more than one funeral, most likely meaning Laena and Laenor were cremated on Driftmark at the same time.
 
If the latter is the case the text should reflect that. And it actually makes a lot of sense that the court and royal family would attend both funerals in any case - Laena and Laenor Velaryon were both very important people, after all. There is no reason not to believe that Laenor was murdered very shortly after Laena's death, perhaps before her own funeral.
 
- In TRP we learn that Daeron the Daring was sent as a squire and cupbearer to Oldtown in 126 AC. In TPatQ we learn that he wept when he was informed about his father's death in 129 AC, but the context doesn't make it clear whether he was at court or not. Since he later is part of Lord Ormund Hightower's army one wonders whether he was there the entire time? I think that would make the most sense. I doubt that Alicent would have sent him away had he been at court in 129 AC.
 
- Viserys I's corpse seems to have been discovered at night (at the hour of the bat), and subsequently the Kingsguard has to rouse the members of the Small Council from sleep, etc. I'm not sure that fits all that well with the touching last visit Helaena and her children pay the king. Surely the children would go to sleep early, and if they had visited the king before they went to bed (as they later visit Alicent each day) then it is somewhat odd that the dead king was only discovered later in the night when the grown-ups were all abed, too. I mean, he is the king, and a king is rarely alone, especially if he is as ill and weak as Viserys was at that time. Is that a discrepancy between the official tale and the rumors you refer to in TWoIaF that Alicent may have poisoned Viserys I? Was he visited by other people after Helaena and the children left? Or is this just an unintentional discrepancy?
 
Stuff we would like to learn (and you guys, too, most likely):
 
- The name of Otto Hightower's brother and wife, and the names of all their children.
 
- How it came to be that Vermithor/Silverwing were not claimed by any of the later Targaryens up until the Dance and why they were kept on Dragonstone rather than in the Dragonpit (a possible explanation for that could be that the Old King decreed their mounts should be allowed to live out their 'retirement' in peace after he and Alysanne were gone)? It seems odd that Rhaenyra and Daemon's children would all favor young dragons while Helaena and Aemond were both claiming huge and old beasts...
 
- I wonder whether it truly makes sense that Viserys I never claimed another dragon after Balerion's death. For one, he is the most powerful Targaryen king ruling over a virtual army of dragonriders yet he himself is none of them? That is odd, especially in light of the fact that a dragon grants a lot of power to its rider. Daemon had Caraxes, and the Targaryen-Velaryons had Meleys, Vhagar (!), and Seasmoke. Against all that Viserys I himself basically had just a crown to keep them in line. How was that enough?
In addition, there is this talk of there being many dragons on Driftmark for the funeral of Laenor ('The next occurred at High Tide after Ser Laenor’s funeral, when king and court made the journey to Driftmark for the funeral pyre, many on the back of their dragons. (So many dragons were present that Septon Eustace wrote that Driftmark had become the new Valyria.)') - are we truly to believe that the dragonless king and queen went by ship (or as passengers atop Dreamfyre at Helaena's side) while the dragonriding princes and princes showed up with their beasts?
It might be more interesting to change things so that Viserys I did claim another ancient dragon in the 90s, a beast perhaps previously ridden by Prince Viserys, son of Aenys I, or Alyssa Velaryon, etc., only to see that dragon die a slow and mysterious death in the late 120s while the king himself grew weaker and weaker. That could be another ill omen shortly before the outbreak of the Dance, another sign how rotten things had become (in more than one manner, of course, it could also be the first dragon that was poisoned - if any dragons were poisoned ;-)).
 
A similar logistical problem might arise in 41 AC when Aenys I and the royal family move from KL to Dragonstone in the wake of the attempt on their lives. Go they by ship? If so, how do they take their dragons with them. Aenys I had Quicksilver and Jaehaerys/Alysanne perhaps already their dragons, too. Whether Alyssa and Viserys had any dragons I do not know, but it strikes as very likely if the younger children got some.
 
- Did Princess Rhaenys and Laena and their huge dragons really take no part in the war on the Stepstones? That would be both very odd as well as pretty stupid on the part of Corlys/Daemon. And we do know that at least Meleys and Rhaenys are supposed to have experience in war.
I guess having Laena/Vhagar on the Stepstones would demand changes on the Daemon-Laena marriage but Rhaenys/Meleys could have been there without any difficulty. And a younger Laena may not yet have caught Daemon's eye who would have been focused on different things at that point, anyway.

There clearly are some issues, some real problems, others more subtle problems, other potential plot holes. And then there is the stuff one simply would like to know ;-).

On 20.10.2017 at 3:10 PM, Tygett Greenshield said:

They didn't have the dragon genes. While younger siblings did.

While being rather unlikely - due to the fact that no Targaryen was rejected by a dragon back in the days they still had dragons as far as we know - the point is that I - and presumably all the other readers - would like to know that this was the case.

The problem isn't that Aegon and Viserys may not have been dragonriders, the problem is that there is no explanation given as to why this should be the case. And that is a plot hole.

[The Prince of Magpies]

On 2017-10-20 at 2:10 PM, Tygett Greenshield said:

They didn't have the dragon genes. While younger siblings did.

Aegon later claimed Quicksilver (prior to the Battle Beneath the God's Eye), so even if we accept the 'Dragon genes' theory, it isn't really applicable here.

Also, you would suppose that if Aegon, Viserys or any other Targaryen prior to the Dance tried to claim a Dragon and was rejected owing to their genes, it would be remarked upon somewhere in the histories. Maegor could have made a huge deal of dragons rejecting Aenys' boys to back up the claim that he should succeed his brother.

[The Grey Wolf]

Another weird detail that doesn't really make much sense:

29. When Tyanna is torturing confessions out of Alys's supposed lovers it is mentioned that "one, a father of twelve, still had the gold paid him by Lord Harroway for his services".

So, was Alys really cheating? Was that false evidence planted by Tyanna? Was it gold paid for services completely unrelated to Alys? Was it a detail added into the account long after the events described?

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[The Grey Wolf]

30. What was the "troublesome connection" between House Tully and House Qoherys mentioned in TWOIAF?

@Ran

Is the answer to this given in the unknown section of Fire & Blood concerning Aegon I?

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Grey Wolf

[Lord Varys]

On 22.10.2017 at 4:37 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Another weird detail that doesn't really make much sense:

29. When Tyanna is torturing confessions out of Alys's supposed lovers it is mentioned that "one, a father of twelve, still had the gold paid him by Lord Harroway for his services".

So, was Alys really cheating? Was that false evidence planted by Tyanna? Was it gold paid for services completely unrelated to Alys? Was it a detail added into the account long after the events described?

I don't think that is a real inconsistency. We are not supposed to know what actually happened there. But if you want my opinion then it actually seems as if Alys' child was indeed not fathered by Maegor. Or rather - that Alys was actually not only sleeping with Maegor during the time she finally conceived a child. The idea that Alys' father had other men impregnate her in a desperate attempt to give Maegor what he wanted and keep his favor does not exactly sound implausible. Tyanna could have still poisoned that child - or not, that is difficult to say.

The way George spins the tale indicates that Tyanna merely provided Maegor with information and he was the one who went through the torture and the confessions. He didn't take Tyanna's word for it. The idea that she could have prepared all those people implicating Alys and her father doesn't sound all that plausible to me. Maegor would have noticed it if the people he was going to torture had already been tortured by somebody else.

But then, perhaps Tyanna simply draw up false accusations and Maegor himself ensured that the accused men confessed. It is difficult to say. But details like the gold there point in the other direction.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that is a real inconsistency. We are not supposed to know what actually happened there. But if you want my opinion then it actually seems as if Alys' child was indeed not fathered by Maegor. Or rather - that Alys was actually not only sleeping with Maegor during the time she finally conceived a child. The idea that Alys' father had other men impregnate her in a desperate attempt to give Maegor what he wanted and keep his favor does not exactly sound implausible. Tyanna could have still poisoned that child - or not, that is difficult to say.

The way George spins the tale indicates that Tyanna merely provided Maegor with information and he was the one who went through the torture and the confessions. He didn't take Tyanna's word for it. The idea that she could have prepared all those people implicating Alys and her father doesn't sound all that plausible to me. Maegor would have noticed it if the people he was going to torture had already been tortured by somebody else.

But then, perhaps Tyanna simply draw up false accusations and Maegor himself ensured that the accused men confessed. It is difficult to say. But details like the gold there point in the other direction.

That was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant to say is that the detail is IMHO not very well explained. Did Lord Lucas actually pay these twenty men to bed his daughter? Did Tyanna plant the money on them or torture them until they confessed that they had spent the supposed coin? Was this another detail added after the fact?

Also, while we're on the subject of Alys's stillbirth: I disagree. No other house in Westerosi history produces stillborn monstrosities the way Maegor, Rhaenyra, and Dany do so the idea that some random commoner or lord could beget such a horror doesn't make much sense to me.

31. If Rhaena wanted to escape Maegor's clutches why wasn't the option of her fleeing to Dorne or Essos on dragonback ever brought up?

32. If Rhaena tried to kill Maegor with a dagger hidden beneath her pillow why didn't she later just put an end to him with Blackfyre while he slept? Fear of retaliation by the Kingsguard?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

That was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant to say is that the detail is IMHO not very well explained. Did Lord Lucas actually pay these twenty men to bed his daughter? Did Tyanna plant the money on them or torture them until they confessed that they had spent the supposed coin? Was this another detail added after the fact?

I guess those are indeed details that are supposed to be lost to history. Tyanna certainly could also have planted gold on the men she was accusing. That shouldn't be that difficult. She could even have given false orders to Harroway's stewards to arrange such payments.

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, while we're on the subject of Alys's stillbirth: I disagree. No other house in Westerosi history produces stillborn monstrosities the way Maegor, Rhaenyra, and Dany do so the idea that some random commoner or lord could beget such a horror doesn't make much sense to me.

True, but if the child was indeed poisoned by Tyanna? But, again - it is possible that Alys had slept with other men while, due to some lucky accident - Maegor's seed quickened in her womb. It would be a lucky coincidence but it is possible.

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

32. If Rhaena tried to kill Maegor with a dagger hidden beneath her pillow why didn't she later just put an end to him with Blackfyre while he slept? Fear of retaliation by the Kingsguard?

That is likely the point as to why it is not clear that this episode actually happened. Could be that she wanted to try something like that. But if she did the idea most likely died when she realized that Tyanna had Aerea and Rhaella. Could also be that she had some knife with her to have a weapon in case of an emergency. Or it is just a fancy tale.

In addition we don't know whether Blackfyre was with Maegor when Rhaena stole it. He could have kept it in some antechamber to his bedchamber, in his solar, or anything. All we know is that she took it from Maegor's scabbard. Nowhere is it said the sword was next to Maegor's bed while he slept in that bed.

If Rhaena took the sword from Maegor himself one also wonders why she didn't kill him then and there, using it. But then - he was her uncle and husband, and she may have not been keen to become a kinslayer herself.

[The Grey Wolf]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Re the gold: Some speculation by Maesters in that vein would be much appreciated.

[Helled]

There seem to be some inconsistencies In The Sons of the Dragon regarding ages.

 

We know the exact years of birth of Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys and Alysanne from the text:

Quote

Thus it came to pass that in 25 AC, Maegor Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, wed Lady Ceryse Hightower (...).

(...)

The son came the next year...but the boy, named Aegon after his grandsire, was born to Lady Alyssa and fathered by Prince Aenys. Lady Ceryse did not quicken in the years that followed, though other children came one after the other to Alyssa. In 29 AC, she gave Aenys a second son, Viserys. In 34 AC, she gave birth to Jaehaerys, her fourth child and third son. In 36 AC came another daughter, Alysanne.

 

But later on we have:

Quote

His fu­ner­al was at­tend­ed by his sons Vis­erys and Jae­haerys, twelve and sev­en years of age re­spec­tive­ly, and his daugh­ter Alysanne, five.

In 42 AC, Viserys, Jaehaerys and Alysanne would be 13, 8 and 6 respectively. Though I suppose this particulary inconsistency can be explained by Aenys dying very early in 42 AC, and all three children's birthdays falling later in the year?

 

Later on, there's this:

Quote

And in the west­er­lands, Ae­gon Tar­garyen, Prince of Drag­on­stone, re­mained adamant as well. As the el­dest son of King Aenys, the Iron Throne was his by right. Prince Ae­gon was but sev­en­teen, how­ev­er, and the son of a weak fa­ther be­sides; few lords cared to risk King Mae­gor’s wroth by sup­port­ing his claim.

It's still 42 AC by this point, "the dawn of the year 43 AC" being mentioned a few paragraphs later. Seeing as Aegon was born in 26 AC, he should still be 16 in 42 AC.

 

And afterwards, regarding Viserys' death:

Quote

The prince was six­teen years old when he was killed, and had been much loved by small­folk and lords alike.

He should have been 15 at his death in 44 AC, since he was born in 29 AC.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Helled said:

In 42 AC, Viserys, Jaehaerys and Alysanne would be 13, 8 and 6 respectively. Though I suppose this particulary inconsistency can be explained by Aenys dying very early in 42 AC, and all three children's birthdays falling later in the year?

We do know that Aenys died indeed very early in 42 AC. He removes himself to Dragonstone late in 41 AC, and is already sick when the new year begins.

It also seems Maegor was overthrown rather early in 48 AC, too. After all, he ruled six years, and sixty-six days, beginning shortly after Aenys' funeral.

4 hours ago, Helled said:

Later on, there's this:

It's still 42 AC by this point, "the dawn of the year 43 AC" being mentioned a few paragraphs later. Seeing as Aegon was born in 26 AC, he should still be 16 in 42 AC.

That is correct.

4 hours ago, Helled said:

And afterwards, regarding Viserys' death:

He should have been 15 at his death in 44 AC, since he was born in 29 AC.

Yeah. Ran/Linda caught that mistake for TWoIaF, and one should assume that this is also the way it is going to be printed in Fire and Blood.