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The Grey Wolf

Inconsistencies, plot holes, and missing details in TSOTD, TRP, and TPATQ

172 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Or a well-founded rumour.

After all, we see quite some married household retainers. Winterfell has Vayon Poole with a daughter and Rodrik Cassel also with daughter... though their mothers are not currently around. Podrick Payne´s father was married while squiring for his richer cousins. Etc.

If a lord commits adultery with a wife of his household retainer, it is certainly an abuse, but how much practical recourse does the retainer have? Leave the lord´s service and take his wife along... but he is not assured of getting an equal rank job elsewhere.

So you could have evidence pointing at Orys not being the child of his alleged father... like, different looks (but where is the black hair from? Mother?), or evidence of his alleged father having been away on the lord´s business at the relevant time.

While this is a nice idea, we have no evidence that Orys Baratheon's mother or his (alleged) father even were retainers of the Targaryens on Dragonstone.

All we do know is that Orys Baratheon himself became Aegon Targaryen's best friend. There is no link between Orys and Lord Aerion that we know of. His (alleged) parents could have been Valyrian (nobles) in the service of the Targaryens. But they could just as well been mere commoners or the descendants of slaves. We don't know.

What we do know is that Orys Baratheon didn't look Valyrian, making it exceedingly unlikely that there was much tangible evidence that he was Aerion's son. He didn't look like his alleged father, nor like his alleged half-siblings. And he wasn't acknowledged by Lord Aerion, either.

In light of those facts, the chances are not very good that anybody would believe Aerion was Orys' father just because his official father (if he had one) was away when the child was conceived. Why couldn't be some other man Orys' father?

It is also rather telling that Argilac the Arrogant outright dismissed the possibility of Orys Baratheon marrying his daughter and heir. He wanted a closer relation with the Targaryens on Dragonstone and if Orys had been a scion of Valyrian nobility as well as (very likely) the half-brother of Lord Aegon there wouldn't have been a good reason to react as harshly as he did. But if Orys Baratheon was nothing but a baseborn nobody whose sole special feature was that he had been befriended by Aegon Targaryen for some reason then it was clearly an insult to offer such a man as potential husband to the daughter of a king.

And it is rather telling that Orys was later never officially declared Aegon's half-brother by King Aegon himself - nor legitimized as a Targaryen. Aegon could have done both, and if you think about it then Orys' standing with Argella Durrandon and his bannermen and vassals in the Stormlands would have been much better if an Orys Targaryen had ruled over them than an Orys Baratheon (or at least an Orys Baratheon who was publicly declared to be the half-brother of King Aegon).

In light of all that the chances are not bad that Orys Baratheon is not, in fact, Aerion Targaryen's son and the whole thing is just that - a rumor.

We know the First Night was practiced on Dragonstone. Perhaps Orys Baratheon was nothing but an alleged dragonseed, the son of one of many women Lord Aerion had before their legal husband? We don't know.

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@Lord Varys

I disagree. Orys is the founder of a Great House and the BFF of Aegon the Conqueror. It makes no sense that the Maesters wouldn't write down where the hell his family name comes from.

57. One of the casualties of the Fishfeed in TPATQ is a Lord Swyft. Is this an error or was House Swyft demoted sometime after the Dance?

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9 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

I disagree. Orys is the founder of a Great House and the BFF of Aegon the Conqueror. It makes no sense that the Maesters wouldn't write down where the hell his family name comes from.

They certainly would do that - but George isn't forced to put such information in either Fire and Blood or TWoIaF.

But I must say I was surprised that TWoIaF didn't resolve the mystery of Orys Baratheon. Considering that Yandel wrote his book for King Robert - and did cover the history of the Stormlands in that book, too - it is rather strange that the royal ancestry of House Baratheon and the kinship of its legendary with Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives wasn't elaborated on.

Yandel could easily enough have drawn a historical parallel between Orys and Robert, claiming that Robert proved his right to rule and royal ancestry by his prowess in battle, very much like Orys Baratheon did win his position as Lord of Storm's End and Hand of the King when he defeated King Argilac and the Stormlords.

It is not that Orys Baratheon's ancestry would have given Robert all that strong a claim - it is rather that this would have been a nice and interesting parallel.

9 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

57. One of the casualties of the Fishfeed in TPATQ is a Lord Swyft. Is this an error or was House Swyft demoted sometime after the Dance?

@Ran should check that, but I'm not sure it would be a relevant mistake even if it was one, and George actually meant a landed knight there. There could have been a lordly branch of House Swyft which died out over the years, or they could indeed have been demoted. There were some Blackfyre rebellions between the Dance and the series.

In fact, there could still be a lordly branch of House Swyft in the Westerlands right now. We may just not know about that.

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Posted (edited)

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Nope. The German translation is already under way.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope. The German translation is already under way.

I saw that too.

Hopefully all the work we've done here is of use to GRRM and co.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I saw that too.

Hopefully all the work we've done here is of use to GRRM and co.

I meant, I actually know that the German translation is under way. From reliable sources.

I hope that, too.I guess there is still ample time to combine the stuff we have collected here one big file and hand it over to @Ran and @Linda.

Such a file should, I think, restrict itself to actual errors, mistakes, inaccuracies, and plot holes. It shouldn't be wish list of what we want to read but rather a way to better the product we intend to buy and read. Which should be much better than what we read in 'The Book of Swords' - but also better than the garbled texts of TPatQ and TRP (although the latter works best as a text).

We can always express our desire about what we would like to read once we have finally read the final text of 'Fire and Blood'. There is supposed to be a second volume, and Ran has already indicated there might be a expanded/enlarged volume of TWoIaF in the future, too, giving George's complete texts on the various kingdoms and the lands in the east and south (and perhaps even something).

I mean, this world really has potential. The Seven Kingdoms alone could provide the background for something like 'The Dune Encyclopedia' - which really is the best 'companion book thing' on a fictional universe out there, because it really played with everything an in-world book can offer on a very sophisticated level (just think of the entry reinventing Paul Atreides as a Fremen impostor or the complete list of Padishah emperors of all the various houses, stretching over 10,000 years).

There thousands of years to cover, and technically there should be nearly infinite things to explore if you focus on things rather than giving only a broad overview.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

I agree with everything you said.

In fact, this is why I love world-building so much and hope to one day publish an equivalent to TWOIAF for my own setting.

Anyway, do you want to compile a list of notes based off this thread or should I?

Also, it will forever be my opinion that Fire & Blood should be split into three parts:

Volume 1 (Aegon I-Regency of Aegon III)

Volume 2 (Post-Regency Aegon III-Daeron II)

Volume 3 (Aerys I-Aerys II)

This would allow GRRM to publish more material without having to worry about spoiling D & E. Moreover, it would tie in with the fact that "the dragon must have three heads".

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, do you want to compile a list of notes based off this thread or should I?

If you want to do it, I won't stop you. I don't have the time to do that right now ;-).

But I think I posted one of my own detailed notes on the issues with TRP and TPatQ in one of the longer posts in that thread.

Great emphasis should be on the issues with TSotD since we are reasonably certain that this is pretty much the whole text. Stuff isn't unclear or confusing in there because things are missing, it is so because it was written that way.

But clear mistakes in TRP and TPatQ should be marked, too (like when family relations are wrong, etc.). Ran and Linda are likely going to catch those, too, but the more people point stuff out the more likely is it that this stuff is actually corrected.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, it will forever be my opinion that Fire & Blood should be split into three parts:

Volume 1 (Aegon I-Regency of Aegon III)

Volume 2 (Post-Regency Aegon III-Daeron II)

Volume 3 (Aerys I-Aerys II)

This would allow GRRM to publish more material without having to worry about spoiling D & E. Moreover, it would tie in with the fact that "the dragon must have three heads".

I really think the first volume should not end after the Regency of Aegon III but encompass his entire reign. A generic two volume history of the reign of House Targaryen should cover the Targaryen until the death of the last dragon, not just until some boy king came of age.

If there was enough material for a three volume history your suggestion makes sense. And I guess George could write another 800 or so pages if the exploits of Aegon the Unworthy would be a huge chunk of that. It wouldn't be that novel from his POV - but then, Gyldayn could have chanced upon parts of King Aegon's private diary during his research, and give the reader long excerpts from the Unworthy's own POV...

The reign of Aegon III could become a pretty long piece, too, not just because of the ultimate fates of Silverwing and Sheepstealer, but also due to the wars and conflicts around the three fake Daerons, Oakenfist's later voyages, the fate of the last dragons, etc. 

And an included thorough history of the Daeron's Conquest (with lengthy quotations from Daeron's book as well many various Dornish and neutral sources) as well as a detailed coverage of the First Blackfyre Rebellion and its gestation certainly also has the potential to become a pretty big book. Not to mention the colorful reign of Baelor the Blessed.

Due to the long lives of certain characters the author could also make it a point to focus continuously on people like Viserys II, Aegon the Unworthy, the Dragonknight, Princess Elaena, and Daeron II. They would not only do the things that they are famous for, but would also participate in and witness things we don't connect them with them all that much.

The Unworthy's secret diary could not only give us insight into his sexual exploits and the relationship with his siblings and father, but be also provide interesting commentary on the reign of his uncle and two cousins. Vice versa, Daeron II and Elaena are around for the reigns of Daeron I and Baelor, too.

How the whole plan of a union with Dorne finally took shape is another interesting thing. After all, young Daeron II did live through his namesake's war, too. And while he presumably grew to love Mariah eventually, we have no clue whether he wanted to see Daeron I avenged or what he thought of King Baelor's plan to marry him to the daughter of the people who (presumably) were behind the Young Dragon's death.

The Great Spring Sickness wouldn't be a natural point to end such a book, but then - if we don't have the Dunk & Egg stories written at that point it would be the ideal point to end it. One could even include some personal tragedy there if Gyldayn himself lost important people during that plague.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the man was himself one of the not-so-great bastards of Aegon IV - or the son of such a bastard. Aegon must have had many children, and the Citadel would certainly be a place for some of them. It would depend on how old the man was when he died.

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@Lord Varys

I won't have time till May because of exams but alright.

Anyway, do you think Grand Maester Aethelmure could be a Targaryen bastard?

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4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

I won't have time till May because of exams but alright.

Well, we might be able to save us a lot of work:

@Ran, do you guys care to receive a long list of the mad ramblings of us malcontents, complaining about really huge and world-moving inconsistencies, or have you been keeping track of the entire thing, anyway ;-)?

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, do you think Grand Maester Aethelmure could be a Targaryen bastard?

No, not until this moment. But I'm really interesting in the kind of treason Grand Maester Hareth committed, and what he did 

Aethelmure could have had some Valyrian background, as could Gyldayn.

But then, if you look at the names of certain professions, George seems to have a tendency to give maesters and septons 'scholarly' and 'pious' names. Names like Pycelle, Luceon, Walgrave, Colemon, Chayle, Cellador, Unella, etc. are only used in a specific context - which is rather odd, considering that neither septons/septas nor maesters take a new name.

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I’ve gone through the thread. Thanks. Will just underscore that much that was posted here is not part of what I sent to GRRM. Most of it is really asking for explanations of things that have  readily imagined solutions. But the genuine continuity issues, or plot holes that seem to have no good solutions, have been sent on.

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