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Harvey Weinstein: Why is it about so much more than Harvey Weinstein?


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56 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It looks like there are bigger ramifications in the fallout of the Weinstein accusations than a lot of people expected. Sexual predators are getting fired right and left, and even a former seemingly mild mannered president has had to apologize for his past behaviors.

We can only pray...

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The story, by now, reads as familiar. Summer Zervos got her big break appearing on a network television show. This was 2007, and Zervos was a young woman from Orange County, California, eager to take the next step in her career. But then her role on the show ended.

She reached out to the man behind the show, a man who was rich and powerful and connected. She wanted another job. She wanted advice. And he was happy to meet with her. He invited her to his office, in New York.

When she arrived, she says the man immediately kissed her on the mouth. It made her uncomfortable, but she rationalized it. Maybe this is just how he greets people, she thought. He told her she was great, she was smart, she was attractive. He said he would love to work with her more. When the meeting was over, she remembers, he kissed her on the mouth again.

Time passed. The powerful man called Zervos to say he was coming to the West Coast. They made plans to meet at the Beverly Hills Hotel and go out to dinner. When Zervos arrived, she was brought to the man’s bungalow. She says he immediately began kissing her, open-mouthed. She pulled away. He asked her to come sit next to him. She did so. He began kissing her again, and grabbed her breast. She moved across the room. He followed her, embraced her, and rubbed his crotch against her.

The details of Zervos’s legal complaint are familiar to anyone who has followed the Harvey Weinstein scandal. All the elements are there: the power imbalance. The putatively professional meetings that are actually settings for sexual assault. The older man trading on the connections he can offer, the plum jobs he controls, to pressure a younger woman into sex.

But Summer Zervos’s story isn’t about Harvey Weinstein. It’s about Donald J. Trump.

 

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17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yes, it was. I'm saying I don't have to urge to rape women who dress sexy. Are you saying you do? Cause that puts your creepy factor up by a lot.

I think MC's comment was unintentionally creepy due to awkward wording rather than intended nefarious emotion. You're probably implying too much here to be entirely fair. All that can happen now is either one of you ignoring this and diffusing or escalating into name-calling. Perhaps we let this dissipate.

 

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

And you said what I wrote was creepy...

The comment is clearly tongue-in-cheek. Let's just let the moment slide, take a breath and stop this particular line of the conversation.

 

Edited to add: Also, obviously both of you do care about women's rights. That's clear. Please let it go.

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I'm surprised they didn't mention that super famous photo of the WWII sailor forcefully kissing the nurse.  For decades it was used as this sort of romantic type of image, everyone ignoring the woman's body language entirely.  They even made statues of it.  It wasn't until sometime in the last decade that the nurse publicly revealed that she didn't consent to this kiss, that she was simply grabbed and forcefully kissed and then it became famous.  

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A few weeks ago, news came out that Screen Junkies Andy Signore, one of the creators of Honest Trailers who also host Movie Fights and a major presence, sexually assaulted and harassed several Female Fans and at Female employees. One who came forward stated it was due to the Weinstein revealation. In addition these allegations were brought to SJ parent company, Defy Media, H.R department and it appears they worked to initially cover it up.

Below is an article from Hollywood Reporter on the incident:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/honest-trailers-creator-andy-signore-accused-sexual-abuse-1046574

The channel went totally dark and there were occasional updates from some of the major staffers of the channel that they were focus on addressing the issue.

Today the main staff release an update of the issue and discussion of the channels future which I will place below. The video also a link to Defy Media on action and changes they are making:

Spoiler

 

I do not know all actions have been taken to make this "right" and it appears there is some question still with H.R initial actions, including threats of a staffer who is one of accusers B.F. I have been please by several of personalities reaction which took this manner extremely seriously. I do not know the future but I hope the actions taken by several of the SJ staff can be a shown as a positive example though it is still very early to make that an definitive statement.

Small aside:

Spoiler

SJ did a subscription service that lasted less than 2 years (and I paid upfront 2 years) and one of the best content, and my favorite, was Honest Trailers Commentaries which features Andy Signore heavily. It is really a shame that it is not something I cannot enjoy as a result of his actions.

This was not a big story but it hit very close for I do really enjoy the channel.

 

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On 10/24/2017 at 7:49 PM, Theda Baratheon said:

I think the short skirt argument is, ahem, flaming festering donkey shit. 

Because by "explaining" that the woman is being raped for wearing a short skirt you are operating under the assumption that women's bodies are inherently sexual or that rape is about sex and lust and sexual attraction only. When it's not. Women get raped in jeans and t shirts, they get raped in baggy shirts, they get raped covered head to toe. Rapists aren't just men who are feeling a bit lusty and taking it too far - they're chasing an inherent physical and violent power over another person. It's about taking something away from that person and forcing yourself and your body and your power onto another person without their consent. Stop treating rape like it's just men who really like sex! !! Because men gave high libido! !! ( in other cultures, in other times women have been seen as having higher libido) but for some reason the perpetrators of rape are almost all men. It isn't about sex it's about power. 

Catching up on this.  Theda, there was an art installation at University of Kansas called What Were You Wearing?  And it made the point you just made very visually and powerfully.

And separately, last night I was at an event at a very posh all men's club (the irony was that it was fundraising for my daughters' all girls school - the irony was remarked upon, but the parent who was a member got us the space for free, so you know.....)  Anyhow, there I was, innocently discussing theories on music education with one of the parents who is a jazz musician and getting pointers when another dad butted in to discuss pretty much how terrible it is that all these men's careers are being destroyed (he has a buddy who was fired from the Uber board) when they "didn't know" what was going on "way down the reporting structure."  And that women lie, and that a lot of this is just for attention and money. And that he would rather hire any of these guys because they have proven track records of making money. And I was standing there thinking that there is not enough f*cking alcohol in the world to get me through the next five minutes without getting our daughters expelled, but fortunately I only had to suffer 2 of his asshattery.  And my daughters don't like his daughter.  Anyhow, yeah.  Men's club.  Yup.  Still operates.  One could get cynical.

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22 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Catching up on this.  Theda, there was an art installation at University of Kansas called What Were You Wearing?  And it made the point you just made very visually and powerfully.

And separately, last night I was at an event at a very posh all men's club (the irony was that it was fundraising for my daughters' all girls school - the irony was remarked upon, but the parent who was a member got us the space for free, so you know.....)  Anyhow, there I was, innocently discussing theories on music education with one of the parents who is a jazz musician and getting pointers when another dad butted in to discuss pretty much how terrible it is that all these men's careers are being destroyed (he has a buddy who was fired from the Uber board) when they "didn't know" what was going on "way down the reporting structure."  And that women lie, and that a lot of this is just for attention and money. And that he would rather hire any of these guys because they have proven track records of making money. And I was standing there thinking that there is not enough f*cking alcohol in the world to get me through the next five minutes without getting our daughters expelled, but fortunately I only had to suffer 2 of his asshattery.  And my daughters don't like his daughter.  Anyhow, yeah.  Men's club.  Yup.  Still operates.  One could get cynical.

Thanks for this - will check it out.

And ugh. He'd rather hire these men opposed to who? Women? *rolls eyes* how about...hire the most able and competent whatever gender. ..

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Won't someone think of the mens?

:crying:

Anyways, The Only. Way. A. Person. Can. Avoid. Being. Harrassed. Or. Assaulted. Is. If. Potential. Harrassers. Or. Assaulters. Don't.

Period. 

It starts with parents raising their kids to believe that girls and boys are people above all else and not as someone's sister or daughter or son or brother etc and to respect their personhood. That there looms no entitlement under that skirt or blouse or trousers, coveralls, parka, lab coat, uniform, bedsheet etc. Something something power inequality something something consent something something agency. 

When do you start talking about the perpetrators exclusively instead of the in-depth analysis about how more likely a person is to be harrassed or assaulted.(the fuck? ) Focus on who is more likely to be a scumbag harrasser and work on them to change their behaviour instead of encouraging people to shuffle around in sack cloths for their own safety.

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I’ve been watching the Weinstein news with a lot of interest. That it was allowed to go on for so long is mind blowing and really sums up much of the problems when people who hold power and money are unaccountable for their actions. It’s good that finally someone has put a stop to it.

i have seen a common thread of discussion on it however , saying it’s purely about power and has nothing to do with sex. I don’t think that’s quite true. 

It seems that sexual attraction is at least part of the motivation behind his actions, mixed in with his obviously huge ego and probable insecurities. I’m not sure why there is such a push to exclude sexual motivations from the equation?

its his abuse of power that is the real issue here, he uses his power of other people to get what he wants and doesn’t give a damn about their feelings or if they get hurt. He’s clearly some sort of sociopath or narcissist, a character trait common to a lot of people in powerful positions. Probably why we are seeing so many of these things coming out of the woodwork , as that personality type is often attracted to these types of positions.

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1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

I’ve been watching the Weinstein news with a lot of interest. That it was allowed to go on for so long is mind blowing and really sums up much of the problems when people who hold power and money are unaccountable for their actions. It’s good that finally someone has put a stop to it.

i have seen a common thread of discussion on it however , saying it’s purely about power and has nothing to do with sex. I don’t think that’s quite true. 

It seems that sexual attraction is at least part of the motivation behind his actions, mixed in with his obviously huge ego and probable insecurities. I’m not sure why there is such a push to exclude sexual motivations from the equation?

its his abuse of power that is the real issue here, he uses his power of other people to get what he wants and doesn’t give a damn about their feelings or if they get hurt. He’s clearly some sort of sociopath or narcissist, a character trait common to a lot of people in powerful positions. Probably why we are seeing so many of these things coming out of the woodwork , as that personality type is often attracted to these types of positions.

If it was about sexual attraction, then why is there a need to do it to people who do not want it?  The perp might be sexually attracted to some of his victims, but he isn't harassing, assaulting or raping his victims simply due to experiencing sexual attraction.  

 

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1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

I’ve been watching the Weinstein news with a lot of interest. That it was allowed to go on for so long is mind blowing and really sums up much of the problems when people who hold power and money are unaccountable for their actions. It’s good that finally someone has put a stop to it.

i have seen a common thread of discussion on it however , saying it’s purely about power and has nothing to do with sex. I don’t think that’s quite true. 

It seems that sexual attraction is at least part of the motivation behind his actions, mixed in with his obviously huge ego and probable insecurities. I’m not sure why there is such a push to exclude sexual motivations from the equation?

its his abuse of power that is the real issue here, he uses his power of other people to get what he wants and doesn’t give a damn about their feelings or if they get hurt. He’s clearly some sort of sociopath or narcissist, a character trait common to a lot of people in powerful positions. Probably why we are seeing so many of these things coming out of the woodwork , as that personality type is often attracted to these types of positions.

The bulk of world experiences sexual attraction but doesn't harass, assault or rape those they are attracted to.  So when someone starts bringing up short skirts or attractiveness it's got nothing to do with sexual violence.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

If it was about sexual attraction, then why is there a need to do it to people who do not want it?  The perp might be sexually attracted to some of his victims, but he isn't harassing, assaulting or raping his victims simply due to experiencing sexual attraction.  

 

Well Weinstein is someone who gets people to do things they might not want to do for a living. I’m sure his worldview is very different to ours and he is obsessed with getting the things he wants. 

But he’s clearly going for women he is sexually attracted to. The sexual element is there, along with motivations I mentioned earlier like his ego and insecurity.

im just not sure why it feels so dangerous to suggest his sexual motivations might play even a small part of it. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

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Because the common thread is the abuser/assaulter does not view women (or men as appropriate) as persons with agency but as conquests or things to be used for personal gain and some warped idea about the victim's personal gain. Quid pro quo, Clarice.

Basically they might be attracted to someone but it's akin to lusting over a toy or other object. And abusers/assaulters in general don't recognize or care about the personhood of their intended prey.

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1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

Well Weinstein is someone who gets people to do things they might not want to do for a living. I’m sure his worldview is very different to ours and he is obsessed with getting the things he wants. 

But he’s clearly going for women he is sexually attracted to. The sexual element is there, along with motivations I mentioned earlier like his ego and insecurity.

im just not sure why it feels so dangerous to suggest his sexual motivations might play even a small part of it. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

How do you know "he's clearly going for women he is sexually attracted to"?  Did he say this?  

Look, a sexual attacker might have sexual attraction towards his victims, but sexual attraction isn't what motivates the attacks.  If it were, then every person who experiences sexual attraction would be itching to do some raping.  But that's not the case.  We tend to think of sexual attraction as something as just something that exists within us, something that can't be helped or changed. When you try to couple sexual attraction with things like assault or harrassment, you're implying that rape can't be helped.  

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I think in Weinstein's case the power dynamic is practically squared. You're talking about women that are not only going to be considered almost universally attractive, but also coveted by many due to their public profile and status. It's like the ultimate in bragging rights for a male chauvinist or womanizer. 

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2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

How do you know "he's clearly going for women he is sexually attracted to"?  Did he say this?  

Look, a sexual attacker might have sexual attraction towards his victims, but sexual attraction isn't what motivates the attacks.  If it were, then every person who experiences sexual attraction would be itching to do some raping.  But that's not the case.  We tend to think of sexual attraction as something as just something that exists within us, something that can't be helped or changed. When you try to couple sexual attraction with things like assault or harrassment, you're implying that rape can't be helped.  

Well the way I see it is that sexual attraction is innate inside of us, and we might want to have sex with a lot of people but there are a number of things which stop that happening.

One of them is societal rules which prevent you from just going off and doing things like that, or like murdering people.

The second is a sense of empathy and the ability to care about the welfare of others.

I'm of the opinion that Weinstein lacked any sense of empathy ( possibly why I think he's some sort of sociopath) and that he had accumulated a sense of power which meant he felt he was above societal rules. 

Thats why I don't have any problem with attributing his motivation at least to some level of sexual attraction ( his targets were almost exclusively highly desired women). That doesn't mean that we are all one step away from being rapists.

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Meanwhile, in Australia...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-30/richmond-player-nathan-broad-named-over-topless-photo/9098712

An Australian football player was suspended for three games (should be more) for sharing a consensual photo that he most definitely did not have permission to share.

This sort of thing is why women are physically assaulted, because clearly the young man didn't recognise that what he did was sexual assault.

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