AlaskanSandman

The Dayne Heir(ess)- Daenerys

142 posts in this topic

So this will be my second attempt to approach this. This will be more simplified than before and more to the point, covering Ashara Dayne as the mother of Daenerys Targaryen. Possible paramour or surrogate mother to Rhaegar Targaryen.

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?"
"No. Did he know her?"
"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring."

"Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?"

"Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"
He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . ."
"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

So Edric tells Arya who Eddard fathered Jon on, Wylla. He also tells her that prior to this, Eddard and Ashar fell in love at Harrenhal. Implying that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla.

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"

"He is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.
 
 

So if it wasn't for Howland and Brandon, Eddard would never have met Ashara Dayne. 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

So something about Rhaegar winning and crowning Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, something Barristan feels he could have prevented had he won, drove her to "look to Stark" and drive her into the arm's of Eddard. This is likely what dishonored Ashara some how, again, something Barristan could have prevented had he won instead.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ."

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

And yet, Wylla was in Winterfell, and Caitlynn thinks Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne based off rumors from the soldiers. Dont forget though, only Howland and Eddard were really there though.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

R+L=J

Eddard finds Lyanna with Jon who makes Eddard promise to hide him and keep his secret safe.

Wylla and Howland find him holding her body, silent with grief.

Lyanna was still clutching the dead rose pedals of the Crown of Queen of Love and Beauty that Rhaegar had given Lyanna.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Ned was forced to lie to Ashara Dayne over the identity of Jon's mother. Eddard arrived in Starfall with Dawn, Jon, Wylla, and a "Promise". 

So we have the full story it would seem almost. Ashara was driven into the arms of Eddard whom she had shared a dance yet was heart broken when Eddard showed up with baby Jon claiming that it was his child with Wylla. As he promise Lyanna he wouldn't reveal Jon's identity to any one, to which he never does. To his death.

Almost. It would seem a couple random pieces are missing.

  1. Why was Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna a dishonor on Ashara Dayne? One which caused her to "Look to Stark". 
  2. After serving in Winterfell for sometime, House Dayne takes Wylla into their services.
  3. House Dayne seems to have named Edric after Eddard as both are called Ned for short. Eddard also seems to be held in high regard to Edric at the least. Why if he broke Ashara Dayne's heart and killed Arthur?
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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much

Why are we given this seemingly random fact? Followed directly by the claim that Ashara had killed her self over the loss of the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal. 

Not over a broken heart due to Eddard knocking Wylla up with Jon. No. He puts forth the loss of the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal. 

The very man that caused her to "Look to Stark", a thing Barristan feels he could have prevented had he beat Rhaegar and crowned Ashara over Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty.

Could Ashara "looking to Stark" have been Ashara looking at the woman who just got the crown from the man whom she had hoped to get it from? Lyanna Stark. It ultimately came down to these two women getting crowned after all.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

At the time of Harrenhal, Ashara was "not long at court"

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Could the person Rhaegar had looked up to and spoken those words to actually have been Ashara Dayne. Mother to Daenerys?

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A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

"My lord does have one prize to offer," Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. "Prince Aegon's hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners."

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

"Daenerys Targaryen may yet come home one day," Connington told the Halfmaester. "Aegon must be free to marry her."

So Aegon was Elia's last child. To have any further children, Rhaegar will at least need a surrogate mother to complete the "Three Heads of the Dragon"

Interestingly, Jon thinks of these things, then list Dany right after. Wink Wink.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.

So the birth of Aegon happened before Harrenhal, as Harrenhal was late in the year of 281, in the final month. With the coming of the new year finding Rhaegar no wheres around as he had already taken to the road to seek out Lyanna Stark, whom he met at Harrenhal, after the birth of Aegon and the Maesters news of Elia's birthing conditions.

 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."
Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."
Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

 

 

So Rhaegar had planned a few things regarding Harrenhal that all had gone awry, upon meeting Lyanna Stark, Knight of the Laughing Tree. Due to the interference of Howland Reed. 

Rhaegar had possibly planned to originally crown Ashara Dayne as Queen of Love and Beauty and pursue his plans of calling a council with the High Lords to over throw his father, probably peaceably. As he is still big on protecting and honoring his father up till he rides to his death. Everything changed though when he met Lyanna Stark.

This also places Ashara Dayne and Elia back in King's Landing at the same time as Rhaegar. Following his arrival from the south, and the Tower of Joy. This is also the same time Aerys rapes Rhaella as Jon Darry who scolds Jamie while talking with Rhaegar, guards the door of Rhaella with Jamie, before dying on the Trident with Rhaegar. 

So this all would explain this seemingly random "Dishonor" at Harrenhal that had driven her into the arms of Eddard Stark, if only even for a Night.

As it's claimed she killed her self over a broken heart, but never actually claimed that that broken heart was due to Eddard. Everything else was because of the death of her brother, the loss of her child, and the loss of the man who "dishonored" her at Harrenhal, causing her to "Look to Stark".

Which brings us to the last 2 seemingly strange facts left over. 

House Dayne taking Wylla into their services and Edric being named for Eddard whom he seems excited about meeting. 

If, Daenerys is indeed the child of Rhaegar. Then House Dayne has a big problem on their hands and Eddard knows it, as he left K.L. in a black rage over Robert's killing of Targaryen babies. 

The very reason Eddard is forced to hide baby Jon and lie and say that Jon is his.

Something that may have contributed to Ashara's death even. 

I have idea's on further accounts of Dany and Dragonstone if any one is interested, but dont wanna bog this thread down with too much extra stuff off the main point. 

________________________________________________________________________________________

Brandon Stark could not have been the one Ashara "looked to" following Lyanna being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty, as even House Dayne claim that Eddard and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal. Eddard and Ashara spent a night in a tent. Nothing about Brandon. The Stark she looked to was Eddard. 

Eddard Stark could not have been the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal, as neither were wed as pointed out in the quote above to Arya. Eddard couldn't have gotten Ashara pregnant at this time as a child conceived in Dec of 281 would be born in Sept of 282Ac at the latest. Jon was born in 283Ac, March likely being the earliest. 

If Daenerys was conceived in March before the Sack of K.L. and born 9 moons later, she would possibly be born in Dec of 283Ac with Ashara killing her self shortly after.

This lines up with the known events as the only events to happen in 283 prior was the Battle of the Bells (Jan?) then the Wedding of Cat and Ned (Feb?) followed by the Trident not far from Riverrun (March?) with the Sack of K.L. happening with in the fortnight.

This lines up with what were told about 282 and Rhaegar taking off at the start of the Year to kidnap Lyanna, and Brandon dying a few short days before he was to Wed Caitlynn, in Feb of 282Ac. 

With Jon Arryn calling his banners with in the next month, launching the start of the Robert's Rebellion roughly in March of 282Ac. 

Conclusion.- Ashara Dayne was either the Paramour or planned surrogate of Rhaegar for his 3rd child, to which he seems to have followed through with. Perhaps due to his friendship with Arthur, who was standing guard over Lyanna Stark and baby Jon. 

Perhaps cause House Dayne hold Dawn and may have their own TPTWP prophecy regarding their sword, and said figure needing to be born of their line. Some thing im sure Arthur had made Rhaegar aware of and was likely why Ashara was the original candidate, but the heart makes a man do strange things. Especially when the Old Gods get involved.

I hope you enjoyed and was more palpable to take in :)

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A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"

"… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."

"No," said Quentyn, red-faced, "but …"

 

Oh just in case you think Ashara can't be Rhaegar's paramour? Then why would Gerris think is was ok for Quentyn, of higher birth, to be Dany's? Cause in Dorne, it is acceptable, just not by Westerosi Standards. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Where does all these Danaerys secret parents posts and threads come I honestly have no idea.

 

Danaerys was born on Dragonstone during a storm that wiped away the Targaryen fleet, hence the name.

From all we know, during all this time Ashara was in Starfall, when Danaerys was born she was perhaps already dead or "dead", whichever you choose to believe.

Danaerys has a brother, Viserys,that was with their mother during all this time. Viserys was 8 if i remember right, so old enough to remember it all.

Stannis was building a fleet of his own during this time so he'd be watchful for any ships coming and going to Dragonstone, so not much chance of Ashara "dying" and then going to Dragonstone to give birth to Danaerys. so simply suggesting she drifted all that way from Starfall to Dragonstone would be more sensible.

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I was never big on Daenerys not being who we think she is theories. Dany is the only known 100% for sure real true born Targaryen. If this theory was true she'd be a bastard, I don't see what that would add to the story.

Also what type of person would Arthur Dayne be if all this was true? He stays loyal to Rhaegar while Rhaegar takes his highborn sister as a mistress then takes Lyanna as another one? Was that Oswell Whent's plan as well? Did he organize the tourney at Harrenhal to set up the fair Whent maid to be Rhaegar's next paramour? Where does Rhaegar's mad harem end? 

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Where does all these Danaerys' secret parents posts and threads come I honestly have no idea.

It happens when you have more than half a decade between the releases of a 7 book series that was originally a trilogy. Nerds have epic imaginations that in the complete absence of new stimulus will start building something on it's own, even if it has no relevance to the story and is so far afield from the author's vision that it becomes fan fic and a new story   

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2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It happens when you have more than half a decade between the releases of a 7 book series that was originally a trilogy. Nerds have epic imaginations that in the complete absence of new stimulus will start building something on it's own, even if it has no relevance to the story and is so far afield from the author's vision that it becomes fan fic and a new story   

You are right but imaginations creating unrelated stuff are one thing but creating something contrary to the information already given is completely something else.

Another example of this is Brandon bumped Ashara's lump theories. While Barristan may or may not think it was the wild wolf, he only thinks of the family name, no one else thinks Brandon had any Dornish friendship with Ashara but we get a lot of Ned&Ashara comments from Winterfell folks, then (Catelyn hearing gossip) and now (Harwin telling Arya) Cersei and even Ashara's nephew himself, who shares the nickname with Eddard. If anyone would now the truth about Ashara and Stark, it'd be Neds, one for being in love with Ashara and being the brother of Brandon and the other for being from the same family as Ashara and yet it is there.

 

Edit: II can't help but say, I really appreciated the effort of the OP but my above points still stand..

 

As for Ashara having a baby, I believe Barristan thinking about Ashara's stillborn daughter isn't just put there as a random fact; Ashara possibly had a child,

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"I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I'm not certain . . ."

"It does not always happen the first time." Though it did with you. "Nor even the hundredth. You are very young."
ASOS Catelyn V

Could be a very subtle hint of Ned being able to pregnate a woman in their first time.

If Ashara had a child though, we have a candidate who is much more likely than Danaerys, who was born some 9 months after sack of KL as told by GRRM

 

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He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

How long have you been Lord Beric's squire?" she asked, to take his mind from his misery.

"He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings."

Bolded parts above also include why Ned Dayne may have his nickname.

Below are Alys and Sansa

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She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.
But she was too old, far too old. This girl is almost of an age with me. "
Clydas moved closer. "Poor child. How old are you?"
"Sixteen on my next nameday. And no child, but a woman grown and flowered." She yawned, covered her mouth with the cloak. One bare knee peeked through its folds.

Before the war I was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. We were only waiting till I flowered to be wed, but the Kingslayer killed Daryn in the Whispering Wood

"I'll get you with child as soon as you're able," Joffrey said as he escorted her across the practice yard. "If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?"
Sansa could not look at him, he shamed her so. "Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

We have no birth on Jon but below is Robb's age, Jon and Robb are around the same age, likely with a small difference in months

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 will be sixteen soon enough," Robb said.

"And you are fifteen now. Fifteen, and leading a host to battle. Can you understand why I might fear, Robb?"

Most highborn flower at 12 or 13 according to Sansa's information but Alys, soon to be 16 and almost of an age with Jon didn't flower before the war so she likely flowered in late 14 or early 15. If Ashara had a child it would be a year or so older than Robb and Jon. so near 2 years older than Alys. If Alys flowered late, same can also apply to others, like Beric's betrothed Alyira.

Ashara and Arthur would be in their thirties (perhaps forties with Arthur) if they were alive, and Alyria can't even be twenty with what we have, So Lord and Lady Dayne had a child some 20 years after their last one?

If Ashara had any child, it is Alyria, not Danaerys, not Edric(I've seen this suggestion too), not anyone else.

 

Had he known, Ned would be very pleased with her daughter being betrothed to a man like Beric Dondarrion, a man not unlike Ned in his honor and duties.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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If Daenerys means "Dayne heiress" then why was the first Daenerys given that name? She had nothing to do with the Daynes and had no Dornish blood.

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This all still seems a bit silly to me. There is nothing in what you have presented that suggests that Ashara was Rhaegar's paramour at all. If she was, he'd be breaking the ultimate bro-code by dishonouring his best friend's sister. That would be 100% worse than her getting snubbed at a tourney. Ultimately, a lot of this theory seems to hark back to that Barristan line about Daenerys reminding him of Ashara, which I don't think means anything. Nor do I understand why Daenerys being the bastard daughter of Rhaegar would add to the story.

That said, I'm all for crackpot theories. After all, I am one of those filthy theorists who thinks Allyria is probably Ashara's daughter rather than her sister but that it was likely Brandon, not Ned, who fathered her. So, who am I to snub the more out-there theories.

If anything, I admire the effort you put into making your point! aha

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@AlaskanSandman

As always, I like your line of thinking Sandman :D 

But I still have the same critiques for this theory as when you first posted it.

First, and most importantly, I think you are misinterpreting the quote from Barristan about Ashara being dishonored. I think it is clear from that quote that the act of someone having sex with Ashara is what he considered the "dishonor" done to her, that it was one of the Stark brothers (purposely left ambiguous by GRRM) who had sex with her, and that Barristan naively thought if he had won the tourney and crowned Ashara QoLaB that she would have turned to him instead of Stark. And Barristan, being an "honorable" man, would not have dishonored her by having sex with her (dishonored by Barristan's moral standards which considered sex before marriage to be dishonorable, but not by Ashara's who was Dornish and therefore more sexually liberated). So if we continue with that train of logic, in order for Ashara to be mad with grief over the man who had dishonored her, that man must be Brandon, since he is dead and Ned is not.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Brandon Stark could not have been the one Ashara "looked to" following Lyanna being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty, as even House Dayne claim that Eddard and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal. Eddard and Ashara spent a night in a tent. Nothing about Brandon. The Stark she looked to was Eddard. 

I certainly wouldn't take Ned Dayne's story as "cannon", but even if Eddard and Ashara "fell in love" at HH, who's to say she didn't fall in love with both Stark brothers? More importantly, I think the clear implication from this line is that Brandon was the more confident and experienced womanizer (as we know he was) and much more likely to have sex with Ashara than Ned:

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

But also, when did Ned and Ashara spend a night in a tent? I assume you are referring to Ned offering HR a place in his tent. But my interpretation of that is that Ned was in his own tent and thus in a position to offer hospitality to HR. It may even be the case that they had extra room because Brandon was not in the tent that night, being with Ashara instead.

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7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Where does all these Danaerys secret parents posts and threads come I honestly have no idea.

 

Danaerys was born on Dragonstone during a storm that wiped away the Targaryen fleet, hence the name.

From all we know, during all this time Ashara was in Starfall, when Danaerys was born she was perhaps already dead or "dead", whichever you choose to believe.

Danaerys has a brother, Viserys,that was with their mother during all this time. Viserys was 8 if i remember right, so old enough to remember it all.

Stannis was building a fleet of his own during this time so he'd be watchful for any ships coming and going to Dragonstone, so not much chance of Ashara "dying" and then going to Dragonstone to give birth to Danaerys. so simply suggesting she drifted all that way from Starfall to Dragonstone would be more sensible.

All of this hangs by a single thread. Everything pinned on Viserys' telling the truth. Where we know one thing for certain, that he is not telling the truth about Dany's childhood. If he's lied about being in Braavos what else has he lied about? 

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9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But also, when did Ned and Ashara spend a night in a tent? I assume you are referring to Ned offering HR a place in his tent. But my interpretation of that is that Ned was in his own tent and thus in a position to offer hospitality to HR. It may even be the case that they had extra room because Brandon was not in the tent that night, being with Ashara instead.

Ooooo nice catch!

Howland being in Ned's tent has always meant to me what it suggests - that they were in there together and got to know each other. Seems to me it was the likely beginning of their bromance.

Edited by Faera

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20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So this will be my second attempt to approach this. This will be more simplified than before and more to the point, covering Ashara Dayne as the mother of Daenerys Targaryen. Possible paramour or surrogate mother to Rhaegar Targaryen.

I don't think this is out of the question.  I don't subscribe to the notion that everything has been figured out about parentage given that there is so much subterfuge and conniving in this story.   It's entirely possible that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter born on Dragonstone a year earlier than we have been told.  So don't stop questioning or thinking about the story so far. 

Edited by LynnS

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Nice work on pulling together all the book quotes for the OP.

I am all for alternative Dany background theories since all she knows comes second hand from Viserys who was just eight when she was born and is not trustworthy to begin with - and since a secret about her birth would keep up the symmetry between her and Jon's storylines.

However this theory like all alternative Dany theories has the problem of lack of evidence. GRRM just hasn't give us a lot to work with.

That's the reason why I still think it more likely that the official party line about her being the child of Aerys and Rhaella is right. I keep an open mind though and can't wait to find out which way GRRM will go.

BTW: there is one fact that actually contradicts the Rhaegar + Ashara theory IMO: Rhaegar already had two children with Elia. If both Jon AND Dany also were his kids then he'd have four, not three. That's one too many (at least if he really was trying to create 'three heads'.)

 

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29 minutes ago, Amris said:

BTW: there is one fact that actually contradicts the Rhaegar + Ashara theory IMO: Rhaegar already had two children with Elia. If both Jon AND Dany also were his kids then he'd have four, not three. That's one too many (at least if he really was trying to create 'three heads'.)

 

That's IF Jon is Rhaegar's kid and he may not be.  Dany would make sense if Rhaegar, Elia and Ashara returned to Dragonstone after the tourney of Harrenhal.  Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PwP.  Perhaps he wanted another daughter rather than a son as the third dragon rider.

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Where is the evidence Ashara was older than Edric Dayne's father? Because if she isn't, Edric is still the heir even if this conspiracy is true.

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13 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Where is the evidence Ashara was older than Edric Dayne's father? Because if she isn't, Edric is still the heir even if this conspiracy is true.

The heir to what?  The Dawn Sword?  That can only be claimed by one who is worthy.  House Dayne has stewardship of the sword, that's all.

If she has received anything that would come to an heiress; it's the dragon eggs.  At least one of them probably belonged to Rhaegar - the black egg.  What happened to the eggs they tried to hatch at Summerhall? Wouldn't they still be in Aerys' possession or perhaps kept at Dragonstone?

Edited by LynnS

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Ill cover every ones responses and i appreciate them but pressed for time atm. So ill cover something i covered in another thread.

This is if you except that R+L=J

Quote

 

Which leaves the mystery of Ashara Dayne only down to a few options

Eddard+Ashara Dayne= nothing but a still born child female child? Cause, not Jon. Ok, this answers most of the mystery it would seem. 

Just ignores Barristan's claim that Dany looks like Ashara. Just something tossed out for no reason? Meant to miss lead i guess?

Dany seeing Rhaegar so much, and even seeing her self as Rhaegar, is only because he is the only positive role model she never knew. 

Rhaella's miscarriages are also just a miss lead. More useless info. 

Rhaegar's seemingly weird eye contact with Dany when he mentions the Dragon needing three heads. Idk what you can conjure for that but im sure youll come up with something. 

The seemingly pointless story from Barristan about him losing to Rhaegar and not being able to crown Ashara. Which for some reason, him losing or idk what it is you think drove Ashara into the arms of Eddard. You guys honestly have me totally lost there. And the dishonor was her being raped or got with child, which again, would be born in 282ac. We dont have any major characters born then so that's out. Ashara doesn't kill her self till sometime near when Eddard goes to Starfall, at least in 283Ac. So she didn't kill her self soon after the baby died. We just have to keep shuffling things around. 

Eddard+Ashara Dayne= Daenerys.           Then she wouldn't need to be hidden, at all, for any reason at all. Other than to supposedly protect Rob's ascension to Lord of Winterfell??? ok. Even though he brought Jon home.

She wouldn't get dragons, so thats kinda out. Unless it was a new binding of bloodlines to the dragons. Maybe. But then why hide her and pretend she's a Targ?

 

Rhaegar+Ashara Dayne= Daenerys.

The only thing that explains the dishonor, what drove her into Eddards arms for a night. How Dany has dragons, why she's hunted, why her past is in question, and is the only thing that actually propels the story further.

        Dragons=Flaming Sword=Azor Ahai=The Sword of the Morning=Daenerys.    Who when morning broke, Jorah found her with the dragons. The Sword of the Morning. 

Which actually propels the story forward to the union between Dany and Jon. The very thing the story is building to. But is this union good or bad? The thing to achieve or the thing to prevent.

 

This is the only thing that propels the story forward and covers all mysteries. Every other theory falls apart in the end.

Since this only covers if you believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ill discuss later all the weird ideas still trying to peg Jon as the child of some one else. It literally just does not add up and not a single person ive talked to on here as presented an actual thought out conclusion to the end game on how their idea would actually play out. Just a lot of tearing apart single facts or ideas, which is expected. I just expect these other ideas to be able to provide something further than just their initial idea that so and so is the child of so and so because thats how i see it. Though you still dont have an idea towards the ending

Jon wielding Dawn and having no dragon connection, while fighting the Others as a typical boring hero figure goes against everyyyyyyything Martin has established. But sure.

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1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Where is the evidence Ashara was older than Edric Dayne's father? Because if she isn't, Edric is still the heir even if this conspiracy is true.

Lol yes, Edric is still the heir of Starfall. Just not the heir to The Sword of the Morning position. As noted above 

Dragons=Flaming Sword=Azor Ahai=The Sword of the Morning=Daenerys.    Who when morning broke, Jorah found her with the dragons. The Sword of the Morning. 

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1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Where is the evidence Ashara was older than Edric Dayne's father? Because if she isn't, Edric is still the heir even if this conspiracy is true.

The position is more than it seems at face value. Think Azor Ahai's legend. Dany will become Nissa Nissa in the end.

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Dany's womb quickening again is a key element in our story

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The heir to what?  The Dawn Sword?  That can only be claimed by one who is worthy.  House Dayne has stewardship of the sword, that's all.

If she has received anything that would come to an heiress; it's the dragon eggs.  At least one of them probably belonged to Rhaegar - the black egg.  What happened to the eggs they tried to hatch at Summerhall? Wouldn't they still be in Aerys' possession or perhaps kept at Dragonstone?

Yes, the dragons, the flaming sword above the world that Ser Jorah finds Dany with the Morning after the pyre. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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