The Dayne Heir(ess)- Daenerys

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

That was 282. The next year, the events go, the Battle of the Bells, then the wedding, the the Trident and sack of K.L.

Plus the fact the Tourney was late in the year of 281.

 

Placing the Starks in the south for the Tourney and prepping for the wedding after. 

 

I my self place Aegon's birth to Rhaegar before the Tourney as Rhaegar leaves after and kidnaps Lyanna. 

 

I dont believe there is an intentional issue with Little Fingers birth and the Siege of Storm's End.

 

That being said, i've seen many different ideas of the time line. The craziest to me is the Order of the Greenhands video on their theory. Which claims the war didn't start till 283, giving Eddard and Ashara enough time. 

 

Even if the Sack of K.L. was in march of 283 as i suspect, Brandon would have to die by june-july of 282 for that to happen, but that conflicts with Ned's marriage to Caitlynn. 

 

Yea i can't get behind the Brandon theory. Alot of people (Not you in particular) have to come up with something to get around it, like a guy can't tell his new bride isn't a virgin, when there's no blood. Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa. When Brandon him self says there's nothing like a bloody sword. 

I'm still not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Brandon died in early 282. As far as I know we don't have a date for the Cat-Brandon wedding. You seem to be assuming the Starks went straight from the HH tourney to the wedding, but I don't think that is the case. I was under the impression that a fair amount of time passed between those 2 events. I also don't think Lyanna was kidnapped immediately following the tourney. Rhaegar went all the way back to KL and then left at the beginning of 282 to meet up with Lyanna. So Brandon hearing about Lyanna's "kidnapping" and changing course for KL in early 282 makes sense. But then we don't know how long it took for Brandon to get to KL, Aerys to summon Rickard, Rickard to travel to KL, and the amount of time between Rickard's arrest and their executions. It is certainly possible that Brandon died in early 282 but I don't think we have enough info to make a super accurate guess. I think the best guess we can make actually places the start of the war (and Brandon's death) in late 282. Working backwards from the red comet seen by Dany -> red comet was in early 299 -> Dany became noticeably pregnant on her 14th birthday, which was presumably around the middle of 298 -> (f)Dany dates her birthday as being 9 months after the sack of KL, so the sack was in late 283 -> the rebellion lasted about 1 year with the sack being either "the end" of the war or close to it (if the lifting of siege at SE is considered to be end of war) therefore the war started in late 282.

Regardless, the actual point in time that the war started is kind of irrelevant. The only part of the timeline that really matters in order to make B+A=J possible is the amount of time in between Brandon's death (he would have to conceive Jon before dying, the latest possible moment being in the black cells right before his execution) and Cat's marriage to Ned which was purportedly (if we trust LF) right after the Battle of the Bells. And then of course the length of a pregnancy can vary, realistically from about 38 weeks to 43 weeks. So for example, if Jon was conceived directly before Brandon's death, Ashara had a 10 month pregnancy, Cat had a 8.5 month pregnancy (she says "9 moons later" but that doesn't necessarily mean 9 months exactly), and it was 3 months from Brandon's death to the Cat/Ned wedding, Jon would be about 6 weeks older than Robb, and Ned would lie about his age saying Jon was at least 6 weeks younger than he actually was, which is reasonable if, for example, Jon was 18 months old by the time Cat got to WF (we really don't know when Cat traveled to WF, but she gave birth to Robb at Riverrun and then waited for Ned to send for her). And that's just an example to show the theoretical timeline is at least possible. For all we know, it could have been 4 weeks between Brandon's death and the Cat/Ned wedding, making Jon potentially younger than Robb due to pregnancy time variations. I doubt that's the case, but I think it is possible considering how much GRRM likes to distort travel times.

Why do you suspect sack was in March of 283? Also, why would Brandon have to die by June-July of 282 for that to happen? And why would that conflict with Ned's marriage?

I agree with your point about the bloody sword, but I'm not sure which noble lady you are referring to, or how other people use that excuse to justify the Brandon theory.

Side note, I thought that the Battle of the Bells was definitely in 283 because the wiki says so, but I just did a bit of research and read through this whole thread too and as far as I can tell we have no confirmation or hint that the battle was in 283 and not 282. The only battle that is firmly dated I believe is in the revised/corrected version of TWOIAF which places the Trident in 283.

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just out of curiosity, is Eddard denying Jon the Lordship of Winterfell and allowing him to take the black, a secret punishment from Ned over his hatred of Brandon for knocking up his girl? Is Eddard petty now on top of one of the least honorable guys we've met?

lol that is an amusing thought, but I think Ned is denying Jon the Lordship of Winterfell and hiding is identity to protect the Stark-Tully alliance. The entire alliance is based on Cat's children inheriting WF, and I am sure Hoster would have been none too pleased to hear that Brandon's son was running around WF threatening Robb's claim with his mere existence, especially when the kingdoms were in a super fragile post-rebellion state and that alliance was a key factor in winning the war and maintaining peace afterward.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm still not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Brandon died in early 282. As far as I know we don't have a date for the Cat-Brandon wedding. You seem to be assuming the Starks went straight from the HH tourney to the wedding, but I don't think that is the case. I was under the impression that a fair amount of time passed between those 2 events. I also don't think Lyanna was kidnapped immediately following the tourney. Rhaegar went all the way back to KL and then left at the beginning of 282 to meet up with Lyanna. So Brandon hearing about Lyanna's "kidnapping" and changing course for KL in early 282 makes sense. But then we don't know how long it took for Brandon to get to KL, Aerys to summon Rickard, Rickard to travel to KL, and the amount of time between Rickard's arrest and their executions. It is certainly possible that Brandon died in early 282 but I don't think we have enough info to make a super accurate guess. I think the best guess we can make actually places the start of the war (and Brandon's death) in late 282. Working backwards from the red comet seen by Dany -> red comet was in early 299 -> Dany became noticeably pregnant on her 14th birthday, which was presumably around the middle of 298 -> (f)Dany dates her birthday as being 9 months after the sack of KL, so the sack was in late 283 -> the rebellion lasted about 1 year with the sack being either "the end" of the war or close to it (if the lifting of siege at SE is considered to be end of war) therefore the war started in late 282.

Regardless, the actual point in time that the war started is kind of irrelevant. The only part of the timeline that really matters in order to make B+A=J possible is the amount of time in between Brandon's death (he would have to conceive Jon before dying, the latest possible moment being in the black cells right before his execution) and Cat's marriage to Ned which was purportedly (if we trust LF) right after the Battle of the Bells. And then of course the length of a pregnancy can vary, realistically from about 38 weeks to 43 weeks. So for example, if Jon was conceived directly before Brandon's death, Ashara had a 10 month pregnancy, Cat had a 8.5 month pregnancy (she says "9 moons later" but that doesn't necessarily mean 9 months exactly), and it was 3 months from Brandon's death to the Cat/Ned wedding, Jon would be about 6 weeks older than Robb, and Ned would lie about his age saying Jon was at least 6 weeks younger than he actually was, which is reasonable if, for example, Jon was 18 months old by the time Cat got to WF (we really don't know when Cat traveled to WF, but she gave birth to Robb at Riverrun and then waited for Ned to send for her). And that's just an example to show the theoretical timeline is at least possible. For all we know, it could have been 4 weeks between Brandon's death and the Cat/Ned wedding, making Jon potentially younger than Robb due to pregnancy time variations. I doubt that's the case, but I think it is possible considering how much GRRM likes to distort travel times.

Why do you suspect sack was in March of 283? Also, why would Brandon have to die by June-July of 282 for that to happen? And why would that conflict with Ned's marriage?

I agree with your point about the bloody sword, but I'm not sure which noble lady you are referring to, or how other people use that excuse to justify the Brandon theory.

Side note, I thought that the Battle of the Bells was definitely in 283 because the wiki says so, but I just did a bit of research and read through this whole thread too and as far as I can tell we have no confirmation or hint that the battle was in 283 and not 282. The only battle that is firmly dated I believe is in the revised/corrected version of TWOIAF which places the Trident in 283.

lol that is an amusing thought, but I think Ned is denying Jon the Lordship of Winterfell and hiding is identity to protect the Stark-Tully alliance. The entire alliance is based on Cat's children inheriting WF, and I am sure Hoster would have been none too pleased to hear that Brandon's son was running around WF threatening Robb's claim with his mere existence, especially when the kingdoms were in a super fragile post-rebellion state and that alliance was a key factor in winning the war and maintaining peace afterward.

 

Well youd have to give me a min to respond to all of this as you bring up so many varying points of time to touch upon. Not a bad thing and is needed, just a lot haha Skipping past some of that for the moment though.

I did concede to one guy that Little Fingers dating around his age, is up in the air. After i got done arguing that i still think theres no real problem in the dating, and probably just comes down to Caitlynn using rough time frames rather than precise ones. This is generally what i discount all this time stuff too. As I my self, never saw it as an issue while reading or since. That being said, there are differing accounts though that do leave room for these arguments. 

Good point about the Battle of the Bells though as i just did a quick search too. Though i seem to remember something saying that it was the first battle of 283. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert's warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.

Assuming this is still in the first quarter of 300Ac. or no more than past 2 quater 300Ac. Then this places the Battle of the Bells in the first half, if not first quarter of 283.

Caitlyn says that when the day came, it was Ned she wed. As Brandon died a few days before he was to wed Cat. There is no way Ned married Cat the same day Brandon was to have. You also have to account for the Battle of Gulltown, Eddards journey North and his travels back south to meet up with Robert who had sailed to Storms End, won 3 battles in a single day sure, but then went back to Storms End and feasted the defeated men and took them hunting. Then he went to Summerhal where he lost and then retreated to the Stoney Sept. Brandon was still only 20 when he died, after battling little finger who was "scarcely fifteen" at the time. Meaning he was possibly 14 just shy of 15. In early 282. Turning 15 real soon. Or he had just turned 15. If he was 14 though, then when Cat see's him in 298, 16 years later abouts, he was around 30 as she remarks. "just shy of 30" may have just been Caitlyn misspeaking. So, the very specific word choosing of Martin leads me to think, this is a non issue. And that the duel was early in 282 or late 282 right after the Tourney. And sorry but, Cat remembers Brandon telling her to wait for him, then never returning. So he was with Cat before riding up to meet his father, where upon, some wheres along the way, he learned of Lyanna's abduction. So more than likely, the Stark children had gone to Harrenhal with out their father who was coming down the road shortly after to meet them after for the wedding. Which would have been the original Stark Tully alliance. Before the war even started. 

And yea, Ashara i guess could have slipped into the dungeons but really? Brandon, in the dark with rats, covered in his own shit and piss. And they made love......... Um. Ok. Never mind that i dont think enough time still happens between this event and Jon's birth or Danys birth. That's just gross. 

That last bit has some decent logic in it at least, i can agree to some of that. What i can't agree to, is the idea Brandon low balled his brother like that after going out of his way to hook Ned up with a dance. Specially given the lack of intense hatred for Brandon on Eddard's part. Eddard feeling under prepared for the task and responsibility thrust upon him after Brandon's death is hardly enough to suggest he hated his brother. 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept.

This btw, i think is the ancient story. A lil off point but i think it's fun to point out. In the Age of Heroes, the Dragon and the Stag fought, but the Dragon didn't kill the stag, this time, the stag and dragon must die to bring back balance.

the-og-dance

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

I will say that there are some story beats in your theory that work through the ancient stories though. If you look at the link i shared. There is evidence for 2 brothers having fought over a woman. Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight is one such example. Though Aemon is the younger brother who dies, but is also the honorable one. Who's questioned as being the true father of Naerys's child. Though, this tale is unproven and just works into more people not being who they think they are. Some of the same pieces are there though, just jumbled up. Though, again, my feeling stand the same. No evidence to suggest Eddard hated his brother or that Brandon would low ball Eddard in such a way. I do try to look at all sides reasonably though and even pull evidence when i can for such theories to try to support them if i can. Im not just trying to senselessly rail against the Brandon or Eddard theories. 

That being said though, perhaps some one should accumulate all the tales of the war and who and when the information is being said by. This may be a thread people would love to debate over. 

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Certainly Varys had once been young. Ned doubted that he had ever been innocent. "You mention children. Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once."

"Alas," said Varys. "At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown. But I shall do what I can, my lord. With your leave." He bowed and vanished down the steps, his soft-soled slippers whispering against the stone as he made his descent.

 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

 

Dont let people get it twisted. Ned doesn't think of broken promises till a key event happens. His failure to prevent the assassination attempt on Dany. Right after the first quote, Eddard is summoned to the Throne room where he is taken hostage and thrown in the cells for quote 2. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

47 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Find a quote and you might be working with something

A quote about what in particular?  

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I assume this is Joffery you speak of?

No, when Cersei is building her case to bring down Margaery with the Faith she has men that come forward that claim to have slept with Margaery while she was married to Tommen. A Septa examines Margaery and according to her Margaery's maidenhead is no longer intact. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Since gay Renly wouldn't care a fig. Again though, losing her virginity didn't hurt Margery's chances of marrying a high lord or a King.

Except Margaery claims to have never lost her virginity to Renly or anyone else, and that she entered her marriage to Joffrey and then Tommen as a virgin.  Margaery claimed that Renly had drunk to much wine at the feast and was unable to consummate the marriage.  Margaery even fasts on Maiden's day which is something only virgins do. So Margaery is very much claiming to still be a virgin whether is true or not. Her loss of maidenhead certainly did not help her in the last two books regardless.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So still doesn't prove Brandon banged Ashara and dishonored her to all.

I wasn't trying to proof that. At this point it can't really be proved or disproved. I was actually replying to this comment you made.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i can't get behind the Brandon theory. Alot of people (Not you in particular) have to come up with something to get around it, like a guy can't tell his new bride isn't a virgin, when there's no blood. Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaa.

The absence of blood does not prove a women did or did not enter her marriage as a virgin. Here is a quote from the books that supports this.

A pity. Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord's daughter is more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk. A Feast for Crows-  Cersei VI

To @Dorian Martell's son's point, only pregnancy can truly make a young unmarried highborn Lady's lose of virginity public knowledge. Barbrey did not get pregnant therefore could have claimed to have entered her marriage a virgin at the time. House Ryswell is known for their horses after all.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well youd have to give me a min to respond to all of this as you bring up so many varying points of time to touch upon. Not a bad thing and is needed, just a lot haha Skipping past some of that for the moment though.

I did concede to one guy that Little Fingers dating around his age, is up in the air. After i got done arguing that i still think theres no real problem in the dating, and probably just comes down to Caitlynn using rough time frames rather than precise ones. This is generally what i discount all this time stuff too. As I my self, never saw it as an issue while reading or since. That being said, there are differing accounts though that do leave room for these arguments. 

Good point about the Battle of the Bells though as i just did a quick search too. Though i seem to remember something saying that it was the first battle of 283. 

Assuming this is still in the first quarter of 300Ac. or no more than past 2 quater 300Ac. Then this places the Battle of the Bells in the first half, if not first quarter of 283.

Caitlyn says that when the day came, it was Ned she wed. As Brandon died a few days before he was to wed Cat. There is no way Ned married Cat the same day Brandon was to have. You also have to account for the Battle of Gulltown, Eddards journey North and his travels back south to meet up with Robert who had sailed to Storms End, won 3 battles in a single day sure, but then went back to Storms End and feasted the defeated men and took them hunting. Then he went to Summerhal where he lost and then retreated to the Stoney Sept. Brandon was still only 20 when he died, after battling little finger who was "scarcely fifteen" at the time. Meaning he was possibly 14 just shy of 15. In early 282. Turning 15 real soon. Or he had just turned 15. If he was 14 though, then when Cat see's him in 298, 16 years later abouts, he was around 30 as she remarks. "just shy of 30" may have just been Caitlyn misspeaking. So, the very specific word choosing of Martin leads me to think, this is a non issue. And that the duel was early in 282 or late 282 right after the Tourney. And sorry but, Cat remembers Brandon telling her to wait for him, then never returning. So he was with Cat before riding up to meet his father, where upon, some wheres along the way, he learned of Lyanna's abduction. So more than likely, the Stark children had gone to Harrenhal with out their father who was coming down the road shortly after to meet them after for the wedding. Which would have been the original Stark Tully alliance. Before the war even started. 

And yea, Ashara i guess could have slipped into the dungeons but really? Brandon, in the dark with rats, covered in his own shit and piss. And they made love......... Um. Ok. Never mind that i dont think enough time still happens between this event and Jon's birth or Danys birth. That's just gross. 

That last bit has some decent logic in it at least, i can agree to some of that. What i can't agree to, is the idea Brandon low balled his brother like that after going out of his way to hook Ned up with a dance. Specially given the lack of intense hatred for Brandon on Eddard's part. Eddard feeling under prepared for the task and responsibility thrust upon him after Brandon's death is hardly enough to suggest he hated his brother. 

I will say that there are some story beats in your theory that work through the ancient stories though. If you look at the link i shared. There is evidence for 2 brothers having fought over a woman. Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight is one such example. Though Aemon is the younger brother who dies, but is also the honorable one. Who's questioned as being the true father of Naerys's child. Though, this tale is unproven and just works into more people not being who they think they are. Some of the same pieces are there though, just jumbled up. Though, again, my feeling stand the same. No evidence to suggest Eddard hated his brother or that Brandon would low ball Eddard in such a way. I do try to look at all sides reasonably though and even pull evidence when i can for such theories to try to support them if i can. Im not just trying to senselessly rail against the Brandon or Eddard theories. 

That being said though, perhaps some one should accumulate all the tales of the war and who and when the information is being said by. This may be a thread people would love to debate over. 

The wiki is the only thing I have found saying the battle was in 283. As for JonCon's quote, it is very unspecific. Hypothetically, let's say that chapter took place in April of 300 AC (which is where the fan-made precise timeline puts it). He is almost definitely just rounding to the number of whole years. And by the language I assume it has been at least 17 years. But that could easily mean it has been, say, 17 years and 6 months which would place the battle in October 282. The line "17 years had come and gone" would still make perfect sense if the battle was 17 years and 6 months in the past. But it's not really important, just an interesting side note.  

You may be right about the Starks going straight from HH to Riverrun, but also not super important for the sake of this discussion.

Yeah I totally agree Cat's language was a tiny bit misleading and Ned certainly didn't wed Cat on her original wedding date.

If Ashara and Brandon were in love and he was about to die, yeah I think they would definitely hook up one last time if they had the chance, regardless of the disgusting conditions, and especially if Ashara (and/or Varys) was concerned with trying to give birth to a prophecy-fulfilling baby like many other characters in the story (Rhaegar, Drogo, Jaehaerys, etc). House Dayne is purportedly 10,000 years old, which would make their line pre-date the Long Night. Who knows what kind of crazy prophecy knowledge they are holding on to. Yes, having sex in such conditions would be gross, but you have to ask yourself: If the person you loved were going to die the next day, would you give up one last chance to have sex just because it's dirty and there are some rats nearby? I think saying that Brandon was "covered" in his own shit may be an exaggeration. And again, regarding the timeline, what it really boils down to is: Is it possible that the amount of time between Brandon's death and Ned's wedding was somewhere within 1-4 months (4 months probably being the longest timeframe that would allow Ned to lie about Jon's age)? And for ToJ Dany (according to that SSM saying Dany is probably 8-9 months younger than Jon), is it possible that the ToJ took place 4-6 months after the sack of KL? Considering that GRRM likes to distort travel times, and we don't have the specifics to actually know the details for either of those questions, I think the answer is yes, both of those things are possible. Similarly, I think the traditional R+L=J timeline is possible but would potentially require Ned and his party to travel at super speeds after the sack to lift the siege and find the ToJ.

As for the bit about Brandon "low balling" Ned, I disagree with your premise entirely. Firstly, we have no idea if Ned was ever in love with Ashara. That's certainly the public story. But Ned never thinks about Ashara once. We can assume that he thought she was hot, which everyone said she was, and he was too shy to ask her for a dance, and Brandon asked her for him. If I was Ashara, I would probably find Brandon more attractive in that scenario because he displayed confidence, while Ned did not. And Brandon had plenty of experience with women, while Ned clearly had none, again making Brandon more attractive. So if I was Ashara, I would be trying to hook up with Brandon at the tourney. And if I were the confident womanizer Brandon at a tourney with a bunch of ladies, I would probably find the hottest one and try to hook up with her, which according to our eye witness Barristan was Ashara. And I certainly wouldn't say to myself, Oh, I'm not going to hook up with Ashara because my little brother thought she was cute and danced with her, even though he clearly has no chance with her due to a supreme lack of confidence. I just love my little brother Ned so much and would never want to hurt his fragile feelings over this girl that we both just met a few hours ago and he danced with for 5 minutes. Cat's description of Ned on their wedding night also implies that he had never been with a woman before Cat, though that point is more ambiguous. Anyways, assuming that Brandon and Ashara had sex at the tourney and Ned knew about it, I doubt that Ned would hate Brandon. He barely knew Ashara at all. He might have had an instant crush on her, but he certainly didn't know her well enough to be in love with her in any meaningful way. Additionally, I disagree with your characterization of Brandon "going out of his way" to hook Ned up with a dance. That is a professional womanizer move right there. Go over to Ashara, hit on her, and display your confidence by asking her for a dance for Ned, effectively cock-blocking Ned and making yourself look attractive in the process. Well played, Brandon.

I do think the whole Eddard-Brandon-Ashara love triangle is meant to play off the same themes as the story of Aemon and Naerys. GRRM certainly likes to write about love triangles.

[AlaskanSandman]

@Ralphis Baratheon (well put argument by the way, its late though so im making this quick) and @40 Thousand Skeletons

Why does Eddard think of broken promises only after failing to stop the assassination attempt on Dany? The association of Dany and the broken promise is only possible if Dany is the child of Lyanna, and or Rhaegar's. To which Lyanna would have been aware of and likely tied to why Rhaegar was having Jon with her to begin with, full filling prophecy. Lyanna and Daenerys are tied, and if it's not cause Dany is her's then it's cause Dany is still Rhaegar's child. I dont see any other way around this. Why else is he thinking of broken promises? 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Certainly Varys had once been young. Ned doubted that he had ever been innocent. "You mention children. Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once."

"Alas," said Varys. "At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown. But I shall do what I can, my lord. With your leave." He bowed and vanished down the steps, his soft-soled slippers whispering against the stone as he made his descent.

 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

 

 

It was always only about Eddard protecting the children.

[Noel E Mahc]

On 10/23/2017 at 0:12 PM, LynnS said:

Baloney...  a dead rose from Harrenhal.  Sorry that makes me laugh.  That's strictly romantic projection by readers

 

Thanks for saying that!  I used to roll my eyes when I would see it, lol.

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

To @Dorian Martell's son's point, only pregnancy can truly make a young unmarried highborn Lady's lose of virginity public knowledge. Barbrey did not get pregnant therefore could have claimed to have entered her marriage a virgin at the time. House Ryswell is known for their horses after all.

bingo 

[Frey family reunion]

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why does Eddard think of broken promises only after failing to stop the assassination attempt on Dany? The association of Dany and the broken promise is only possible if Dany is the child of Lyanna, and or Rhaegar's. To which Lyanna would have been aware of and likely tied to why Rhaegar was having Jon with her to begin with, full filling prophecy. Lyanna and Daenerys are tied, and if it's not cause Dany is her's then it's cause Dany is still Rhaegar's child. I dont see any other way around this. Why else is he thinking of broken promises? 

I don't have a problem with your main theory.  I personally don't think that Dany is the daughter of Rahella, and Dany as Ashara's daughter I consider one of the main possibilities.  It's an interesting thought about the blood and broken promises as being associated with the assassination attempt on Dany, but I do have a few questions.  Forgive me if you have already covered this, but how would Eddard know that Visery's "sister" who is the subject of the assassination attempt was Ashara's daughter as opposed to Rahella's daughter?  Eddard would not have been aware of a Ashara's daughter being brought to Braavos to pose as Visery's sister, or would he have?

[maudisdottir]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why does Eddard think of broken promises only after failing to stop the assassination attempt on Dany? The association of Dany and the broken promise is only possible if Dany is the child of Lyanna, and or Rhaegar's. To which Lyanna would have been aware of and likely tied to why Rhaegar was having Jon with her to begin with, full filling prophecy. Lyanna and Daenerys are tied, and if it's not cause Dany is her's then it's cause Dany is still Rhaegar's child. I dont see any other way around this. Why else is he thinking of broken promises? 

I don't see the connection between Ned dreaming about broken promises and Dany's assassination attempt - Ned dreams (plural) of broken promises (plural) when he's in pain in the black cells, after his coup fails. He doesn't think about Dany once in the preceding passages. Why is "broken promises" so important? Are you saying it's because he broke more than one promise, or something else?

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't have a problem with your main theory.  I personally don't think that Dany is the daughter of Rahella, and Dany as Ashara's daughter I consider one of the main possibilities.  It's an interesting thought about the blood and broken promises as being associated with the assassination attempt on Dany, but I do have a few questions.  Forgive me if you have already covered this, but how would Eddard know that Visery's "sister" who is the subject of the assassination attempt was Ashara's daughter as opposed to Rahella's daughter?  Eddard would not have been aware of a Ashara's daughter being brought to Braavos to pose as Visery's sister, or would he have?

Well i suspect that Ashara birthed on dragonstone. That the 5 missing Stark men are the 5 that broke into the nursery. That Eddard sent them to rescue Ashara's baby. They then rescued the only child in the nursery, unaware of Rhealla's miscarriage or any of it. I suspect Varys as a part of this plot, hence Eddards association with him already having entered the small council and liking Varys the least. The 5 men sneaking in under disguise and most dying to get them out would account for most it. With the last few pieces being, where did William/Willem take Dany, and who killed William/Willem.

I think Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar and feel it's a waste of time even debating Jon with people. Something about Martin lying to Hbo, who pays him, seems really stupid. Specially seeing as he hopes to do continued business with them but hey, i hear lying is a great way to do business and make friends. This sounds like the biggest wish fulfillment and the desperation of people who can't admit to being wrong. 

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

I don't see the connection between Ned dreaming about broken promises and Dany's assassination attempt - Ned dreams (plural) of broken promises (plural) when he's in pain in the black cells, after his coup fails. He doesn't think about Dany once in the preceding passages. Why is "broken promises" so important? Are you saying it's because he broke more than one promise, or something else?

Yes, im saying the promise was more than to just protect Jon, who is safe in the North. What else could the promise be? If not to protect the children? Which is what Eddard constantly thinks about, the children. Even tipping his hand with Cersei just to give her the chance to save her kids. This isn't Eddard making a threat cause he's mad she mentioned Ashara. He went there with the intention of warning her to get her kids out while letting her know he was still telling Robert. He could not have known that she's throw Ashara out there. To which he doesn't even bat an eye, just proceeds to warn her to get her kids out and mentions how he doesn't kill children. 

And his coup is not promised to any one and thus, is not part of broken promises.

[AlaskanSandman]

I have a hard time keeping track of every ones differing ideas that i have to debate against, but if i have it right. Some of you feel that Jon is the child of Ashara and Brandon, and im assuming Dany is the child of Rhaella and Aerys?? So where does that leave "promise me Ned?"

Jon is the child of Ashara and Eddard..... again, where does this leave "Promise me Ned?" 

Or is this one of those clues that gets conveniently left out of the picture? Or was it something stupid, like "Ned, promise me you'll water my roses"? 

[AlaskanSandman]

Or was it "promise me you'll forgive Brandon?" and the bed of blood was a bad round of S&M? Then Eddard, (leaving the Tower with no baby and a strange promise) goes to Starfall and finds Ashara with Brandons baby? or finds Ashara with his baby? Im so lost. Wylla and Eddards lie about Jon was to protect Brandon and Ashara? So Jon is still illegitimate or no? Or is it simply that he gets to wield Dawn and fight the Others in an epic battle like the typical hero figure? and Dany will join up with her dragons and it'lll be awesome? Is Jon Azor or is Dany Azor? So there is no union of Ice and Fire i guess? Since Jon isn't a Targ and Dany isn't a Stark? Again, im so lost as to where these theories are supposed to lead. Since no body has yet ever explained to me how these ideas are supposed to play out.

Or am i missing something and Eddard had Jon before the Tower of Joy or Starfall? I mean, the Dayne's can't be fire since most of the people who have debated these subjects also dont seem to see any connection between House Dayne, the Valyrians, or the Empire of the Dawn. So House Dayne apparently is just some random nobody house and we're all making a bigger deal of them than there really is. Again, it's hard to keep track since most people just seem to be arguing things just to argue them. A thought full implication towards the stories end or how these events are even supposed to have fully worked out. And since these people are sooooo positive about Jon's mystery and that Dany isn't a mystery. Im really curious their thoughts on Dany's past, and her thoughts of Lemon Trees and a Red Door with Grass fields. Or the marriage pact between Dorne and Darry under the Sea Lord of Braavos. Not just some dismissive account that comes down to you dont know but it's not a mystery. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Other people have put out ideas that Dany was the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and that Jon is the child of Brandon. Still dont buy it. For all of Preston's wild ideas, he's yet to come up with an idea of how this plays out into the story. Specially since he thinks the story is gonna end in peace. 

The Order of the Green Hands theories are far more weak than Preston Jacobs IMO, and i still dont agree with Preston. But Rhaegar is Mance and Went is Halfhand? or Dayne? I can't remember or keep track, both are just silly to me. I dont think for a second that Mance and Rhaegar are the same person. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

@Ralphis Baratheon (well put argument by the way, its late though so im making this quick) and @40 Thousand Skeletons

Why does Eddard think of broken promises only after failing to stop the assassination attempt on Dany? The association of Dany and the broken promise is only possible if Dany is the child of Lyanna, and or Rhaegar's. To which Lyanna would have been aware of and likely tied to why Rhaegar was having Jon with her to begin with, full filling prophecy. Lyanna and Daenerys are tied, and if it's not cause Dany is her's then it's cause Dany is still Rhaegar's child. I dont see any other way around this. Why else is he thinking of broken promises? 

Well I think there could potentially be other explanations for broken promises but I basically agree with you. That's why I think R+L=D, and B+A=J. But I think Lyanna making Ned promise to protect Rhaegar's child via Ashara would be weird, as I don't think Lyanna was concerned with prophecy babies. Lyanna making Ned promise to protect her own child, Dany, would make much more sense. And Ned couldn't hide Targ-haired Dany at WF, so he swapped her with Jon who he could claim as his own son. Why Ashara gave her son to Ned is another question.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Other people have put out ideas that Dany was the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and that Jon is the child of Brandon. Still dont buy it. For all of Preston's wild ideas, he's yet to come up with an idea of how this plays out into the story. Specially since he thinks the story is gonna end in peace. 

The Order of the Green Hands theories are far more weak than Preston Jacobs IMO, and i still dont agree with Preston. But Rhaegar is Mance and Went is Halfhand? or Dayne? I can't remember or keep track, both are just silly to me. I dont think for a second that Mance and Rhaegar are the same person. 

I don't bother watching Order of the Green Hands, because I have read enough absurd things attributed to them that I know they are silly people. Rhaegar is not Mance. There is just no way that's true.

I don't understand your point about the story ending in peace being incompatible with R+L=D. PJ himself has never taken a shot at explaining the ultimate role of Jon and/or Dany, but I have specifically done so in my COTF master plan theory. Basically, I think the weirnet, acting as a master puppeteer and a sort of primitive genetic engineer, caused the births of Jon and Dany on purpose because the 2 sets of parents (B+A and R+L) had special genes necessary for its grand plan. And now the weirnet is building up Jon and Dany to be the ones to lead mankind to war against the Others. My best guess for the weirnet's motivations is that it is ultimately trying to create a new dynasty of incestuous super powerful dragon lords/wargs with Jon and Dany starting the dynasty. And I think that something about their powerful genes will also make their dynasty vulnerable to being telepathically enslaved by the weirnet, but particularly by the powers of Bran, who the weirnet is trying to absorb into itself like it did with Bloodraven and all the other greenseers of the past. So basically, the weirnet wants to enslave humanity, and the best way to do that is to create a new dynasty with absolute power (true absolute power maintained by dragons and skinchanging abilities) and then enslave the people in that dynastic family, giving the weirnet absolute power over basically everyone (at least Westeros and Essos to start). BUT, I think Bran is going to sabotage this master plan and (possibly) destroy the weirnet, and with the help of Jon forge a peace deal between humans and the Others. But that doesn't make the war irrelevant, and I do think the Others will fight humans for at least a little while before any peace deal is made.

And for the record, I would be fine with the theory that R+L=J and B+A=D, but then Dany would be the wrong age. I am also fine with the traditional R+L=J and Dany=Dany, but then I have no idea what the whole point of the Brandon+Ashara relationship was.

[AlaskanSandman]

36 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well I think there could potentially be other explanations for broken promises but I basically agree with you. That's why I think R+L=D, and B+A=J. But I think Lyanna making Ned promise to protect Rhaegar's child via Ashara would be weird, as I don't think Lyanna was concerned with prophecy babies. Lyanna making Ned promise to protect her own child, Dany, would make much more sense. And Ned couldn't hide Targ-haired Dany at WF, so he swapped her with Jon who he could claim as his own son. Why Ashara gave her son to Ned is another question.

To a man that just killed her brother at the least, if not the man who actually broke her heart as some on here feel. 

Dany being Lyanna's would make sense for the promise, i agree. The problem i have, is Eddards lack of interest in her life beyond protecting her this one known time. If she was indeed of his blood, he would have done more, like he did for Jon. Just my opinion though