Curled Finger

Fire or Blood?

37 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Tinfoil: Not just flame, not just dragonflame, not just blood, not just Targ blood, but Aegon's soul itself went into the blade.

Ice preserves, and we see the souls of the dead preserved in Weirwood.

Fire consumes, and we see Dragons awakened from stone when death pays for life.

but if ice can burn and fire can be frozen then perhaps Valyrian steel can preserve souls... 

and if so, then the Other way might be when ice consumes a soul.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ice preserves, and we see the souls of the dead preserved in Weirwood.

Fire consumes, and we see Dragons awakened from stone when death pays for life.

but if ice can burn and fire can be frozen then perhaps Valyrian steel can preserve souls... 

and if so, then the Other way might be when ice consumes a soul.

I suspect that is what the Others are- ice that has "consumed" a soul. Likewise dragons and volcanic fire.

Edited by hiemal

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Not my idea, brother, I like my sword math right where it is to be honest.    This thing with Ice being reforged could go in many directions I guess.  Reforging Ice to go beyond the Wall means little to me other than a possible avenue to reveal more about the original sword.    As far as I'm concerned with the whole thing it opens up the possibility for Brightroar to return and keep the math intact.   I feel like I've been playing mesmerized with all the possibilities.   Still its time to man up and make choices.   I'm not as sentimental as some readers.  I don't want Ice reforged, but i think it likely unless you've got something better for Gendry to do?   

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

@Curled Finger

Where does the fact that Ned's Ice wasn't the original Ice fit in to your theory? 

The Greatsword Ice we see reforged wasn't acquired by the Starks until after the rise of Valyria... long after the Long Night.

 

Sent faster than I meant to,  I'm curious as to why you bring the original ICE up?  Do you think the original ICE was lightbringer or even Dawn perhaps?   Do you think that even if the original shows up it would have some bearing on the magic our more  current ICE can perform?   

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2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Tinfoil: Not just flame, not just dragonflame, not just blood, not just Targ blood, but Aegon's soul itself went into the blade.

I was kind of going there specifically with Blackfyre, but if any fire darkens a blade, would it really matter that Blackfyre darkened there?  I like where you're going with this, I just can't find anything to back it up.  I know you like to toss things around perhaps this will amuse you:  If Blackfyre really did drink Aegon's soul, what does it say about Blackfyre being the symbol of usurpers?  

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what exactly the new book said about blackfyre? 

I am confused about "darkening" here. 

If you burn a metal sword in fire it will become dark because of carbon ashes right? 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I was kind of going there specifically with Blackfyre, but if any fire darkens a blade, would it really matter that Blackfyre darkened there?  I like where you're going with this, I just can't find anything to back it up.  I know you like to toss things around perhaps this will amuse you:  If Blackfyre really did drink Aegon's soul, what does it say about Blackfyre being the symbol of usurpers?  

This is kind of a complicated answer:

The eclipse is the heavenly symbol of usurpation- the fiery crown in profile pic which stands in for Aegon's black iron and rubies as well as the Bloodstone Emperor's. The sword is the moon and its phases, bright steel and dark depending on arcane conditions during forging that even drink or usurp the light (and souls under the right circumstances). I think there is a reason VS cost so much, and it was that Dragonlords bartered their offspring in the forging.

Semi-unrelated spitball:

One or more of the missing VS steel swords has been melted down by the Citadel, providing links for the ambitious but more importantly for the Maester's agenda removing a magical artifact from play.

Edited by hiemal

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On 11/14/2017 at 5:31 PM, purple-eyes said:

what exactly the new book said about blackfyre? 

I am confused about "darkening" here. 

If you burn a metal sword in fire it will become dark because of carbon ashes right? 

Sons of the Dragon has a passage that states Blackfyre was placed with Aegon 1 in his funeral pyre.  Vhaghar puffed a little spark which lit the presumably wood pyre, cremating Aegon.  When Blackfyre was removed from the immolation the blade was darker.  Blackfyre is a magic sword, supposedly impervious to common fire.   Darkening is not an impervious reaction.    

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On 11/14/2017 at 5:58 PM, hiemal said:

This is kind of a complicated answer:

The eclipse is the heavenly symbol of usurpation- the fiery crown in profile pic which stands in for Aegon's black iron and rubies as well as the Bloodstone Emperor's. The sword is the moon and its phases, bright steel and dark depending on arcane conditions during forging that even drink or usurp the light (and souls under the right circumstances). I think there is a reason VS cost so much, and it was that Dragonlords bartered their offspring in the forging.

Semi-unrelated spitball:

One or more of the missing VS steel swords has been melted down by the Citadel, providing links for the ambitious but more importantly for the Maester's agenda removing a magical artifact from play.

Or those devious bastards at the Citadel know how to make VS.  

Dragon lords bartered their offspring in the forging?   Care to elaborate on that, friend?

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Or those devious bastards at the Citadel know how to make VS.  

Dragon lords bartered their offspring in the forging?   Care to elaborate on that, friend?

More wild tinfoil. I suspect that the power of blood, bone, skin, and flesh is all centered on anima or soul energy. Thus we have fragments of soul in such things as Rattleshirt's bones (they remember), the Ugly Girl's face, Bran's ravens (and probably Dany's dragons), as well as the oft-mentioned king's blood. If blood is the vehicle of power (not itself the source) we could have a more or less unified theory of magic. It's possible that the Valyrian foundries used the blood of slaves or slave children (witness Qohor's failed attempts to replicate the process) but that doesn't explain the high price of VS- slaves were common and cheap in the Freehold. I think that on top of the sacrifice of their unborn to the process of Dragonbonding (the many abominations and stillbirths that crop up due to the Dragonlords unnaturally close relationship with the beasts) they used their own precious ones (Nissa-Nissa redux) for the arcane process. Like calls to like, and thus Aegon's soul is drawn into his sword when dragonfire activates the steel. I'm thinking of staring a seperate thread spitballing the topic. Stay tuned for a A Game of Souls: Beyond Fire and Blood.

I think I've mentioned to you (as the forum's resident Sword scholar, IMHO) my tinfoil that one of the Lost Swords is hidden among the lesser steel in the Iron Throne and awaits Dragonfire to free it. Depending on who is sitting at the time, we could see a replay of Blackfyre's darkening?

 

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On 14/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, Curled Finger said:

As to reforging Ice...you know I hold my 12 + 1 swords very dear.  I believe we've got 14 VS Swords named.  All the swords are important, whether they come into play at the end or not. 

I don't think that Ice has to be reforged for being seen as one sword. OK and WW are already only one sword to me. 

On 14/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, Curled Finger said:

That's it, I'm done with Jamie Lannister and studying his sorry butt.   He screws up everything I think about everything. 

LoL why?

On 14/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, Curled Finger said:

I find myself persuaded by the constant reappearances of Gendry.    I hold Gendry in far less esteem than most readers.   He's not really anyone.    He wont be legitimized,   He won't rule Storms End or the Stormlands.    But he is a knight, which is a big deal, and he is a blacksmith, which got him his acceptance and eventually knight hood from the BWB.  He will do something important related to being both a knight and a blacksmith.  The obvious thing is reforging Ice.   I hate it but I can't come up with anything else this beloved if insignificant character can do to really impact the story.  Brightroar will have to come into play if that happens.  Yes, I'm afraid I'm getting ahead of myself in all this going straight for end game.    Sorry. 

I think he will be important as blacksmith too. Still don't know what he's gonna do about VS. I need a re-reading,  I think... As for Brightroar, you know, I think it will come back, not sure if in Asoiaf or in other stories. It is a greatsword, maybe Gendry could work 2 swords from it (?) ...

 

On 14/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, Curled Finger said:

Now my friend, let me pose the question of fire or blood to you again.  I think it's absolutely imperative to put dragonfire in its own category.  The only other thing that burns as hot as dragon fire is wildfyre,which the Qohori use to melt VS.  We've got a man made magical substance here.  Some of the red took to the steel in OK and WW.  Brienne mentions OK moving of its own accord and seeming to know where to land a blow many times.   Jon does the same with Longclaw.   There is some interesting talk of soul absorption above.  I've found no other mention of swords darkening, lightening or changing in any respect.  I'm taking Blackfyre's darkening as happening due to perhaps both fire and blood, the finished product, a magical sword, rejoining with the essence of its magic a burning Targaryen.   Though it says no common fire can harm VS, it doesn't  say dragon fire or wildfyre can't harm it.  If there is any harm to these weapons it is in pommels or adornment to the finished product.   I am getting the vibe that the sword blades can not be chipped or broken.  What say ye, Cridefea?

For all we know VS can only darkening. Even the red in OK is darken than it was intended. Black and dark colors absorb light, so I think in a magical way VS absorb  every substance touched. Fire for sure and probably a lot of blood. Don't know if Fire AND Blood together are something so powerful to change the color, but it is for sure a fascinating idea.   Still not sure about Lamentation, and now I'm wondering about Orphan maker too.

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7 hours ago, hiemal said:

More wild tinfoil. I suspect that the power of blood, bone, skin, and flesh is all centered on anima or soul energy. Thus we have fragments of soul in such things as Rattleshirt's bones (they remember), the Ugly Girl's face, Bran's ravens (and probably Dany's dragons), as well as the oft-mentioned king's blood. If blood is the vehicle of power (not itself the source) we could have a more or less unified theory of magic. It's possible that the Valyrian foundries used the blood of slaves or slave children (witness Qohor's failed attempts to replicate the process) but that doesn't explain the high price of VS- slaves were common and cheap in the Freehold. I think that on top of the sacrifice of their unborn to the process of Dragonbonding (the many abominations and stillbirths that crop up due to the Dragonlords unnaturally close relationship with the beasts) they used their own precious ones (Nissa-Nissa redux) for the arcane process. Like calls to like, and thus Aegon's soul is drawn into his sword when dragonfire activates the steel. I'm thinking of staring a seperate thread spitballing the topic. Stay tuned for a A Game of Souls: Beyond Fire and Blood.

I think I've mentioned to you (as the forum's resident Sword scholar, IMHO) my tinfoil that one of the Lost Swords is hidden among the lesser steel in the Iron Throne and awaits Dragonfire to free it. Depending on who is sitting at the time, we could see a replay of Blackfyre's darkening?

 

Hiemal, we are cheated when you abbreviate your responses.    I love this stuff.    And I love it even more when you explain it!   I'm so staying tuned for your Game of Souls!   Please let me know when it's ready!   

You have mentioned that you expected there was a VS sword in the IT.   That's as good a place as any in my book.   You've made some good comparison connections and I have to admit the Ugly Girl's face is one we all know and seem to overlook quite a bit.   We know the faces have their memories just as we know the VS swords also seem t remember.    TBH, I've got to ponder that one for a bit as I think it is a bigger consideration than I can give from my hip.    

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3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I don't think that Ice has to be reforged for being seen as one sword. OK and WW are already only one sword to me. 

LoL why?

I think he will be important as blacksmith too. Still don't know what he's gonna do about VS. I need a re-reading,  I think... As for Brightroar, you know, I think it will come back, not sure if in Asoiaf or in other stories. It is a greatsword, maybe Gendry could work 2 swords from it (?) ...

For all we know VS can only darkening. Even the red in OK is darken than it was intended. Black and dark colors absorb light, so I think in a magical way VS absorb  every substance touched. Fire for sure and probably a lot of blood. Don't know if Fire AND Blood together are something so powerful to change the color, but it is for sure a fascinating idea.   Still not sure about Lamentation, and now I'm wondering about Orphan maker too.

Glad you're back.  Let's start with the hardest to explain.    I have been gearing up for a reread but conversation has led me to reread quite a bit of Jamie lately.   This character deserves an award.  But his ideas and thoughts and actions often lead me to get completely behind him, which doesn't make for great objective reading.    I'm staying away from him.   

That's really sweet Cridefea, that you consider OK and WW still to be 1 sword.    And they may be yet.   I just imagine that each sword has magic and purpose, but that is clouded by how important I hold the math.   

Yah, that was the point of the topic, is it fire or blood that caused the darkening?  I like where it left you and that's sort of where I'm going with the conversation.    Let's get a consensus and figure out how it works.  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

That's really sweet Cridefea, that you consider OK and WW still to be 1 sword.    And they may be yet.   I just imagine that each sword has magic and purpose, but that is clouded by how important I hold the math.   

It's not about being sweet or sentimental, I don't care so much about Ice, but if we agree that VS acts on its own, absorbs and "remember", then we have to believe OK and WW have memory and notion of being one .

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah, that was the point of the topic, is it fire or blood that caused the darkening?  I like where it left you and that's sort of where I'm going with the conversation.    Let's get a consensus and figure out how it works.  

As I said in the first post I still believe it is only fire, but I find fascinating the idea of fire and blood, really evocative. So let's go that way....  

The blood is often described as black in asoiaf, so the darkening would be no strange. What kind of magic do we know about blood and fire?

Plus I still find it important, it's not just the apparence but also the sound... 

Quote

It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. It was half a song and half a scream, they say. 

 

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15 hours ago, Cridefea said:

It's not about being sweet or sentimental, I don't care so much about Ice, but if we agree that VS acts on its own, absorbs and "remember", then we have to believe OK and WW have memory and notion of being one .

As I said in the first post I still believe it is only fire, but I find fascinating the idea of fire and blood, really evocative. So let's go that way....  

The blood is often described as black in asoiaf, so the darkening would be no strange. What kind of magic do we know about blood and fire?

Plus I still find it important, it's not just the apparence but also the sound... 

 

Your end quote was a great catch!  The sound.   We never consider that.  

All I've got for blood and fire is blood magic, specifically making VS.   But don't take my word for that as I am certain there are other uses for the 2.  

That memory OK & WW may share is an awfully interesting idea, Cridefea.  

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19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hiemal, we are cheated when you abbreviate your responses.    I love this stuff.    And I love it even more when you explain it!   I'm so staying tuned for your Game of Souls!   Please let me know when it's ready!  

Not sure if anything I ever post is "ready" but

 

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20 hours ago, hiemal said:

Not sure if anything I ever post is "ready" but

 

Cant wait to get to it.   Thanks so much heimal.   Always fascinating stuff.   

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