Why do people hate Sansa?

[Traverys]

16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As I was reading your posts above, I just kept thinking this guy sounds like he wants more guns and explosions in Sansa's arc. Maybe a leather-clad urban fantasy heroine with a big sword or something. And here it sounds like you want ASOIAF as a Michael Bay film. It's not wrong, but this just doesn't seem like the right place for that.

Given the grey characters and the complicated moral dilemmas with no clear path, I have to imagine that you'll be struggling with the series as it comes to a close. To put these characters into clear-cut categories (among them, HEROES), it requires some serious mental retcons. You've demonstrated some of these mental retcons above with the dual-sidism as I think you put it which happens to be consistent with the author, with refusing to see Sansa's wit when the author explicitly said it was there, and others.

This forum is full of discussions about who is good/bad/whatever. Apparently a number of characters will be getting darker in TWOW which will muddy the field further. I think the end will be the same. We'll get acts of heroism to be sure, but I'm not really sure at all about heroes.

So true... I can hardly think of a heroic POV character in the series. Perhaps the closest we get is Brienne... And, like you've predicted, it seems like even she is crossing into very murky water with her renewed allegiance with UnCat.

22 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She's spoiled brat who, frankly, I haven't seen much, if any, improvement in her character arc.

I have to disagree in that I think the whole point of her arc is to show inner growth moreso than just about any other character. But, for the most part, these changes are reflected internally. Meaning you have to pay attention and read to see how her opinions and thoughts from the first book are challenged and changed as she progresses. In literary theory this is referred to the difference between characters that are primarily be-ers and characters that are primarily do-ers.

Example: Frodo was a do-er, though we see the toll the one ring and journey to Modor takes on him internally as the story progresses. Aragorn was a be-er, with his main story line being about him becoming King of Gondor (an identity) as a prerequisite before he can truly help save Middle-Earth. Ned was foremost a be-er, closely guarding his honor (internal) and letting it dictate his actions. Arya is a do-er, focusing on her goals of survival and revenge more than implications it has on her as a person, making shifting identities and personae easy for her. Which of these Sansa is becomes pretty obvious.

We see her at her worst in book one. Though, I have to wonder if you have a younger sibling... because at Sansa's age I would have thrown my little brother under the bus (just like my older brothers had done me) to "stay out of trouble" in a heartbeat. A single member of a family can reflect on everyone else for better or worse... even when those family members do not align themselves with said family member. Sansa as a soon-to-be-flowered lady was mortified that Arya was diminishing from the lady persona ("be-ing") she was cultivating for court.

As another strike against early Sansa, I think people forget to mention her thoughts about Jeyne Pool, which I find to be one of her more despicable low points. On the one hand, she's Jeyne's best friend, but, on the other, she has fairly callous thoughts towards her. For example, when Jeyne shares that she is in love with Dondarrion Sansa responds in her that Jeyne is a mere steward and therefore stupid to think she has a chance with a high lord. This contrasts with Catelyn feeling pity for Mya Stone when the latter is talking about the shared love between her and a highborn boy and thinking they will one day be married.

In sum, the first book is filled with these little snippets of a nasty little girl born of privilege who knows all the rules of social order and essentially likes them. And who wouldn't if you were of the highest of highborn? It's a safe place to be... until your father is dead, you're a valuable prisoner of war, and you realize you're betrothed to a boy who murdered your father and can now entertain himself by publicly humiliating and punishing you. Maybe even killing you once he gets bored of you or wins the war and no longer needs you as a hostage.

Chapter 67 of AGoT lays out the new reality that's being forced on her. She's forced out of bed while barely clothed, physically assaulted at least three times by Joffrey's command, and the only advice she is given is from the Hound:

“He wants you to smile and smell sweet and be his lady love,” the Hound rasped. “He wants to hear you recite all your pretty little words the way the septa taught you. He wants you to love him … and fear him.”

And there's more little lessons for her in this chapter. The primary two being she must guard her words and look pretty:

“I hate you,” she whispered. King Joffrey’s face hardened. “My mother tells me that it isn’t fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn.” (p. 718")

A woman fell to her knees to plead for the head of a man executed as a traitor. She had loved him, she said, and she wanted to see him decently buried. “If you loved a traitor, you must be a traitor too,” Joffrey said. Two gold cloaks dragged her off to the dungeons. (p. 720-721)

A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head.” Joffrey scowled. “You must never mock me like that. A true wife does not mock her lord. Ser Meryn, teach her.” (p. 724)

“You shouldn’t be crying all the time,” Joffrey told her. “You’re more pretty when you smile and laugh.” Sansa made herself smile, afraid that he would have Ser Meryn hit her again if she did not, but it was no good, the king still shook his head. “Wipe off the blood, you’re all messy.” (p. 725)

It's little surprising that her story and arc takes place internally throughout. Internal (be-ers) may not be interesting to everyone, but it doesn't warrant writing them off as incapable or obsolete. And there are certainly interesting "be-ers" in the story. Jaime Lannister has made the conversion into a be-er (restoring his honor) after he loses his sword hand (his primary method of "do-ing"), and he seems to be a popular character overall. Sansa demonstrates remarkability in that she survived the Red Keep. Conversely, Arya, our local survivor, most likely would not have survived being a prisoner in the Red Keep without being maimed (doesn't need legs or a tongue to have children), chained up, or outright killed. Arya lucked out in that she was receiving training from Syrio that greatly contributed to her escape from the Red Keep. What training did Sansa receive? How to smile, sing, and please.

The changes of her thoughts about Arya, Jon, bastards, lords, knights, and more are significant. It's a change of perspective and character that will surely influence her actions with increasing intensity as the plot continues and opportunity arise. Her transformation of identity into Alayne (again, "be-ing") is when these changes really start becoming more apparent and useful (action). Early book one Sansa would not have been successful at actively posing as a bastard, but future Sansa (while at first reluctant) learns to even enjoy being a bastard and the way it has liberated her from the burdens of being Lady Stark.

 

But I still stick to the previous conclusions in this discussion that Sansa is an accurate demonstration of young highborn girls and that this kind of detailed, complex attention given to a character like her is almost unprecedented in the realm of fantasy literature. In fantasy (and likely even sci-fi) fiction men and women with qualities traditionally associated with femininity are almost always relegated to the background as static caricature; for some reason the perception by authors or audiences are that these characters are uninteresting. Men and women with qualities traditionally associated with masculinity are the norm in fantasy fiction, meaning it is littered with Asha Greyjoys, Arya Starks and Brienne of Tarths. The reality is history is more accurately littered with characters like Sansa Stark.

It's disconcerting to think that this may lead some to believe that it automatically disqualifies a character from being interesting because they are the everyman (or, in this case, an everywoman). It certainly hasn't stopped a huge fandom developing for Hobbits (quintessential everymen), and Frodo, Merry, and Pip are masculine men (you could argue Sam as a feminine man). But the point is: Where are the examples of dynamic, complex and feminine everywomen? Right here with Sansa Stark. And the point of every(wo)men is that, though ordinary/unremarkable, they can still rise to the occasion through personal trial and tribulation.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Bran is mind raping Hodor and Arya kills people in cold blood for revenge or because she thinks she has a right to do so.

This is a pretty horrible accusation. "Mind-raping"? Come on. Bran's judgment may be off, but when he's "ridden" Hodor, it's been for good reason, like fighting off people trying to kill him, Jojen and Meera; when he rides along to explore the caves, he's on shakier ground, true, but rape? That's over the top.

Arya's predilection to kill really is concerning, and as a big Arya fan, I'm worried what's happening to her. Don't knock "revenge"; it's what makes Westeros and Essos go round. It's not as if they have decent courts or policing. (Trial by combat? Really?) Arya killed a number of people for expedience in her various escapes. If she' been a man, it would have been clever and heroic (think James Bond); as she's a little girl, people have branded her as psychopathic. I hope not. Under the tutelage of the House of Black & White, she had considerable misgivings about her first assignment, and needed to be told in some detail just why her target was being assassinated. (Insurance fraud.) That's to her credit.

But here's the contrast with Sansa's supporters: I like Arya, but can be concerned she's been going the wrong way and done things that are hard to forgive. Sansa folks insist everything their little dear has done is fine, understandable, truly brilliant, or easily forgiveable, at worst. Work in a little more gray, people!

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

But I still stick to the previous conclusions in this discusion that Sansa is an accurate demonstration of young highborn girls and that this kind of detailed, complex attention given to a character like her is almost unprecedented in the realm of fantasy literature. In fantasy (and likely even sci-fi) fiction men and women with qualities traditionally associated with femininity are almost always relegated to the background as static caricatures. Men and women with qualities traditionally associated with masculinity are the norm in fantasy fiction, meaning it is littered with Asha Greyjoys, Arya Starks and Brienne of Tarths. The reality is history is more accurately littered with characters like Sansa Stark.

I just found a video of GRRM commenting on exactly this. 30:27.

MAY BE SHOW SPOILERS! Video is largely about the GRRM's background and book themes but it uses show clips to demonstrate points.

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She appears slightly more thoughtful, possibly more realistic, but still morally bankrupt.

Being a 'Renowned-Dany-Hater-It-Is-Known-Confirmed,' I have little scope left in my repertoire for 'hatred' towards other fictional characters!  That said, I agree with your statement and 'hate' the insistence on moral relativism undertaken in bad faith as evidenced on this thread.  Not everything is relative -- some ways of behaving towards others are more admirable, if not more 'ethical', than others (yes, darling @YOVMO, it's quite possible to judge such things without being vacuous and unreflective!).

As a case in point, her ongoing propensity to lie to herself about her part in hurting other people, not to mention her slavish devotion to her psychopathic master of the moment, is not very admirable, 'in my oh-so-humble opinion'...  

Simply put, she is a cowardly rather than a heroic figure.

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 Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep.

AFFC - Alayne II

 

2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Selfishness and disloyalty to her family are the primary reasons I dislike her. Her behavior was absolutely atrocious in AGOT. The Mycah incident and Cersei incidents particularly stand out.

I also don't buy this idea that Sansa was some innocent teenage girl who was only being manipulated by others. No Sansa had a goal, a goal that she would sacrifice her own family members to achieve. Sansa's goal was to marry Joffrey and become the Queen. All of her actions were in service of that goal. She knew very well that her actions would hurt her family. She just didn't realize that she would also be hurt: Lady's execution and her imprisonment by the Lannisters.

These are her thoughts concerning what would happen to her father after she hears of his arrest by Cersei

Sansa knew that her father would be punished due to her actions but thought that it was a worthy sacrifice for her to be queen. She thought he would be dismissed from his position as hand and sent back to Winterfell or even exiled from Westeros. Instead he was executed. Whoops!

She even throws her sister under the bus while proclaiming her loyalty to Cersei and Joffrey.

Sansa is a person who cares about herself first and foremost. Everyone else including her own family members are nothing but an afterthought. When comparing her actions to her self sacrificing family members like Ned, Jon, Robb and Arya, she comes off especially bad. Ned, Jon, Robb and Arya all have their foolish moments but at least they're heroic fools who try to do the right thing. Sansa is something much worse: a selfish fool. 

 

I think if Sansa belonged to a different less heroic house for instance the Lannisters, the Greyjoys, or the Boltons, she would be much less hated. Instead she is of house Stark. She is expected to be a hero like the other members of the Stark family but she falls far short. 

We've had this convo before, haven't we?  

To quote @Pain killer Jane, Sansa is a 'Blue Falcon'!

[winter daughter]

48 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is a pretty horrible accusation. "Mind-raping"? Come on. Bran's judgment may be off, but when he's "ridden" Hodor, it's been for good reason, like fighting off people trying to kill him, Jojen and Meera; when he rides along to explore the caves, he's on shakier ground, true, but rape? That's over the top.

Bran knows Hodor doesn't like it but he does it anyway even when he doesn't have to.

What he is doing is wrong but if you think the word mind-raping is too harsh then I'll use mind-ridding from now on.

but I'm sure if it was Sansa instead of Bran you would be just fine with the word mind-raping.

48 minutes ago, zandru said:

If she' been a man, it would have been clever and heroic (think James Bond); as she's a little girl, people have branded her as psychopathic.

I don't think she is a psychopath. but some of her actions are supposed to be morally questionable.

And it applies to all the other characters of the series.

48 minutes ago, zandru said:

Sansa folks insist everything their little dear has done is fine, understandable, truly brilliant, or easily forgiveable, at worst. Work in a little more gray, people!

And Sansa haters insist everything she has done is wrong, not understandable, truly stupid, or hardly forgivable, at best. Work in a little more gray, people!

 

[Lollygag]

@manchester_babe

A big takeaway from this thread for me is that folks seem to be falling into two camps:

1. They see the story in terms of hero/good guy vs villain/bad guy (detractors see this as oversimplification),
2. and those who see the story as showing mirrors and complexities or grayness (detractors seeing this as moral relativism/amorality/immorality depending)

[zandru]

12 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

but I'm sure if it was Sansa instead of Bran you would be just fine with the word mind-raping.

That's nonsense.

12 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And Sansa haters insist everything she has done is wrong, not understandable, truly stupid, or hardly forgivable, at best.

Well, you're not talking about ME there. I know, and have often stated, that there are a lot of things about Sansa's actions that can be interpreted more than one way. I lean towards the negative, but can see there's a more favorable interpretation. The fact is, her "song" (man, I hate that meme) isn't yet done and things can change. What I (and apparently a few others) have seen so far makes it look as if she could be on the Cersei Lannister track, particularly considering the tutelage she's receiving (poor Cersei had to just observe her father at a distance and draw her own conclusions.)

I have yet to check out Lollygag's video of George RR, but will. I rarely read fantasy, other than LoTR and ASOIAF, because it seems self-indulgent and stupidly brutal.

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Isn't she ignoring the Maester's warnings about giving her cousin too much of the sedative in her last chapter?  And she's thinking that LF and their plans are more important than her cousin's well being?  That seemed to me, when I read it, that it was very close to the same old Sansa, who picks and chooses which parts of reality she admits.

I also don't think Sansa's personality can really be blamed on her parents.  Her mother is quite savvy about politics, there is no reason to believe that she would not have imparted this to her eldest daughter.  But it appears that Sansa was not really interested in those lessons.

Septa Mordane is awful and taught the girls to be living dolls which Sansa swallowed whole and Arya rejected whole both to their detriment. And this falls in Catelyn's territory as I assume Cat chose her and in Ned's territory being so disengaged as to not be interested in his daughters' (non)education. Catelyn was only educated by Hoster because he had no male heir for so long.

Those political lessons weren't given with much diligence as Robb wouldn't have been so dependent on her to navigate at the beginning if he'd had some training. Jon's political lessons were also lacking - he looks like swiss cheese now because of it.

ADWD Jon II

"Janos Slynt," said Jon. Gods save us. "A man does not rise to command of the gold cloaks without ability. Slynt was born a butcher's son. He was captain of the Iron Gate when Manly Stokeworth died, and Jon Arryn raised him up and put the defense of King's Landing into his hands. Lord Janos cannot be as great a fool as he seems." And I want him well away from Alliser Thorne.

 

As for the sweetsleep incident, you're correct but it's more complicated than that. In AFFC Alayne I, we see Sansa ask about Harrenhal and LF has to cycle through a number of answers before Sansa is satisfied. So LF manipulates by logic and answers he thinks the other person will accept. Here he says that Robert can't be seen as weak which is true as it would further destabilize an already unstable place. This works for Sansa because she knows appearances are important (courtesy is a lady's armor) and that even perfect heirs like Robb still need to prove their strength in the North to gain the full loyalty of their bannermen. Later Maester Colemon worries that Robert throwing fits on a steep downhill climb isn't safe either. A classic GRRM predicament with no good option so readers debate the hell out of it.

AFFC Alayne II

…

"Good. That is good." His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. "This descent . . . my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered."

"The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn." Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert's frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

…

Alayne understood all that well enough, but it meant that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. "Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk," she told the maester. "That will stop him from shaking on the journey down."

"He had a cup not three days past," Colemon objected.

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"

"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

...

Alayne's heart had been in her throat when she made her own ascent with Lady Lysa and Lord Petyr, and everyone agreed that the descent was even more harrowing, since you were looking down the whole time. Mya could tell of great lords and bold knights who had gone pale and wet their smallclothes on the mountain. And none of them had the shaking sickness either.

AGOT Bran VI – Robb was golden as far as succession: trueborn, male, smart, firstborn, yet in the North he still had to prove his strength to gain full loyalty of his bannermen and this was Sansa’s culture. Guessing LF made this argument deliberately about Robert needing to look strong.

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

 

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

33 minutes ago, zandru said:

What I (and apparently a few others) have seen so far makes it look as if she could be on the Cersei Lannister track, particularly considering the tutelage she's receiving (poor Cersei had to just observe her father at a distance and draw her own conclusions.)

She absolutely is learning from Cersei, but you can learn from someone in several ways. I'm guessing that Sansa will take on some her negative traits just because that's just what happens with a mentor/parent/guardian and child relationship. It's which negative traits that matter.

And further still, some of Cersei's negative traits need not be bad in themselves. Taking on some of Cersei's paranoia so long as she doesn't go overboard is maybe not a bad idea for a girl raised in the Mayberry of Westeros (what you see is what you get).

And one can learn to not acquire a mentor's bad traits as is the case when Sansa decided to be loved by people over feared against Cersei's advise.

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

This combined with the knights beating her, her dissolution with Joff, etc make me suspect the girl in love with love may come to see it as a poison to some degree. We'll see.

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I just found a video of GRRM commenting on exactly this.

Thanks! This was really great. Not just the interview, but the clips from the series (there there be spoilers!!) and this-world shots. I took note of his remark "If everybody thinks your character is a villain or everybody thinks your character is a hero, you're writing cardboard." And they had a screenshot of this forum.

[winter daughter]

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

Such a powerful moment.

And the video was very interesting. thank you.

[zandru]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

She absolutely is learning from Cersei,

Sorry - what I meant was that Sansa was being taught by Littlefinger. Meanwhile, other aspects of her character seem to be drifting to look like Cersei.

Spoiler

In the teevie series, the Sansa character actually does seem to hold Cersei as a good example.

Plus, I'd consider the North to be the Minnesota of Westeros: cold winters, nice people, community spirit. Mayberry is in the old Confederacy, and as nice as Andy Griffith was, there remains a meanness in the society down there that's always waiting to break out. Well, these days, it's actually running rampant in the US...

It sure seems as if George RR is almost as down on "romantic love" as he is on war.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

 

I have to disagree in that I think the whole point of her arc is to show inner growth moreso than just about any other character. But, for the most part, these changes are reflected internally. Meaning you have to pay attention and read to see how her opinions and thoughts from the first book are challenged and changed as she progresses. In literary theory this is referred to the difference between characters that are primarily be-ers and characters that are primarily do-ers.

That is adorable, it really is, but in my opinion you are making a bizarre distinction. There are actors and passengers, identity and "be-ing" is a separate issue. It's my opinion that it's the actions that matter and the way one effects the world around them that defines them. Inner perspective of a character helps us understand motive and reasoning behind action, but

I hate resorting to lotr references here but ok... I couldn't disagree with you here any more:

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Example: Frodo was a do-er, though we see the toll the one ring and journey to Modor takes on him internally as the story progresses. Aragorn was a be-er, with his main story line being about him becoming King of Gondor (an identity) as a prerequisite before he can truly help save Middle-Earth. Ned was foremost a be-er, closely guarding his honor (internal) and letting it dictate his actions. Arya is a do-er, focusing on her goals of survival and revenge more than implications it has on her as a person, making shifting identities and personae easy for her. Which of these Sansa is becomes pretty obvious.

Ya so this arbitrary distinction seems pointless to me... hobbits are passengers along for the ride, rarely do they ever instigate action. Aragon is the opposite, he'll throw caution to the wind and face the dead themselves to accomplish what he believes to be right. 

Ned is a do-we not a thinker... just because we see his internal dialogue doesn't take away from the fact that he acts... Be it fighting Robert's rebellion, standing up for murdered children, hunting down the tower of joy, attempting to track down Arryn's killer. You can question his morals or his intelegence or his competence, but not that he takes action. I'd say the same for Arya...

Sansa is a passive passenger, she's along for the ride, rarely if ever instigating anything at all and only sometimes responding outside of the most predictable easy road. I'm not saying it's her fault, but I do judge her for it.

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We see her at her worst in book one. Though, I have to wonder if you have a younger sibling...

Yes, and I might beat on him or fight with him, but I'm the only one allowed to. I would never side against him. Loyalty isn't something you gain with age...

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because at Sansa's age I would have thrown my little brother under the bus (just like my older brothers had done me) to "stay out of trouble" in a heartbeat. A single member of a family can reflect on everyone else for better or worse... even when those family members do not align themselves with said family member. Sansa as a soon-to-be-flowered lady was mortified that Arya was diminishing from the lady persona ("be-ing") she was cultivating for court.

She was selfish and lying and betraying her family, you can justify that however you want but you won't convince me it wasn't morally reprehensible.

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As another strike against early Sansa, I think people forget to mention her thoughts about Jeyne Pool, which I find to be one of her more despicable low points. On the one hand, she's Jeyne's best friend, but, on the other, she has fairly callous thoughts towards her. For example, when Jeyne shares that she is in love with Dondarrion Sansa responds in her that Jeyne is a mere steward and therefore stupid to think she has a chance with a high lord.

I completely agree, especially after Jeyne's dad is killed and Sansa basically dgaf.

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This contrasts with Catelyn feeling pity for Mya Stone when the latter is talking about the shared love between her and a highborn boy and thinking they will one day be married.

Cat's treatment of Jon is a whole other can of worms... Mya provides a foil.

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In sum, the first book is filled with these little snippets of a nasty little girl born of privilege who knows all the rules of social order and essentially likes them. And who wouldn't if you were of the highest of highborn? It's a safe place to be... until your father is dead, you're a valuable prisoner of war, and you realize you're betrothed to a boy who murdered your father and can now entertain himself by publicly humiliating and punishing you. Maybe even killing you once he gets bored of you or wins the war and no longer needs you as a hostage.

Excuses are fine, I didn't say that there isn't an explanation, just that I don't like her because of her lack of initiative and poor moral character.

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Chapter 67 of AGoT lays out the new reality that's being forced on her. She's forced out of bed while barely clothed, physically assaulted at least three times by Joffrey's command, and the only advice she is given is from the Hound:

“He wants you to smile and smell sweet and be his lady love,” the Hound rasped. “He wants to hear you recite all your pretty little words the way the septa taught you. He wants you to love him … and fear him.”

And there's more little lessons for her in this chapter. The primary two being she must guard her words and look pretty:

“I hate you,” she whispered. King Joffrey’s face hardened. “My mother tells me that it isn’t fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn.” (p. 718")

A woman fell to her knees to plead for the head of a man executed as a traitor. She had loved him, she said, and she wanted to see him decently buried. “If you loved a traitor, you must be a traitor too,” Joffrey said. Two gold cloaks dragged her off to the dungeons. (p. 720-721)

A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head.” Joffrey scowled. “You must never mock me like that. A true wife does not mock her lord. Ser Meryn, teach her.” (p. 724)

“You shouldn’t be crying all the time,” Joffrey told her. “You’re more pretty when you smile and laugh.” Sansa made herself smile, afraid that he would have Ser Meryn hit her again if she did not, but it was no good, the king still shook his head. “Wipe off the blood, you’re all messy.” (p. 725)

It's little surprising that her story and arc takes place internally throughout. Internal (be-ers) may not be interesting to everyone, but it doesn't warrant writing them off as incapable or obsolete. And there are certainly interesting "be-ers" in the story. Jaime Lannister has made the conversion into a be-er (restoring his honor) after he loses his sword hand (his primary method of "do-ing"), and he seems to be a popular character overall.

Again you you seem to miss the fundamental distinction, Jaime acts, he makes decisions and follows through... say what you will about him and judge how you want, but even without his hand he takes action. 

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Sansa demonstrates remarkability in that she survived the Red Keep. Conversely, Arya, our local survivor, most likely would not have survived being a prisoner in the Red Keep without being maimed (doesn't need legs or a tongue to have children), chained up, or outright killed. Arya lucked out in that she was receiving training from Syrio that greatly contributed to her escape from the Red Keep. What training did Sansa receive? How to smile, sing, and please.

What are you talking about? 

Lollys Stokeworth survives, that is such a low bar, and frankly not even relevant when talking about liking characters, I love lots of dead characters...

Also, you have no basis for your hypothetical maiming/murder of Arya... and she only ended up with Syrio because Ned ACTED giving her a teacher after she ACTED out (and Sansa got her sparring partner killed).

It's amazing to me that every Stark child seems to have been taught the lessons of loyalty and family except Sansa... or she didn't learn well... the lone wolf dies, the pack survives...

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The changes of her thoughts about Arya, Jon, bastards, lords, knights, and more are significant. It's a change of perspective and character that will surely influence her actions with increasing intensity as the plot continues and opportunity arise. Her transformation of identity into Alayne (again, "be-ing") is when these changes really start becoming more apparent and useful (action). Early book one Sansa would not have been successful at actively posing as a bastard, but future Sansa (while at first reluctant) learns to even enjoy being a bastard and the way it has liberated her from the burdens of being Lady Stark.

She might get better, it's possible, just haven't seen any reason to think so yet.

Also, she is not The Lady Stark by any stretch... even if you don't think the Lannister wedding valid, her brothers and Jeyne Stark come before her.

 

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But I still stick to the previous conclusions in this discussion that Sansa is an accurate demonstration of young highborn girls and that this kind of detailed, complex attention given to a character like her is almost unprecedented in the realm of fantasy literature. In fantasy (and likely even sci-fi) fiction men and women with qualities traditionally associated with femininity are almost always relegated to the background as static caricature; for some reason the perception by authors or audiences are that these characters are uninteresting. Men and women with qualities traditionally associated with masculinity are the norm in fantasy fiction, meaning it is littered with Asha Greyjoys, Arya Starks and Brienne of Tarths. The reality is history is more accurately littered with characters like Sansa Stark.

Doesn't mean I have to like her... realism is most certainly not what I'm reading game of thrones for...

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It's disconcerting to think that this may lead some to believe that it automatically disqualifies a character from being interesting because they are the everyman (or, in this case, an everywoman). It certainly hasn't stopped a huge fandom developing for Hobbits (quintessential everymen), and Frodo, Merry, and Pip are masculine men (you could argue Sam as a feminine man). But the point is: Where are the examples of dynamic, complex and feminine everywomen? Right here with Sansa Stark. And the point of every(wo)men is that, though ordinary/unremarkable, they can still rise to the occasion through personal trial and tribulation.

I am so happy there are women in the world not like Sansa Stark. Also, she isn't everywoman! She's a daughter of an ancient line of rulers stretching back thousands of years, what are you even getting at here? Is it that being easy to dislike character but originally appearing on the "good" side is unusual? Because then I agree... but it still doesn't change my opinion of her.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, zandru said:

"If everybody thinks your character is a villain or everybody thinks your character is a hero, you're writing cardboard."

Sansa has a character flaw, or two, or three... -- that doesn't make her a 'villain'.

Furthermore, GRRM's characters, as written, are far less 'grey' than he espouses in his cagey interviews...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

39 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Septa Mordane is awful and taught the girls to be living dolls which Sansa swallowed whole and Arya rejected whole both to their detriment. And this falls in Catelyn's territory as I assume Cat chose her and in Ned's territory being so disengaged as to not be interested in his daughters' (non)education. Catelyn was only educated by Hoster because he had no male heir for so long.

Those political lessons weren't given with much diligence as Robb wouldn't have been so dependent on her to navigate at the beginning if he'd had some training. Jon's political lessons were also lacking - he looks like swiss cheese now because of it.

ADWD Jon II

 

"Janos Slynt," said Jon. Gods save us. "A man does not rise to command of the gold cloaks without ability. Slynt was born a butcher's son. He was captain of the Iron Gate when Manly Stokeworth died, and Jon Arryn raised him up and put the defense of King's Landing into his hands. Lord Janos cannot be as great a fool as he seems." And I want him well away from Alliser Thorne.

 

As for the sweetsleep incident, you're correct but it's more complicated than that. In AFFC Alayne I, we see Sansa ask about Harrenhal and LF has to cycle through a number of answers before Sansa is satisfied. So LF manipulates by logic and answers he thinks the other person will accept. Here he says that Robert can't be seen as weak which is true as it would further destabilize an already unstable place. This works for Sansa because she knows appearances are important (courtesy is a lady's armor) and that even perfect heirs like Robb still need to prove their strength in the North to gain the full loyalty of their bannermen. Later Maester Colemon worries that Robert throwing fits on a steep downhill climb isn't safe either. A classic GRRM predicament with no good option so readers debate the hell out of it.

AFFC Alayne II

 

…

 

"Good. That is good." His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. "This descent . . . my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered."

 

"The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn." Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert's frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

 

…

 

Alayne understood all that well enough, but it meant that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. "Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk," she told the maester. "That will stop him from shaking on the journey down."

"He had a cup not three days past," Colemon objected.

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."

 

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."

 

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

 

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"

 

"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

...

Alayne's heart had been in her throat when she made her own ascent with Lady Lysa and Lord Petyr, and everyone agreed that the descent was even more harrowing, since you were looking down the whole time. Mya could tell of great lords and bold knights who had gone pale and wet their smallclothes on the mountain. And none of them had the shaking sickness either.

 

 

 

AGOT Bran VI – Robb was golden as far as succession: trueborn, male, smart, firstborn, yet in the North he still had to prove his strength to gain full loyalty of his bannermen and this was Sansa’s culture. Guessing LF made this argument deliberately about Robert needing to look strong.

 

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

 

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

 

 

I agree that it is slightly more complicated than I first made it appear, but only slightly...

If Sansa and/or LF planned on Sweetrobin surviving, they wouldn't be planning on marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir. They would form a pact between Sansa and Sweetrobin. The only reason not to do this is with the intention of Sweetrobin dying.

You could argue that Sansa hasn't figured this out yet, but that's really just falling back on her incompetence as an excuse again. She ought to know better by now, if she has been growing at all.

 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Traverys said:

I have to disagree in that I think the whole point of her arc is to show inner growth moreso than just about any other character. But, for the most part, these changes are reflected internally. Meaning you have to pay attention and read to see how her opinions and thoughts from the first book are challenged and changed as she progresses. In literary theory this is referred to the difference between characters that are primarily be-ers and characters that are primarily do-ers.

I have to disagree...

One of GRRM's major concerns is deconstructing the distinction, especially in terms of moral culpability, between the so-called 'do-ers' and 'be-ers'; or perhaps we should say, 'do-ers' and 'see-ers'...

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX

"Your father," said Prince Oberyn, "may not live forever."

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. "It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening."

"Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true." The Dornishman went to the window to gaze out into the night. "It is being said that you have no witnesses for us."

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One of the captives dropped to his knees. "Mercy, sire. I killed no one, I only stood at the door to watch for guards."

Robb considered that a moment. "Did you know what Lord Rickard intended? Did you see the knives drawn? Did you hear the shouts, the screams, the cries for mercy?"

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . . "

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die..."

ASOS - Catelyn III

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Being a 'Renowned-Dany-Hater-It-Is-Known-Confirmed,' I have little scope left in my repertoire for 'hatred' towards other fictional characters!  That said, I agree with your statement and 'hate' the insistence on moral relativism undertaken in bad faith as evidenced on this thread.  Not everything is relative -- some ways of behaving towards others are more admirable, if not more 'ethical', than others (yes, darling @YOVMO, it's quite possible to judge such things without being vacuous and unreflective!).

As a case in point, her ongoing propensity to lie to herself about her part in hurting other people, not to mention her slavish devotion to her psychopathic master of the moment, is not very admirable, 'in my oh-so-humble opinion'...  

Simply put, she is a cowardly rather than a heroic figure.

 

We've had this convo before, haven't we?  

To quote @Pain killer Jane, Sansa is a 'Blue Falcon'!

Team Sansa doesn't seem to recognize that their pitch on her behalf usually consists of excuses for her behavior and some internal growth I have yet to see materialize. 

As you pointed out at least the rest of her family does SOMETHING, even if it is foolish. And with the exception of Cat (who I admittedly also dislike) are pretty classically heroic.

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I have to disagree...

One of GRRM's major concerns is deconstructing the distinction, especially in terms of moral culpability, between the so-called 'do-ers' and 'be-ers'; or perhaps we should say, 'do-ers' and 'see-ers'...

 

Yes, I agree that the distinction is between those who act and those who do not, and either way they are responsible for their behavior.

[ravenous reader]

49 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

the distinction is between those who act and those who do not, and either way they are responsible for their behavior.

Yes, that's why GRRM had Sansa faced with having witnessed an atrocity (the Trident incident), in response to which she chose to 'sit on the fence,' feign ignorance, and 'not take sides' -- which, of course, is always a way of taking sides, or acting (paradoxically, without acting) in the end...  In effect, she chose the Lannisters over her own family, to save her own skin.  As a 'reward' for this non-committal, self-serving, and indeed disloyal behaviour, GRRM had her wolf murdered by her father.  It's clear what GRRM thinks of assuming that 'neutral' stance of 'survival'.  He is one of the most morally judgmental writers I've read -- so I just smile when people go on about how 'grey' and 'morally relative' he is!

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I agree that it is slightly more complicated than I first made it appear, but only slightly...

If Sansa and/or LF planned on Sweetrobin surviving, they wouldn't be planning on marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir. They would form a pact between Sansa and Sweetrobin. The only reason not to do this is with the intention of Sweetrobin dying.

 

If Sweetrobin makes it to puberty. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

If Sweetrobin makes it to puberty. 

My point is that isn't the plan