Why do people hate Sansa?

[Mladen]

Oh, boy... Some things never change... Presidents come and go, nuclear weapons get tested, but you can always count on a good, old Sansa thread  

As someone who has spent rather extensive time around here, I can honestly say, yes, Sansa is being hated for all sorts of reasons. Are those reasons justified? Well, just like with love, we also don't choose whom we dislike. We just do. And it is pointless arguing about that.

But, the line has to be drawn when the criticism turns to her femininity. And that criticism has been loud over the course of the years. Sansa has been called stupid and idiotic for many reasons, and ironically the argument "Look how she only cares about dresses and songs" has been thrown around. Just like someone, years ago, tried to use Catelyn's observation of Brienne's physical ugliness as a sign of shallowness. Sansa is feminine, beautiful young woman. And according to Mr Martin, rather intelligent. 

I wouldn't say she is passive. She going to Cersei, as unfortunate as it was, wasn't passive. Her decision to act upon the note left on her pillow and meet with Dontos wasn't passive, just as wasn't her decision to put her faith into him. Sansa was powerless. Yes, she is not Arya. She has no dragons or a cool white wolf next to her. She also lacks Tyrion's humor or Bran's deity status. But she survived. Yes, it was by pretending to be a meek, stupid girl, by saying what people wanted to hear (a lesson Arya also learned in Harrenhall). She was kept alive which brings us to another issue.

Why is she still alive? If she is so pointless, then we should get rid of her? Or at least Mr Martin should. And yet, she lingers. She is alive, thriving, being introduced to several key elements to the story. She has not overstayed her welcome and she has been growing since page 1. And that is why, when one day we have full story of Sansa Stark, we would be able to fully understand what this character is all about. And believe me, it is not about dresses and pretty songs.

So, it was fun... For old time sake... Have a great day, kids  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Hate is a strong word for a young teenager. I actually don't mind Sansa. She was raised to be a proper Lady, or Queen, that would thrive in a peace time Westeros. 

Alayne on the other hand scares me. I'm not sure I trust her with the Warden of the East Robert Arryn. She needs to get back to being Sansa and save Robert from Baelish and Harry or all hope could be lost for her. If she participates in murdering Robert in any way then I will hate her. 

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

Sansa’s chapters have always been among my favourites, and hers is one of the arcs I’m most looking forward to in the Winds of Winter. I wouldn’t say that I like her, but I find her far too entertaining to dislike her. 

At the end of the day, as selfish and damaging as her actions have been, she is a child who was raised in a very indulgent environment and who really found herself in the deep end. She handled things poorly, but it’s forgiveable. I think it’s too soon in her arc to say which side of the “spectrum of morality” she leans towards, but she certainly isn’t irredeemable. She’s a far better person than Jaime or Tyrion, who get far less hate. The same goes for Daenerys really, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some sexism behind this. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Read the Alayne chapter in TWOW, Sansa’s awesome! 

In that, plotting with your dad's murderer to kill your child cousin, marry his heir, and usurp his ancestral seat, kind of way.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In that, plotting with your dad's murderer to kill your child cousin, marry his heir, and usurp his ancestral seat, kind of way.

Sometime ago I asked you for some textual proof for this theory. but you haven't provide anything yet. why?

When you are poisoning someone slowly to usurp his seat you sure think about it from time to time or talk about the plot with your partner. right?

And you sure don't think about how you can keep him safe and make him brave.

Spoiler

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

or hope he survive long enough to wed.

Spoiler

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

BTW, she doesn't know LF had a part in her father's downfall.

[Roswell]

22 hours ago, Whitering said:

My problem with her is that she is a realistic teenager...

Yes, I don't like kids lol

I don't actually dislike her more than say Rickon, because uggh, kids.

I can like Arya because she is a somewhat unrealistic or unusual from my standpoint child.

Sansa first informed on her Father to Cersei, but not having learned anything from that also informed on herself to Dontos scuttling the perhaps one good plan to get out of danger. But that sounds about right for a teenager, they are all stupid, I was stupid, maybe still am, that's why I don't like her, too realistic.

Because Note, I am a big lover of the Alayne character heh

Sansa is not realistic to me.  Most teenager will have more common sense than to blurt out her father's exit strategy to their #1 enemy, Cersei.  We know she did it hoping Cersei will force her father to stay, so she can be with her prince charming.  That's even more disturbing to me.  Her level of selfishness is too much for a modern day teenager. 

Regarding your point about Arya.  She's not even close to being realistic.  But let's be objective.  Sansa is selfish, self- absorbed, but she's not evil.  Arya is pure evil.  So if I had to take one in because god is punishing me it will be Sansa over Arya, though I dislike both of them.  Sansa can be managed and manipulated.  Arya is crazy and therefore she is unpredictable and can become erratic.

[Whitering]

Arya hasn't done anything to crazy and nothing against a strong moral code that lies at her center and puts her squarely at odds with the FM. Like I said, she is an unrealistic character.

I mean, I haven't been a highscooler for a long time, maybe kids have changed, I still don't want to spend time with anyone Sansa's age, I expect they are stupid mostly because I and every other person were when I was that age. I am not judging her for it, but I don't like her either.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Sometime ago I asked you for some textual proof for this theory. but you haven't provide anything yet. why?

When you are poisoning someone slowly to usurp his seat you sure think about it from time to time or talk about the plot with your partner. right?

And you sure don't think about how you can keep him safe and make him brave.

  Hide contents

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

or hope he survive long enough to wed.

  Hide contents

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

BTW, she doesn't know LF had a part in her father's downfall.

So I guess the "she's to incompetent to blame" defense works if you are willing to forgive her obviously being blind... but it's also another reason not to like her.

 

Even Sweetrobin, the little idiot, knows Harry "the heir" is a threat...

 

Quote

 

"Your lordship should not believe such nonsense," Alayne said. "I'm sure Ser Harrold loves you well." And if the gods are good, he will love me too. Her tummy gave a little flutter.

"He doesn't," Lord Robert insisted. "He wants my father's castle, that's all, so he pretends." The boy clutched the blanket to his pimply chest. "I don't want you to marry him, Alayne. I am the Lord of the Eyrie, and I forbid it." He sounded as if he were about to cry. "You should marry me instead. We could sleep in the same bed every night, and you could read me stories." 

No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world. Queen Cersei had collected the head of a dozen dwarfs, Petyr claimed, but none were Tyrion's. "Sweetrobin, you must not say such things. You are the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, and you must wed a highborn lady and father a son to sit in the High Hall of House Arryn after you are gone."

...

 

You are such a little fool. "Your lords bannermen will care. Some call my father upjumped and ambitious. If you were to take me to wife, they would say that he made you do it, that it was no will of yours. The Lords Declarant might take arms against him once again, and he and I should both be put to death."

"I wouldn't let them hurt you!" Lord Robert said. "If they try I will make them all fly." His hand began to tremble. 

Alayne stroked his fingers. "There, my Sweetrobin, be still now." When the shaking passed, she said, "You must have a proper wife, a trueborn maid of noble birth."

...

 

"No. I want to marry you, Alayne."

Once your lady mother intended that very thing, but I was trueborn then, and noble. "My lord is kind to say so." Alayne smoothed his hair. Lady Lysa had never let the servants touch it, and after she had died Roberthad suffered terrible shaking fits whenever anyone came near him with a blade, so it had been allowed to grow until it tumbled over his round shoulders and halfway down his flabby white chest. He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him. "Any child of ours would be baseborn. Only a trueborn child of House Arryn can displace Ser Harrold as your heir. My father will find a proper wife for you, some highborn girl much prettier than me. You'll hunt and hawk together, and she'll give you her favor to wear in tournaments. Before long, you will have forgotten me entirely." 

"I won't!"

 

 

 

So to recap, Sansa is either lying and leading Robert to an early grave, or she's an even bigger little idiot than him.. which is maybe worse.

 

Sansa cares more about what Harry thinks of her than that he wants to usurp Robert...

 

Clearly Sansa is a highborn lady (princess) and the match Robert's mother had intended for him.

 

Sansa's lies about her identity could be construed as necessary to shield the Vale from war with the Lannisters... but, it doesn't make her planning to marry Harry any less incriminating... 

 

IMO: Robert's Winged Knights are an imitation of the King's Guard... this serves as a threefold setup, a way for LF to point and say he did everything he could to protect Robert, and as a prelude to declaring independence from the Iron Throne, making Robert (or his heir) royalty. Finally, it serves to gather the lords of the vale to consolidate power.

 

But however you cut it, Sansa is lying to her cousin and actively hoping to marry his heir. That's pretty clear.

 

And I haven't even gotten to the fact it seems that they are actively poisoning Robert.

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I guess the "she's to incompetent to blame" defense works if you are willing to forgive her obviously being blind... but it's also another reason not to like her.

 

Even Sweetrobin, the little idiot, knows Harry "the heir" is a threat...

 

 

 

So to recap, Sansa is either lying and leading Robert to an early grave, or she's an even bigger little idiot than him.. which is maybe worse.

 

Sansa cares more about what Harry thinks of her than that he wants to usurp Robert...

 

Clearly Sansa is a highborn lady (princess) and the match Robert's mother had intended for him.

 

Sansa's lies about her identity could be construed as necessary to shield the Vale from war with the Lannisters... but, it doesn't make her planning to marry Harry any less incriminating... 

 

IMO: Robert's Winged Knights are an imitation of the King's Guard... this serves as a threefold setup, a way for LF to point and say he did everything he could to protect Robert, and as a prelude to declaring independence from the Iron Throne, making Robert (or his heir) royalty. Finally, it serves to gather the lords of the vale to consolidate power.

 

But however you cut it, Sansa is lying to her cousin and actively hoping to marry his heir. That's pretty clear.

 

And I haven't even gotten to the fact it seems that they are actively poisoning Robert.

Why would she want to marry Harry? I read the Alayne chapter for TWOW, and he’s a jerk. Just not on Joffrey’s level.

[Pikachu101]

53 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why would she want to marry Harry? I read the Alayne chapter for TWOW, and he’s a jerk.

He can get her Winterfell back 

2 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Arya is pure evil.

Arya is a traumatised nine year old girl she's not "evil" 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

25 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

He can get her Winterfell back 

What? Where did you get this idea?

Quote

It had fallen out just as Petyr said it would, the day the ravens flew. "They're young, eager, hungry for adventure and renown. Lysa would not let them go to war. This is the next best thing. A chance to serve their lord and prove their prowess. They will come. Even Harry the Heir." He had smoothed her hair and kissed her forehead. "What a clever daughter you are."

The whole plan is to get Harry...

 

 

Quote

 

"And is Ser Harrold with them?"

Horrible Ser Harrold. " He is." 

Lord Belmore laughed. "I never thought Royce would let him come. Is he blind, or merely stupid?"

 

This is apperantly fairly obvious...

So either Sansa is in on the plot, or she's being played (and still hasn't really grown/learned from her mistakes). Neither option is a particularly flattering look, but I prefer my Sansa as selfish instead of totally oblivious.

[Lion of the West]

For myself I hope that Sansa will get together with Harry and we will finally get some screentime for House Arryn. I don't think that I will change my favorite House as House Arryn has already kind of got sticked with being underdeveloped, yet even so I would think that more Arryn would be nice.

And for the record; of course Harry the Heir is a jerk. He's a young man, a noble and a celebrity with his head, I will assume, filled with his own importance as Robert Arryn's heir. I don't know what people reasonably expected from him but he's not a Joffrey-level of jerk and I don't think that his low-level jerkness hides some greater jerkness behind it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why would she want to marry Harry? I read the Alayne chapter for TWOW, and he’s a jerk. Just not on Joffrey’s level.

Because he's Harry THE HEIR (to The Vale), and she and little finger are operating under the "assumption" Robert Arryn will never live to have children.

Given that Littlefinger thinks the rest of the Starks are dead, he will assume Sansa has one of, if not the, best claims to Winterfell and Rob's Crown. 

Meaning Sansa and Harry could presumably be a union that creates a new King in the North, Riverlands, and Vale.

But more importantly it would consolidate almost half the seven kingdoms under Littlefinger's influence.

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I guess the "she's to incompetent to blame" defense works if you are willing to forgive her obviously being blind... but it's also another reason not to like her.

Most of the our characters are flawed and sometimes oblivious to what is happening around them. just because she is not yet alarmed about LF's true intentions doesn't mean she is unforgivable. by your logic almost all of our characters are unforgivable and unlikable.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Even Sweetrobin, the little idiot, knows Harry "the heir" is a threat...

 

Lysa probably warned him about his heir. As Sansa remarked Lysa had filled SR with fear.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So to recap, Sansa is either lying and leading Robert to an early grave, or she's an even bigger little idiot than him.. which is maybe worse.

Lying about what?

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa cares more about what Harry thinks of her than that he wants to usurp Robert...

SR is a sick child and everyone knows it.

and Harry is his heir so it is completely normal if he is preparing himself for the position in case SR dies.

That doesn't mean he is trying to usurp him.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa's lies about her identity could be construed as necessary to shield the Vale from war with the Lannisters... but, it doesn't make her planning to marry Harry any less incriminating... 

This is what LF told Sansa when he was talking about her marriage to Harry.

When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie.

So even if he has a plan to murder SR he hasn't shared it with Sansa.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

IMO: Robert's Winged Knights are an imitation of the King's Guard... this serves as a threefold setup, a way for LF to point and say he did everything he could to protect Robert, and as a prelude to declaring independence from the Iron Throne, making Robert (or his heir) royalty. Finally, it serves to gather the lords of the vale to consolidate power.

 

Brotherhood of winged knights was Sansa's idea not LF's. and she suggested it to keep SR safe and make him brave.

Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

Of course LF had his own reasons for agreeing to this plan. 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But however you cut it, Sansa is lying to her cousin and actively hoping to marry his heir. That's pretty clear.

Yeah she is lying about her identity. she is wanted for regicide so I think it's normal that she is keeping her identity a secret especially from an eight year old child.

She thinks if SR dies(which is very likely because of his health condition) Harry is her only chance to take back her home.

Returning to Winterfell has been Sansa's dream since her father's execution.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And I haven't even gotten to the fact it seems that they are actively poisoning Robert.

And you still haven't provided any textual proof to prove that Sansa is actively poisoning him.

As I said before if she is actively poisoning him because she wants to usurp his ancestral seat she should think about it sometimes and talk about the plot with her partner.

And you also haven't explained why she wants to keep him safe or why she hopes he lives long if she is slowly killing him.

4 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Arya is pure evil.

Arya is a deeply traumitized child but not evil. she is 12 and has been through hell in the past 3-4 years.

evils are characters like Ramsay, Gregor and other monsters like them not Arya.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

48 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Most of the our characters are flawed and sometimes oblivious to what is happening around them. just because she is not yet alarmed about LF's true intentions doesn't mean she is unforgivable. by your logic almost all of our characters are unforgivable and unlikable.

No.

there are lots of characters who have both good and bad traits... what I'm saying is that the bad for Sansa far outweigh the good, if there is good. That's my problem, people throw out things like her being politically savvy or that she's growing and learning from her mistakes, when in fact I don't see any evidence that she is. She's still selfish, being manipulated, and hasn't shown me any examples of self sacrifice.

Quote

Lysa probably warned him about his heir. As Sansa remarked Lysa had filled SR with fear.

Lying about what?

Who she is? Why she doesn't marry him? How his mother died?

You know, big things...

Quote

SR is a sick child and everyone knows it.

and Harry is his heir so it is completely normal if he is preparing himself for the position in case SR dies.

That doesn't mean he is trying to usurp him.

Ok, that's fair, I don't think I should have accused Harry of plotting, he's just the heir apparent...

Quote

This is what LF told Sansa when he was talking about her marriage to Harry.

When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie.

So even if he has a plan to murder SR he hasn't shared it with Sansa.

Read between the lines, seems pretty clear what he's saying... 

Quote

Brotherhood of winged knights was Sansa's idea not LF's. and she suggested it to keep SR safe and make him brave.

Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

Of course LF had his own reasons for agreeing to this plan. 

And the reason it was a good idea had nothing to do with making Robert happy... it was to draw out the lords of the Vale, Harry in particular.

Quote

Yeah she is lying about her identity. she is wanted for regicide so I think it's normal that she is keeping her identity a secret especially from an eight year old child.

She's lying about a lot...

Quote

She thinks if SR dies(which is very likely) Harry is her only chance to take back her home.

Returning to Winterfell has been Sansa's dream since her father's execution.

Any textual support for this idea about Harry?

Dreaming of home is no surprise, especially when it's her own damn fault... what you are sighting is a feeling of regret.

Sansa got her own wolf killed, then her own father killed while actively preventing her return to Winterfell.

Quote

And you still haven't provided any textual proof to prove that Sansa is actively poisoning him.

I mean she's drugging him against the maester's orders... but I'll pull some quotes.

Quote

As I said before if she is actively poisoning him because she wants to usurp his ancestral seat she should think about it sometimes and talk about the plot with her partner.

That's why she and LF discuss Harry at all...

Quote

And you also haven't explained why she wants to keep him safe or why she hopes he lives long if she is slowly killing him.

Either she's to stupid to see what is going on and what LF has spelled out... or she feels no ill will toward Robert and just thinks it's somehow necessary... but the quote about Robert's one day wife loving his hair is literally about herself, she doesn't see anything in him but admires the hair (predictably superficial). In case you haven't picked up on this yet, the gods are not good, and this doesn't show Sansa cares for him, or is planning for his survival (of course this inherently contradicts your logic about Harry is the Heir and it's just expected Robert will die), it shows that she thinks it would be justice if Robert survived and wed... if the gods are good... lol

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q="if+the+gods+are+good"&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On sweetsleep @winter daughter

 

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking." 

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."

 

...

 

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." She let her have a whiff, then sent her up the ladders to find a red glass bottle. "This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide. The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed, and smelled nothing.

 

...

 

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleepwill prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ." 

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?" 

"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

"I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast . . . is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent?"

...

"You had best take that up with the LordProtector." She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Coleman cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

 

you will notice that after repeated warnings they are still drugging Robert the boy, and that Lord Arryn is a title, one that would pass to Harry the Heir should anything happen to Robert.

 

Finally, Sansa and LF are explicitly not doing this for Robert's benefit...

 

Is it spelled out plainly, no, but connect the dots...

 

[Nevets]

22 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Who she is? Why she doesn't marry him? How his mother died?

You know, big things...

When you are in hiding, you don't tell anyone who you really are.  Especially 8 year-old boys whose intelligence and mental stability are in question.  The same goes for telling him LF killed his mother after she tried to murder Sana.  Although I expect that Sansa willl reveal this fact when the time is right.

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Read between the lines, seems pretty clear what he's saying...

He's saying that Robert's health makes it unlikely he will survive to adulthood.  Even Jaime flatly states that "Robert won't live long enough to breed", and it's not because he expects Robert to be murdered.  The kid has been sick all his life,and absolutely nobody expects him to make it to adulthood..

27 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean she's drugging him against the maester's orders... but I'll pull some quotes.

The only incident I remember is the trip down the mountain.  And that was understandable, given that the alternative was to tie him to the back of a mule,, which would have left him a laughingstock.

I seriously doubt LF is currently trying to murder Robert.  He needs to Robert to remain alive, at least until an heir that LF can control comes along, as he is the source of LF's power.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if LF is using drugs to keep Robert in a weakened state, although I doubt that even if that is the case that Sansa would be able to pick up on it.

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Any textual support for this idea about Harry?

Dreaming of home is no surprise, especially when it's her own damn fault... what you are sighting is a feeling of regret.

Sansa got her own wolf killed, then her own father killed while actively preventing her return to Winterfell.

I am not at all convinced that Sansa has any real interest in marrying Harry, or anyone else.  I think she is going along with LF's suggestions because she sees no current alternative, and to buy time, but I see no real interest in a marriage.

As for getting her wolf and her father killed, she had no reason to think that her actions would result in those consequences.  I will admit that her judgement at that point was poor, but that was also two years and four books ago. Time to let go.

  

[winter daughter]

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

what I'm saying is that the bad for Sansa far outweigh the good, if there is good. That's my problem, people throw out things like her being politically savvy or that she's growing and learning from her mistakes, when in fact I don't see any evidence that she is. She's still selfish, being manipulated, and hasn't shown me any examples of self sacrifice.

Sansa is not politically savvy. but she is definitely learning to be a player.

"...She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around... and she is not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. she is not even a wild child like Arya. she can't fight with swords, axes. she can't raise armies... but she has her wits the same as Littlefinger has."

GRRM

And it seems like you still think saving Dantos and the common woman from Joffrey do not count as good actions.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Read between the lines, seems pretty clear what he's saying... 

he is saying to Sansa his death is inevitable becuase of his illness.

yes he is most likely intending to kill him when the time comes but he doesn't say this to Sansa.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Any textual support for this idea about Harry?

yeah.

"When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

And she doesn't even like Eyrie, she has said time and time again how cold, isolated, silent and lifeless it is. so usurping Robin and living in the Eyrie is not her dream, returning to Winterfell is.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Dreaming of home is no surprise, especially when it's her own damn fault... what you are sighting is a feeling of regret.

Sansa got her own wolf killed, then her own father killed while actively preventing her return to Winterfell.

Of course she is regretful. she tells us herself in her first ACOK chapter.

And Lady's death was not only Sansa's fault. Cersei demanded it, Robert ordered it and Ned carried it out although he knew Lady was innocent.

Again in her father's downfall she played a part but she was not the only one responsible for it. Ned himself, LF, Varys, Cersei all of them played a part but in the end it was Joffrey who ordered the execution (although he was advised to spare him) and it was Payne who carried it out.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean she's drugging him against the maester's orders... but I'll pull some quotes.

Yeah she knows the drug is not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment for his seizures.

Is her decision questionable? yes. but does it prove she has plotted with LF to murder him? No.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That's why she and LF discuss Harry at all...

They've never talked about murdering SR. she has never though about killing or usurping him.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Either she's to stupid to see what is going on and what LF has spelled out... or she feels no ill will toward Robert and just thinks it's somehow necessary.

No. it's not a good explanation. when you are killing someone slowly you don't try to keep him safe at the same time. you don't care if he becomes brave or remains a coward, because you are murdering him.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

but the quote about Robert's one day wife loving his hair is literally about herself, she doesn't see anything in him but admires the hair (predictably superficial).

What other good qualities SR has?

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In case you haven't picked up on this yet, the gods are not good, and this doesn't show Sansa cares for him, or is planning for his survival (of course this inherently contradicts your logic about Harry is the Heir and it's just expected Robert will die), it shows that she thinks it would be justice if Robert survived and wed... if the gods are good... lol

it just shows that she has no plan to kill him.

12 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

"You had best take that up with the LordProtector." She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Coleman cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

Yeah this part from her last AFFC chapter is controversial but we have a TWOW sample chapter in which she has organized a big tourney so the boy could have his own guards to keep him safe.

[ravenous reader]

Quote

 "...A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face." He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. "And that's more than little birds can do, isn't it?"

ACOK -- Sansa II

 

[LynnS]

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"The Lannisters are not." Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.

By the time Ned returned to his chambers, he felt weary and heartsick, yet there was no question of his going back to sleep, not now. When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die, Cersei Lannister had told him in the godswood. He found himself wondering if he had done the right thing by refusing Lord Renly's offer. He had no taste for these intrigues, and there was no honor in threatening children, and yet … if Cersei elected to fight rather than flee, he might well have need of Renly's hundred swords, and more besides.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said, "but that was not one of them."

"Oh, but it was, my lord," Cersei insisted. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

Sansa is learning how to play the game of thrones, how to survive.