Why do people hate Sansa?

[Winter's Cold]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sansa is learning how to play the game of thrones, how to survive.

Yup surviving by sacrifing her child cousin. What an admirable character.

[winter daughter]

25 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Yup surviving by sacrifing her child cousin. What an admirable character.

She has not sacrificed Robin yet, has she?

you are judging her based on something she has not done or thought about it yet.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Sansa is not politically savvy. but she is definitely learning to be a player.

"...She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around... and she is not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. she is not even a wild child like Arya. she can't fight with swords, axes. she can't raise armies... but she has her wits the same as Littlefinger has."

GRRM

And it seems like you still think saving Dantos and the common woman from Joffrey do not count as good actions.

Ok so I've said this may be where Sanaa's arc is headed, but I don't really see any evidence she's learning yet... especially if you don't think she see's LF's intention to see Robert die. It seems more like she's still being played by the guy who plotted her dad's execution.

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

he is saying to Sansa his death is inevitable becuase of his illness.

Like Bran was sure to die after his fall? This is no way to treat family...

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

yes he is most likely intending to kill him when the time comes but he doesn't say this to Sansa.

But he does... you quoted it, he says he'll give her Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. He's only giving her the Eyrie of Robert dies...

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

yeah.

"When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

And she doesn't even like Eyrie, she has said time and time again how cold, isolated, silent and lifeless it is. so usurping Robin and living in the Eyrie is not her dream, returning to Winterfell is.

I don't think she's thought this through then... how does marrying Harry not end her up in the Eyrie just like marrying Robert?

Great quote though... right on point for the discussion!

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Of course she is regretful. she tells us herself in her first ACOK chapter.

And Lady's death was not only Sansa's fault. Cersei demanded it, Robert ordered it and Ned carried it out although he knew Lady was innocent.

I mean if she doesn't lie, Lady wouldn't have been killed... you can dress up the facts how you want but it is significant her wolf is killed by her father when she betrays her own family.

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Again in her father's downfall she played a part but she was not the only one responsible for it. Ned himself, LF, Varys, Cersei all of them played a part but in the end it was Joffrey who ordered the execution (although he was advised to spare him) and it was Payne who carried it out.

 

Quote

 

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . ."

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please." 

 

 

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Yeah she knows the drug is not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment for his seizures.

I'm not convinced that the seizures aren't symptoms of withdrawal that have gotten worse since his mom died because he was breast feeding and she was taking the drugs... but I accept that this is the explanation used to give him the sweets... I'm just not convinced that Sansa and LF don't know exactly what they are doing.

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Is her decision questionable? yes. but does it prove she has plotted with LF to murder him? No.

You are right here, I don't have any proof. But I would contend there are only really two options, Sansa is in on the plot or she's simply incredibly ignorant and reckless.

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

They've never talked about murdering SR. she has never though about killing or usurping him.

No. it's not a good explanation. when you are killing someone slowly you don't try to keep him safe at the same time. you don't care if he becomes brave or remains a coward, because you are murdering him.

What? Killing him slowly has to do with using him first, this means keeping him docile and tracktable... They need to get Sansa married to Harry and secure Vale lord support before finishing him off.

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

What other good qualities SR has?

He's a justifiably terrified orphan... Sansa should be able to indenting with that. He's many years he junior but he does genuinely seem to care for Sansa. And caring for your family is a good quality in my book!

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

it just shows that she has no plan to kill him.

Just watch while he dies then... sigh

14 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Yeah this part from her last AFFC chapter is controversial but we have a TWOW sample chapter in which she has organized a big tourney so the boy could have his own guards to keep him safe.

As I explained above that wasn't the reason for the knights and the tourney, it was the excuse. Harry was the reason.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sansa is learning how to play the game of thrones, how to survive.

Lowest possible bar...

Playing the game at a Hodor level...

[Jon_Stargaryen]

1. She's a spoiled brat (much like her mother) who takes her station in life as an all access pass to shit on those around her of lesser birth, or who are just different (Her conversations with Arya, her thoughts about Jeyne, her mannerisms towards Jon, her disregard for Micah's life)

2. She's always screwing herself over.

• She got her own direwolf killed by lying to appease Joffrey and the queen. Then blamed Arya because of her lie.
• She got Ned killed by warning Cersei that they would be leaving the city, alerting her to some funny business afoot.
• She continues to pretend to be LFs daughter, knowing that Yohn Royce is close enough to reach, and is a friend of her father.

In summation, Sansa is the epitome of a spoiled rich girl.

[winter daughter]

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It seems more like she's still being played by the guy who plotted her dad's execution.

Everyone has been played by this guy, Jon Arryn, Lysa, Ned, Cat, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Jamie, Vale lords. he is a mastermind and playing and manipulating people(even smart people) is his speciality so yeah she is still being played by him. she has been with him for less than a year. did you expect her to outmaneuver the human villain of the story in a couple of months? it would've been stupid and unbelievable. she needs time to learn politics. but I think she will start playing her own game soon. we see the hints in her sample chapter.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . ."

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please." 

Actually I said she had a part in her father's downfall but she was not the only one responsible.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But he does... you quoted it, he says he'll give her Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. He's only giving her the Eyrie of Robert dies...

He doesn't say he has a plan to kill Robin. he says he is ill and his death is inevitable.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean if she doesn't lie, Lady wouldn't have been killed... you can dress up the facts how you want but it is significant her wolf is killed by her father when she betrays her own family.

So Robert, Cersei and Ned were not responsible?

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What? Killing him slowly has to do with using him first, this means keeping him docile and tracktable... They need to get Sansa married to Harry and secure Vale lord support before finishing him off.

As you said it yourself there is no proof that she has plotted with LF to kill Robin.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He's a justifiably terrified orphan... Sansa should be able to indenting with that. He's many years he junior but he does genuinely seem to care for Sansa. And caring for your family is a good quality in my book!

He keeps nuzzling her breasts, wetting her mattress, giving her sloppy kisses, ordering her around, throwing things but has she ever mistreated him? no. she has always been patient with him.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Just watch while he dies then... sigh

And holding a tourney so the best young knights in the vale could become his guards.

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As I explained above that wasn't the reason for the knights and the tourney, it was the excuse. Harry was the reason.

Yes it was.

Spoilers removed.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:20 PM, winter daughter said:

But she has changed a lot since her father's execution and has become a better person. I think we should not judge her only based on her attitude in the first book and ignore her growth and good qualities.

I just want you to realize that the changes to her personality since book one are mostly cosmetic.

She changed her attitude because she no longer has the luxury of being a spoiled brat. She's a prisoner of her own making, in a place where it is not good to be a prisoner. No one is obligated to put up with her shit like they were when her father was the Hand of the King and something like a brother to side king.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Everyone has been played by this guy, Ned, Cat, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Jamie, Vale lords. he is a mastermind and playing and manipulating people(even smart people) is his speciality so yeah she is still getting played by the him. she has been with him for less than a year. did you expect her to outmaneuver the human villain of the story in a couple of months? it would've been stupid and unbelievable. she needs time to learn politics. but I think she will start playing her own game soon. we see the hints in her sample chapter.

Ya but I don't like any of those characters because of it... the topic is why we don't like Sansa, of course there are lots of excuses for her behavior and lots of other characters share blame in the results... but that doesn't make Sansa any more likeable.

As I've said she may change that going forward if she starts taking an active roll in her own life instead of towing whatever line she's handed... or maybe even grow a conscious, but I'm not holding my breath.

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Actually I said she had a part in her father's downfall just that she was not the only one responsible.

Other people's responsibility and/or lack thereof doesn't change her own part in the events. I'm not saying everything is all her fault, but she played a crucial role in both the death of Lady and Ned and you don't get a pass because you didn't swing the sword.

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He doesn't say he has a plan to kill Robin. he says he is ill and his death is inevitable.

Like people assumed Bran would die... treating sickly children as dead already isn't admirable nor does it excuse planning to benefit from their death... but honestly I don't think LF is planning for Robert to die naturally, Sansa should be able to piece this together if she's learned anything.

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

So Robert, Cersei and Ned were not responsible?

Irrelevant to Sanaa's own responsibility for her actions... 

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

As you said it yourself there is no proof that she has plotted with LF to kill Robin.

But there is evidence... there's no proof of R+L=J or of Gravity for that matter... but that's not to say it's a closed case. I enjoy the discussion, but I have trouble reconciling Sansa's behavior with any sort of positive morals, Family Duty Honor is out, personal sacrifice I don't see, and the way she thinks (or doesn't think) of Jayne Poole and the Mycah is pretty horrendous. Nor do I see any real examples of her taking the initiative. 

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He keeps nuzzling her breasts, wetting her mattress, giving her sloppy kisses, ordering her around, throwing things but has she ever mistreated him? no. she has always been patient with him.

She's his closest living relative, and frankly her responsibility... teach him.

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And holding a tourney so the best young knights in the vale could become his guards.

Yes it was.

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

The tourney and the Brotherhood was Sansa's idea not LF's. and she suggested it because she cares about him.

But that's not why LF agrees or why they held the tourney... I still think you are missing the subtext here:

 

Quote

 

It had fallen out just as Petyr said it would, the day the ravens flew. "They're young, eager, hungry for adventure and renown. Lysa would not let them go to war. This is the next best thing. A chance to serve their lord and prove their prowess. They will come. Even Harry the Heir." He had smoothed her hair and kissed her forehead. "What a clever daughter you are."

It was clever. The tourney, the prizes, the wingedknights, it had all been her own notion. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen. He will want to be there to greet Ser Harrold. Where could he have gone?

 

It's a clever excuse...

Also, just an aside, not sue she hates the vale and is dreaming of Winterfell...

Quote

Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father...since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

On 10/23/2017 at 6:12 PM, Pikachu101 said:

People can't get over GoT and accept that kids are stupid, which is funny because the same people who hate Sansa make a million excuses for the blunders of adult men! Sansa hate is stupid, mainly because the hatred is stemmed from this illogical belief that 1) people can't learn from the mistakes they made as kids, and 2) Sansa should have grabbed a sword and killed everyone. I kid you not, there was this one fan who insisted 9 year old Arya would have killed Joffrey and his KG.

Also Sansa's feminine and that's a big no no

I call BS:

1. She clearly didn't learn from her mistakes. She lied and said she didn't remember how it wen town with Joffrey and Nymeria; Lady got killed. She told Cersei about Ned's plan to get them out of the city; all of the Stark household got killed/(and Jeyne was put to work ). She told Dontos of the Tyrell's plans; she was forced to marry Tyrion. Most of her wounds are self inflicted.
2. I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally believed that she handled her situation the wrong way. I'm not saying it's her fault; she's a sheep because she was raised to be a sheep. The faith of the seven preaches about women being subservient (though it also preaches about obeying your father, but whatever). The problem is, she asserts agency all the time. She just does it poorly. And to the Arya point, I don't believe she would have actually killed them, but she certainly would have tried if given half the chance, given her track record in the book

As an aside, no one is dumping on femininity. I've never heard a negative word about Margaery or Olenna Tyrell, and their feminine as shit. The main complaint is incompetence.

[Jon_Stargaryen]

On 10/24/2017 at 5:58 AM, Pikachu101 said:

Has a lot to do with the amount of hate female characters get in comparison to their male counterparts, fans of these female characters are constantly on the defensive because of the blind hatred targeted towards them. 

I love Ned but he was a terrible father to both girls, but that's mainly because daughters aren't the father's responsibility they're raised by their mothers and Septas and this shows in Sansa's behaviour. 

Exactly! Sansa's one of the only realistic characters in the books, how can anyone expect an 11 year old girl to fight Joffrey, the KG, and escape Kingslanding all on her own? Deep down people know if they were in her shoes they'd behave the exact same way and that annoys them. 

Only Sansa fans, and it's not BLIND hatred.

Sansa embodies everything that is wrong with the elite of yesteryear: she gives no consideration to those she deems of a lower status (until she becomes someone of a quasi-lower status), she is naive to the point of being dangerous, and she has absolutely no marketable skills.

To the point of Ned, Sansa was raised as a southern lady who would marry a southern man. Ned is from the North. What since would it make for a northern man, with little to no understanding of the faith of the seven, to raise a child who would need to know about the south. 

Ned was the best father to be shown among the nobility thus far. If you can make an argument against it, I would love to hear it.

Lastly, the problem with that theory is, Arya escapes the RK which is crawling with Lannister men, Bran and Rickon escape WF by hiding in the crypts. How unrealistic are either of those situations. Sansa didn't escape because she was obsessed with trying to maintain her precious Joffrey.

There is no BLIND hatred for Sansa, but understandable contempt, based on information provided. Her misery seems to be mostly self-inflicted.

That being said, she is a product of her upbringing, and her upbringing made her soft. Keep in mind that Arya had the same upbringing, but seemed to buck it at every turn.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I just want you to realize that the changes to her personality since book one are mostly cosmetic.

She changed her attitude because she no longer has the luxury of being a spoiled brat. She's a prisoner of her own making, in a place where it is not good to be a prisoner. No one is obligated to put up with her shit like they were when her father was the Hand of the King and something like a brother to side king.

in her first ACOK chapter she saved Dantos, she risked getting punished to save a stranger life.

compare this to trident incident with Mycha. IMO it's a big change and not a cosmetic one.

And yes hardships change us and it applies to Sansa too.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Other people's responsibility and/or lack thereof doesn't change her own part in the events. I'm not saying everything is all her fault, but she played a crucial role in both the death of Lady and Ned and you don't get a pass because you didn't swing the sword.

You said she got her wolf and her father killed like she was the only one responsible.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

but honestly I don't think LF is planning for Robert to die naturally, Sansa should be able to piece this together if she's learned anything.

hopefully she will.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She's his closest living relative, and frankly her responsibility... teach him.

I think she is trying. but it's not an easy task. especially for a 13 year old orphan who has been through so much herself.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But that's not why LF agrees or why they held the tourney... I still think you are missing the subtext here:

We read her thoughts so we know why she suggested it, to keep him safe and make him strong.

Of course LF has his own reasons for agreeing to this suggestion.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It's a clever excuse...

Also, just an aside, not sue she hates the vale and is dreaming of Winterfell...

It's a clever excuse for LF not for Sansa.

And I said she hates the Eyrie not the Vale.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

in her first ACOK chapter she saved Dantos, she risked getting punished to save a stranger life.

This is maybe the biggest risk she's taken for someone else... we have reached such a low bar that the single stand out moment of selflessness for Sansa is lying to Joff about bad luck because she feels pity for the drunk fool.

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

compare this to trident incident with Mycha. IMO it's a big change and not a cosmetic one.

What is remarkable is how bad she was in regards to Mycah, continuing to lie after he was cut down by the hound.

 

Quote

 

"He burned down a holdfast and murdered a lot of people, women and children too."

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them." 

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

Did she really think of Dontos differently? What remorse has she shown that he was killed? Has she held LF to account?

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And yes hardships change us and it applies to Sansa too.

Only if you can show she actually changed... I don't think she's really shown any progress... especially if you think she's completely ignorant of LF plotting!

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

You clearly said she got her wolf and her father killed like she was the only one responsible.

 No, just that she has responsibility... in both cases her actions directly resulted in the death of Lady/Ned... she doesn't get a pass on her actions because other people share responsibility. Thus the quote from Rob clearly illustrating the point.

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

hopefully she will.

Hopefully the Boltons will decide they haven't been very nice and become loyal bannerman again...

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I think she is trying. but it's not an easy task at all. especially for a 13 year old orphan who has been through so much herself.

Never said it was easy... but she should care about his wellbeing.

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Sansa tells us why she suggested it. to keep him safe and mike him strong.

so unless you think she is aware that we are in her head and is trying to fool us there is no reason why we shouldn't believe her on this matter.

No, I think you are missing the point.

She explicitly says she and little finger aren't conscerbed with the boy Roberts wellbeing.

She clearly understands it was clever, not because it made Robert feel safe, but because it draws out the Vale lords and Harry the Heir.

Littlefinger has promised her the Eyrie.

Either she is oblivious to the point it strains credulity, or she's in on the plot.

I don't know which is worse.

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Of course LF has his own reasons for agreeing to this suggestion.

It's a clever excuse for LF not for Sansa.

But she seems to understand the reason! Littlefinger calls her clever explicitly because even Harry will come... she even ends the paragraph you quoted thinking about Harry... she understands why it was clever, and it had nothing to do with Robert feeling better, that was the excuse.

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And I said she hates the Eyrie not the Vale.

But we were talking about dreaming of Winterfell and wanting to return there, re:Harry, so I thought it was relevant.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is maybe the biggest risk she's taken for someone else... we have reached such a low bar that the single stand out moment of selflessness for Sansa is lying to Joff about bad luck because she feels pity for the drunk fool.

Lying to Joff and manipulating him was the only way to save Dantos.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What is remarkable is how bad she was in regards to Mycah, continuing to lie after he was cut down by the hound.

For me what is remarkable is how she has changed since then. saving Dantos is a sign of development for me.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Did she really think of Dontos differently? What remorse has she shown that he was killed?

She feels guilty and LF knows it and use it against her.

"Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 she doesn't get a pass on her actions because other people share responsibility. Thus the quote from Rob clearly illustrating the point.

I never said she get a pass.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hopefully the Boltons will decide they haven't been very nice and become loyal bannerman again...

apples and oranges.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But she seems to understand the reason! Littlefinger calls her clever explicitly because even Harry will come... she even ends the paragraph you quoted thinking about Harry... she understands why it was clever, and it had nothing to do with Robert feeling better, that was the excuse.

She suggested it because of Robert.

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Lying to Joff and manipulating him was the only way to save Dantos.

For me what is remarkable is how she has changed since then. saving Dantos is a sign of development for me.

Ok, I guess I just don't see it... maybe we're applauding that she feels any remorse at all?

Again it seems to me that the bar has been set soooooo low... and we should have higher standards.

Quote

She feels guilty and LF knows it and use it against her.

"Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

And if at the the start of the next book she steps up and throws LF under the bus I'll be the first to cheer. But she could already run to Royce whenever she wants, so I'm not counting on it.

Quote

Deleted content removed.

TWoW spoilers removed.

Either:

A. Sansa knows this, and it was clever, just evil for helping LF and undermining Robert by plotting to marry his heir instead of him and letting him die (and/or helping to murder him).

or what you seem to believe:

B. She really thought it was all just a nice feel good group to make Robert feel better, and believes that this is clever for some reason, probably because she's oblivious and blind but innocent of plotting against Robert. Clearly the less evil option, just means she hasn't learned anything.

Given her track record of siding against family I know what I expect.

We'll hopefully find out one day, but I don't see myself liking her more for either choice. At this point I struggle to find anything redeeming about her. 

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You keep quoting only the middle of the section and leaving out the important part framing it...

And you keep ignoring this part because it proves you are wrong about the reason she suggested the tourney.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Given her track record of siding against family I know what I expect.

It's clear that you've already made up your mind about this.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We'll hopefully find out one day, but I don't see myself liking her more for either choice. At this point I struggle to find anything redeeming about her. 

I didn't start this conversation because I wanted to make you love her, to each his own. hate her as much as you like.

I just wanted to know if you had some textual proof for your theory(Sansa has plotted with LF to kill SR) and you answered me. you don't have any proof.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And you keep ignoring this part because it proves you are wrong about the reason she suggested the tourney.

It's clear that you've already made up your mind about this.

I didn't start this conversation because I wanted to make you love her, to each his own. hate her as much as you like.

I just wanted to know if you had some textual proof for your theory(Sansa has plotted with LF to kill SR) and you answered me. you don't have any proof.

I enjoyed the chat, and it's ok if nobody changed their mind... 

But without meaning any insult I really do think the context there matters, and the quote you used is the "clever excuse". It's clearly not the real reason for the tourney, implying Sansa knows why it's clever, because it brings out Harry. 

As far as the poison goes, even you admitted the quote from the end of feast is a pretty bad look if you're defending Sansa. She explicitly groups herself with LF as not caring about Robert's health compaired to Coleman.

As you said however, of course there is no proof, then it would be no fun! 

Cheers

[SecretWeapon]

On 28/11/2017 at 2:22 PM, The Transporter said:

Sansa is not realistic to me.  Most teenager will have more common sense than to blurt out her father's exit strategy to their #1 enemy, Cersei. 

Most parents would have the common sense of telling both of their daughters "HEY, THE LION GUYS WANT TO KILL US" too though. She didn't even know Cersei was their enemy until much later

[winter daughter]

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I enjoyed the chat, and it's ok if nobody changed their mind... 

14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cheers

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/28/2017 at 0:22 PM, The Transporter said:

Sansa is not realistic to me.  Most teenager will have more common sense than to blurt out her father's exit strategy to their #1 enemy, Cersei.  We know she did it hoping Cersei will force her father to stay, so she can be with her prince charming.  That's even more disturbing to me.  Her level of selfishness is too much for a modern day teenager. 

 

She was 11.

[Stubby]

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