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Why do people hate Sansa?


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12 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

Most parents would have the common sense of telling both of their daughters "HEY, THE LION GUYS WANT TO KILL US" too though. She didn't even know Cersei was their enemy until much later

Cersei murdered her direwolf. Jaime Lannister killed Jory and injured her father. Ned told her that it wasn't safe and he was sending them away for their own safety.       She ignored all of this anyway.

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She was a young, sheltered girl. She was not told of the reason Ned was taking them from King's Landing. She thought it was some falling out type disagreement between Ned and Robert. She had no idea. She stood to lose a lot despite the warning signs. She still had her eye on all of the intangibles of being Queen, even to Joffrey. Then, they killed her father and all of their men. She changed after that. She finally became a Stark but then LF got a hold of her. She is being groomed by him for intentions that I think she is not fully understanding because Baelish is a liar and master manipulator. Hating her past Book 1 seems too grudging.

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26 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She was a young, sheltered girl. She was not told of the reason Ned was taking them from King's Landing. She thought it was some falling out type disagreement between Ned and Robert. She had no idea. She stood to lose a lot despite the warning signs. She still had her eye on all of the intangibles of being Queen, even to Joffrey. Then, they killed her father and all of their men. She changed after that. She finally became a Stark but then LF got a hold of her. She is being groomed by him for intentions that I think she is not fully understanding because Baelish is a liar and master manipulator. Hating her past Book 1 seems too grudging.

She probably hates herself too, for that matter.

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4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She was a young, sheltered girl. She was not told of the reason Ned was taking them from King's Landing.

Cersei demanded Lady's execution... Jaime crippled her father and killed Stark men she's known her whole life... how much more evidence does it take?

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She thought it was some falling out type disagreement between Ned and Robert. She had no idea.

It was... that's when Ned resigned over the assasination attempt on Dany. But after he was CRIPPLED BY JAIME LANNISTER! She had to have an idea!!!!

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She stood to lose a lot despite the warning signs.

Ok so she did know... or should have known...

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She still had her eye on all of the intangibles of being Queen, even to Joffrey.

The things that come with being queen are as tangible as it gets... 

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Then, they killed her father and all of their men. She changed after that.

Not really... I still don't see how people think she's improved at all. I mean it's hard to point to any positive action she takes. She feels pity few times... but never really risks herself for anyone's benefit, or makes any sacrifices for others.

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She finally became a Stark but then LF got a hold of her.

I have no idea what you mean by became a Stark... she is by far the least "Stark" of all her siblings in looks, temperament, morals, and having a pet dire wolf.

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She is being groomed by him for intentions that I think she is not fully understanding because Baelish is a liar and master manipulator. Hating her past Book 1 seems too grudging.

I think she is well aware of what she's doing... and she's a liar too

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24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cersei demanded Lady's execution... Jaime crippled her father and killed Stark men she's known her whole life... how much more evidence does it take?

It looked very much like Ned approved Cersei's decision when he personally killed Lady as she wished.

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It was... that's when Ned resigned over the assasination attempt on Dany. But after he was CRIPPLED BY JAIME LANNISTER! She had to have an idea!!!!

The Lannisters got the ultimate mark of approval from the Starks when they gave Sansa in marriage. Crazy Jaime aside, was that approval ever clearly withdrawn? Stuff like 'it's dangerous here', and 'Joffrey is not what we thought' is simply not enough.

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok so she did know... or should have known...

The things that come with being queen are as tangible as it gets... 

Not really... I still don't see how people think she's improved at all. I mean it's hard to point to any positive action she takes. She feels pity few times... but never really risks herself for anyone's benefit, or makes any sacrifices for others.

Ok, now you're on dangerous ground. She knows what she risks for Dontos:

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Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this.

ACOK - SANSA I

But she carries on anyway. She is correct in her assessment of Joff; this is what he does a few chapters later :

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Boros slammed a fist into Sansa's belly, driving the air out of her.... As he laid the flat of the blade across her thighs, she thought her legs might break with the force of the blow... She soon lost count of the blows.

... "Beat her bloody," Joffrey said...

ACOK - SANSA IV

This is not trivial, this is severe physical abuse.

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have no idea what you mean by became a Stark... she is by far the least "Stark" of all her siblings in looks, temperament, morals, and having a pet dire wolf.

She has the same looks as Rob, Bran and Rickon. All of whom have different personalities.

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think she is well aware of what she's doing... and she's a liar too

Arya is a liar. Ned is a liar. Almost everyone is a liar.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cersei demanded Lady's execution... Jaime crippled her father and killed Stark men she's known her whole life... how much more evidence does it take?

Ned went on to kill Lady and in Sansa eyes, Jaime LANNISTER didn't attack Ned, it was THE KINGSLAYER. Even then, if we take your point and say she's more stupid than the average pre-teen girl, that Ned having a PROPER talk with her like he did with Arya was even more needed.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It looked very much like Ned approved Cersei's decision when he personally killed Lady as she wished.

Reread that again, no it doesn't ever appear that way. Holy shit

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The Lannisters got the ultimate mark of approval from the Starks when they gave Sansa in marriage. Crazy Jaime aside, was that approval ever clearly withdrawn? Stuff like 'it's dangerous here', and 'Joffrey is not what we thought' is simply not enough.

Are you kidding?

Direwolf killed... Mycah killed... Jorey Cassel killed... how much does it take?

Sansa was betrothed to a Baratheon, a betrothal her dad wanted to break.

And quoting examples of warnings is a good start... I'm not sure how much you want, the bar is already soooo lowww. 

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Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them." 
"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

 

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Ok, now you're on dangerous ground. She knows what she risks for Dontos:

But she carries on anyway. She is correct in her assessment of Joff; this is what he does a few chapters later :

This is not trivial, this is severe physical abuse.

What is dangerous? My opinion?

I didn't say she never suffered, but it's not admirable to be a victim, what's admirable is overcoming the abuse... I don't have to like a character because bad things happen to them, especially when she ended up in Lannister hands because she put herself there by betraying her own father.

but it's true this might be the most "good" thing she's done so far... it's certainly one of maybe two examples of things in about ten pages of posts to be used as an example....

but it let's be clear, Sansa blurts something out and the Hound bails her out... her excuse is to "avoid punishment". I'm not saying that's bad, what I'm saying is in my opinion it doesn't redeem her. 

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She has the same looks as Rob, Bran and Rickon. All of whom have different personalities.

Different, but each of them exhibit the Stark traits from time to time (or often). Are there examples for Sansa? It's possible I just missed them

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Arya is a liar. Ned is a liar. Almost everyone is a liar.

That was the point I was making... 

1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

Ned went on to kill Lady and in Sansa eyes, Jaime LANNISTER didn't attack Ned, it was THE KINGSLAYER. Even then, if we take your point and say she's more stupid than the average pre-teen girl, that Ned having a PROPER talk with her like he did with Arya was even more needed.

Sansa was there for Cersei demanding Lady's life even though nobody even suggested she was involved... Ned pleaded on her behalf.

Hopefully she knows the difference between his total and his name? He's Cerceis twin though, really I mean come on...

There is no reason to believe Ned didn't have lots of talks with Sansa... every conversation they've ever had isn't shown on the page and frankly there was no need. Every indication is that Ned was a good dad, who cared about his children, it's not like the Arya conversation, I assume you are alluding to, where he found her with a sword. That's different, remarkable, reminiscent of Lyanna, why he hires Syrio, and moves the plot forward. Arya is also significantly younger, and Sansa is probably expected to have a better understanding of the fact that if someone's soldiers stick your dad with the pointy end then they aren't your friend... also family loyalty is nice.

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20 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa was there for Cersei demanding Lady's life even though nobody even suggested she was involved... Ned pleaded on her behalf.

Hopefully she knows the difference between his total and his name? He's Cerceis twin though, really I mean come on...

There is no reason to believe Ned didn't have lots of talks with Sansa... every conversation they've ever had isn't shown on the page and frankly there was no need. Every indication is that Ned was a good dad, who cared about his children, it's not like the Arya conversation, I assume you are alluding to, where he found her with a sword. That's different, remarkable, reminiscent of Lyanna, why he hires Syrio, and moves the plot forward. Arya is also significantly younger, and Sansa is probably expected to have a better understanding of the fact that if someone's soldiers stick your dad with the pointy end then they aren't your friend... also family loyalty is nice.

Not really. Bob told him to get Sansa a dog and that was it

She didn't. It took her until ASOS to finally get a grip on reality

There isn't REASON to believe Ned talked with her since we didnt see it. Innocent until guilty

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9 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

Not really. Bob told him to get Sansa a dog and that was it

No 

9 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

She didn't. It took her until ASOS to finally get a grip on reality

I'm not sure she's gotten any better but at least you can see what I'm talking about.

9 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

There isn't REASON to believe Ned talked with her since we didnt see it. Innocent until guilty

Hahahahaha what?

Everything we know about Ned says he cares about his family and that he took an active role in raising his children.

This isn't a court of law, but even so, I don't think you fully understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty... 

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It looked very much like Ned approved Cersei's decision when he personally killed Lady as she wished.

The Lannisters got the ultimate mark of approval from the Starks when they gave Sansa in marriage. Crazy Jaime aside, was that approval ever clearly withdrawn? Stuff like 'it's dangerous here', and 'Joffrey is not what we thought' is simply not enough.

Ok, now you're on dangerous ground. She knows what she risks for Dontos:

But she carries on anyway. She is correct in her assessment of Joff; this is what he does a few chapters later :

This is not trivial, this is severe physical abuse.

She has the same looks as Rob, Bran and Rickon. All of whom have different personalities.

Arya is a liar. Ned is a liar. Almost everyone is a liar.

This sums it up well.

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I don't hate Sansa.  I'm curious about her transformation from a naive and narcissistic teenager into someone who survives the perils that surround her.  I'm interested to see how her character develops. 

If I have to hate anyone, it's Ramsey and his ilk. Although, I think it's a safe bet that I'll be mortified by Euron and his creepy brother, Victarion.  Compared to those two, Sansa is a pushover.  The question is what will happen if Ramsey teams up with Euron and gets his hands on Sansa.  I'm horrified by the thought!  I expect to be completely disgusted if Cersei teams up with Euron.

It's all relative.

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20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Reread that again, no it doesn't ever appear that way. Holy shit

Sure, Ned says he's doing Lady an honour by killing her. He honoured Gared the same way. The victim doesn't appreciate the honour, only the travesty of justice.

Ned made the feeblest of efforts to save Lady, then he folded, abandoned her, joined the adult conspiracy, participated to the fullest extent. We know that's how it appeared to Sansa, because of the response he saw on her face:

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They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut.

And no, we can't assume he explained himself later, because we never see him explaining himself to Sansa. And considering that he hasn't even talked to Jon about his parentage, we should probably assume that Ned just clams up on important topics.

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Are you kidding?

Direwolf killed... Mycah killed... Jorey Cassel killed... how much does it take?

Sansa was betrothed to a Baratheon, a betrothal her dad wanted to break.

And quoting examples of warnings is a good start... I'm not sure how much you want, the bar is already soooo lowww. 

Direwolf: the adult conspiracy, as described above.
Jory: Joff's 'wicked uncle, the Kingslayer', the rogue Lannister.
Mycah: I think Sansa is in denial on this one, simply unable to deal with two terrible truths;

  • Joffrey has an evil streak;
  • the person who attacked the Crown Prince was Arya - however good her reasons, that was a major crime, punishable by mutilation. The official line - blame Mycah and forget the rest - solves a lot of problems.

 

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What is dangerous? My opinion?

A person is brave if they stand up in the face of abuse. She does stand up, so denying that she is brave would also be denying that she is abused.

Quote

I didn't say she never suffered, but it's not admirable to be a victim, what's admirable is overcoming the abuse... I don't have to like a character because bad things happen to them,

By the nature of things, victims are often powerless.

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especially when she ended up in Lannister hands because she put herself there by betraying her own father.

Untrue.

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but it's true this might be the most "good" thing she's done so far... it's certainly one of maybe two examples of things in about ten pages of posts to be used as an example....

but it let's be clear, Sansa blurts something out and the Hound bails her out... her excuse is to "avoid punishment". I'm not saying that's bad, what I'm saying is in my opinion it doesn't redeem her. 

Sounds like you need a re-read as much as I do. Sansa blurts out something (i.e. you can't kill Dontos) and the Hound bails her out, saving her from a beating that would make her bleed. Most people would back off at this point to save their own skin, but Sansa risks Joffrey's anger again to save Ser Dontos' life. That was brave - are you denying it?

Quote

Different, but each of them exhibit the Stark traits from time to time (or often). Are there examples for Sansa? It's possible I just missed them

Do that re-read.

Quote

That was the point I was making...

Hey, we agree on something! :)

(That's enough Sansa talk for me, I'm moving on to a new topic.)

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19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sure, Ned says he's doing Lady an honour by killing her. He honoured Gared the same way. The victim doesn't appreciate the honour, only the travesty of justice.

Ned made the feeblest of efforts to save Lady, then he folded, abandoned her, joined the adult conspiracy, participated to the fullest extent. We know that's how it appeared to Sansa, because of the response he saw on her face:

And no, we can't assume he explained himself later, because we never see him explaining himself to Sansa. And considering that he hasn't even talked to Jon about his parentage, we should probably assume that Ned just clams up on important topics.

Direwolf: the adult conspiracy, as described above.
Jory: Joff's 'wicked uncle, the Kingslayer', the rogue Lannister.
Mycah: I think Sansa is in denial on this one, simply unable to deal with two terrible truths;

  • Joffrey has an evil streak;
  • the person who attacked the Crown Prince was Arya - however good her reasons, that was a major crime, punishable by mutilation. The official line - blame Mycah and forget the rest - solves a lot of problems.

 

A person is brave if they stand up in the face of abuse. She does stand up, so denying that she is brave would also be denying that she is abused.

By the nature of things, victims are often powerless, but they don't forfeit your support for that reason.

Untrue.

Sounds like you need a re-read as much as I do. Sansa blurts out something (i.e. you can't kill Dontos) and the Hound bails her out, saving her from a beating that would make her bleed. Most people would back off at this point to save their own skin, but Sansa risks Joffrey's anger again to save Ser Dontos' life. That was brave - are you denying it?

Do that re-read.

Hey, we agree on something! :)

(That's enough Sansa talk for me, I'm moving on to a new topic.)

Ya enough is enough...

I can't take "adult conspiracy" seriously... 

but its worth noting that the attempt to make it seem like I was berating her for being a victim is both intellectually dishonest and frankly insulting.

I said that I don't find being a victim admirable, nothing about not supporting or blaming the victim. Of course abuse of any kind is wrong and my point isn't to trivialize anyone's suffering.

But at the same time it doesn't mean I give her a pass on some pretty horrible behavior and decision making. Nor does it mean I have to like her.

Anyway, happy Friday!

 

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ya enough is enough...

I can't take "adult conspiracy" seriously...

adult united front, majority, whatever you want to call it

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but its worth noting that the attempt to make it seem like I was berating her for being a victim is both intellectually dishonest and frankly insulting.

I said that I don't find being a victim admirable, nothing about not supporting or blaming the victim. Of course abuse of any kind is wrong and my point isn't to trivialize anyone's suffering.

** That was not my intention at all! - to be clear, that's not what I think, and I've deleted the bit about 'support' to keep us out of that particular rabbit hole. I wanted to make the point that very absolute, black and white positions are difficult to defend intellectually. The logic takes you in strange directions. That's what I meant by dangerous ground.

Incidentally, trying to get you to admit Sansa has been brave is harder than getting a confession out of the Mountain. For a moment there I felt in sympathy with Prince Oberyn, and should probably thank you for the insight.

Quote

But at the same time it doesn't mean I give her a pass on some pretty horrible behavior and decision making. Nor does it mean I have to like her.

Anyway, happy Friday!

 

Yeah, she's done a few mean things, and I expect she'll do much worse as all the characters go down the dark side of their arc. We'll see.

Happy Friday!

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The first 3 books for me i just couldn't understand why she still wanted cersei's approval after she ordered her wolf killed. I mean Why? some one explain this to me even if she was a child and naive why would i even dream to want to like someone that just killed my beloved pet. I do find her an interesting character now, but the first book she really got on my nerves. 

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One thought is that after Ned's death, Cercei "pushed the right buttons" to show she cared about Sansa, and that she was a good girl, and was destined for "what she dreamed about" - albeit in a rather abused circumstance.

Joffery was the bad cop and Cercei the good cop, and Sansa needed some support. Not to mention some, no doubt, guilt, that Sansa had for the circumstances leading to Lady's death...

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On 11/27/2017 at 4:55 PM, Pikachu101 said:

Read the Alayne chapter in TWOW, Sansa’s awesome! 

I haven't read a single winds chapter. I plan to read them once the book is finally released. Of course, I haven't been able to avoid spoilers, but I try to selectively forget them as much as I can :)

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On 12/2/2017 at 9:49 PM, Wild Bill said:

One thought is that after Ned's death, Cercei "pushed the right buttons" to show she cared about Sansa, and that she was a good girl, and was destined for "what she dreamed about" - albeit in a rather abused circumstance.

Joffery was the bad cop and Cercei the good cop, and Sansa needed some support. Not to mention some, no doubt, guilt, that Sansa had for the circumstances leading to Lady's death...

Yeah, Sansa was alone in KL and Cersei used that to her advantage. Also, Sansa (wrongly) blamed Arya for Lady's death.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I haven't read a single winds chapter. I plan to read them once the book is finally released. Of course, I haven't been able to avoid spoilers, but I try to selectively forget them as much as I can :)

fair enough, wish I had you patience though :P

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