red snow Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Olenna said: I had heard the rumors about Carl but thought no way, he has so much more to do. The actor really grew on me through the seasons and I’m sad to see him go. I stopped reading the comics at the introduction of the whisperers. I just couldn’t handle another “war” and just gave up. I’ve seen that it’s worth the read - is it?  The Whisperer material was the best the comic has been in a long while. Still not sure such a culture could arise within a few years but I guess apocalypse's can create sudden changes. The problem is that the whisperer story has been put on the back-burner/fizzled out - at least from what I can gather from the last two graphic novels. 1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said: There doesn't seem to be any confirmation that Riggs was fired. Obviously Carl will be around for at least part of the second half of the season Given the way this show can make a "day's worth" of time in show last 6 episodes Carl could remain on the show for a couple of seasons. Look how long they dragged out Glenn's "death" a few seasons ago. Next episode could be following another storyline/side character. Then another, then drop in on Carl who's looking a bit grey. Followed by 3 episodes about what was happening during that time from the POV of Morgan's stick, henchman number 6 etc. They could easily string out his death until the end of the season. And then there's still the possibility it's all a fake out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 On 12/10/2017 at 1:38 PM, Martini Sigil said: We just got back from the "Walker Stalker" con in NJ.... I'll tell ya, if the show losing its popularity, you couldn;t tell by the amount of people there... the place was mobbed... But as far as who dies in the mid-season finale...  Hide contents  Hide contents Chandler Riggs cut off all of his hair.... so my money is on Carl kicking the bucket   I missed this earlier. I bet that it felt damned good to be rid of all that mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Sigil Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, Lady Olenna said: I missed this earlier. I bet that it felt damned good to be rid of all that mess. Ha!.... Lying Cat avatar = awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 6 hours ago, red snow said: I think it was only today that I realised I was done with this show. I tried watching the first 3 episodes and it just fell off my "to watch list". Not in a "this is so shit I can't face it" just a "I'm no longer invested in the show". That was cemented when I found myself happily reading spoilers for the traditional "mid/season finale death" and I didn't care when the show's second longest serving character appears to be dead. And it's pretty much for some of the reasons mentioned here, it's lazy to do deaths as events every 7 episodes as a way of justifying not much happening in between. But far worse is the fact that many of us don't even trust death in the show anymore - thanks to all the fake-outs they've used before this. I'm not sure what the show can do when we have so little faith in their storytelling tricks. While I can't rule out it all being BS it seems from the interview with Chandler Riggs that the guy wants to study a degree. So while they may make it out to be "brave" storytelling it could be like what happens with many of the other character deaths in the show - an actor gets a gig elsewhere and so they kill them off. In the latest interview Riggs now says he is taking a gap year rather than going to college...Again, nice ploy to make it easier to slot back into the Show after his non-death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I kind of love all the skepticism here on whether Carl will actually die, but I have to disagree. As I said, Gimple was as explicit as he'll get when talking about it last night, and Riggs has been even more explicit: Quote "Yes, Carl is going to die," Riggs tells The Hollywood Reporter in an exclusive interview. "There's no way he can get back from that. His story is definitely coming to an end." I get that after the Glenn bullshit Gimple has earned the skepticism, but I think that's why they're being as clear as they are here - they recognize that pissed off a lot of of their viewers. Moreover, it makes sense in the "narrative" of this season. We saw in the premiere Carl try to befriend Siddiq (which was revisited in the midseason finale) and the teary-eyed Rick repeating the Quran quote Siddiq tells Carl. I strongly suspect this is Rick choosing to spare Negan - motivated by Carl imploring him to have more hope and mercy which has been emphasized in almost all his scenes this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 hour ago, dmc515 said: I kind of love all the skepticism here on whether Carl will actually die, but I have to disagree. As I said, Gimple was as explicit as he'll get when talking about it last night, and Riggs has been even more explicit: I get that after the Glenn bullshit Gimple has earned the skepticism, but I think that's why they're being as clear as they are here - they recognize that pissed off a lot of of their viewers. Moreover, it makes sense in the "narrative" of this season. We saw in the premiere Carl try to befriend Siddiq (which was revisited in the midseason finale) and the teary-eyed Rick repeating the Quran quote Siddiq tells Carl. I strongly suspect this is Rick choosing to spare Negan - motivated by Carl imploring him to have more hope and mercy which has been emphasized in almost all his scenes this season. But it doesn't even make sense, if that is what they are aiming for. Rick was proven right. It was BECAUSE Carl helped Siddiq that he died. So this should only strengthen Rick's resolve as far as safety first is concerned. Rick was proven right and Carl was proven wrong. The writers can't even do this properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Went to AMC to watch the last two episodes, but accidentally closed my tab while attempting to silence a commercial. Unfortunately I could not be bothered to reopen said tab and was forced to move on with my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: The writers can't even do this properly. Well, I really don't want to be in a position of defending the writers, but I think what Gimple would say is you're looking at it from a perspective that relies far too much on logic and far too little on humanity. Retaining the latter in the vision for the future is kind of the whole point - as it's the point of Rick sparing Negan in the comics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 2 hours ago, dmc515 said: Well, I really don't want to be in a position of defending the writers, but I think what Gimple would say is you're looking at it from a perspective that relies far too much on logic and far too little on humanity. Retaining the latter in the vision for the future is kind of the whole point - as it's the point of Rick sparing Negan in the comics. Does Rick ever break Negan in the comics? As in, does Negan realize the magnitude of his sins and weep at Rick's feet for forgiveness? Or does he continue to taunt Rick from his cage, all through the comics? Because the latter would be immensely unsatisfying, I must be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Because the latter would be immensely unsatisfying, I must be honest. No, certainly not the latter. While I wouldn't say Rick "breaks" Negan, the latter goes to great lengths to earn Rick's respect/acceptance only for Rick to eventually banish him. In the most recent issue, Maggie basically "broke" Negan though, or at least he begged her to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, dmc515 said: No, certainly not the latter. While I wouldn't say Rick "breaks" Negan, the latter goes to great lengths to earn Rick's respect/acceptance only for Rick to eventually banish him. In the most recent issue, Maggie basically "broke" Negan though, or at least he begged her to kill him. Is the Negan we see in the Show fairly similar to the Negan in the comics? Because I must be honest, anything less than a Damascus type of "rebirth" experience makes it extremely unrealistic to imagine how the obvious psychopath Negan can gradually and genuinely transform into a better person. It would appear highly contrived for such a transformation to happen, short of him having some type of near death experience, seeing a bright light and essentially having a 180 degree personality change, becoming some type of monk or something. Negan just sorting of mellowing out by virtue of Rick's "good influence" seems utterly unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 41 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:  It would appear highly contrived for such a transformation to happen, short of him having some type of near death experience, seeing a bright light and essentially having a 180 degree personality change, becoming some type of monk or something. Negan just sorting of mellowing out by virtue of Rick's "good influence" seems utterly unrealistic. You mean his jail time should not work as jailtime is intended across the world? You are right, very unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Everyone knows prisoners come out reformed and better than new, lol. I would imagine Lincoln, as seriously as he takes this role, must be struggling with how Rick proceeds if Carl in fact dies. I kind of think it hits michonne just as hard. I guess if I hadn’t read the comics and spoilers and didn’t know how big of a role Carl played from here, I could kind of understand Carl dying. But honestly, I didn’t see much logic or point to him and Siddiq walking through the woods on a mission to kill walkers and “set them free” - like what? That’s your bonding moment? I completely missed what happened to the heapsters. Did they just leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Is the Negan we see in the Show fairly similar to the Negan in the comics? That obviously depends on everyone's individual interpretation. My take is show Negan is much more of a dick and much more ruthless. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's anything like the Show Oceanside backstory of the Saviors killing all the men of a group they subjugated. Another important departure is in the All Out War comic storyline Negan refuses to kill Rick throughout - he wants to keep him alive at all costs because his aim is to get him (and subsequently Alexandria) under his thumb. As for the rest, there isn't really a 180 change or even "redemption" for Negan. Rick still rejects him even after Negan saves his life (and does him a big solid by killing the leader of the whisperers), and Maggie in the last issue leaves him exiled alone with his regret. Basically, the change in Negan post-All Out War is he wants to prove he can be a positive contributor to society, is rejected and exiled, then wants Maggie to kill him due to his guilt, but is again rejected and remains exiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Lady Olenna said: I kind of think it hits michonne just as hard. I almost think it'll hit her harder. And at least they've kept Judith alive to give Rick an anchor. 2 minutes ago, Lady Olenna said: I completely missed what happened to the heapsters. Did they just leave? Yep. Their inclusion continues to be completely pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isis Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Olenna said: I completely missed what happened to the heapsters. Did they just leave? Yeah, I wondered about that. Rick spends so much time trying to win them over and then just dumps them in the heat of the moment and that's it? My first thought was that Carl's 'bite' looked more like the kind of wound you get from hard impact with a pole. But I suppose it's ambiguous. Anyway, I liked the final scene in the tunnel. Everyone looks super bleak and they're exuding these 'fuck you, Rick' vibes, like nobody even gives a fuck that he's back again. Urgh. I guess I'd better go back and pick up with the GNs. I read book 12 but then realised afterwards that I'd missed out book 11. So I guess I should get book 11, re-read 12 and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 That's not how they transform began in the comics. It's never about whether Rick is a better person morally, it's about who can run the most effective post apocalyptic society. Negan thought his way was the best but was proven wrong. Now he realises ricks way is more effective and do supports that. But he is still very much an utter bastard just with a better direction eg upholding Rick's rule. But I agree it makes no sense other than plot armour that he was never summarily executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, red snow said: That's not how they transform began in the comics. It's never about whether Rick is a better person morally, it's about who can run the most effective post apocalyptic society. Negan thought his way was the best but was proven wrong. Now he realises ricks way is more effective and do supports that. But he is still very much an utter bastard just with a better direction eg upholding Rick's rule. But I agree it makes no sense other than plot armour that he was never summarily executed. Yeah. Like why does that random Savior prisoner Maggie shot in the last episode deserve to die, but Negan deserves to live? There is no way Negan lives in a realistic setting in such a world. His supporters, sure, that shows mercy and humanity. Negan? It just makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I do have to admit that a post-post-apocalyptic society wherein a reformed Neegan works for Preisdent Qwarrll Grimes keeping the peace in the New Virginia (?) Republic would make for an excellent show. That'd be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grozeng Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 So does it look now like Carl was bit in the woods with that guy last episode and the whole "kill me" thing to Negan was because he was bit already and if Negan actually did it, he was dead anyway and it would buy some more time. I think the "I carried him here" comment kind of leads to this but the editing is so choppy I could be totally wrong. Anyone else get that sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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