Golden Stags and Silver Wolves

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Um:

“King Robert.” She put a silver stag on the barrel between them. Robert’s head was on one side, the stag on the other.
 

Nice find.

I think this might be a hint that Brienne is still on Team Renly (= young Robert) even though she is nominally on a quest for Catelyn / Jaime. Or maybe the careful wording about the head of Robert being on the opposite side from the stag is the signal that the two are separate for Brienne - she is with the stag (Renly) but not with the recently-deceased king. It could also foreshadow her upcoming encounter with Gendry, who helps her with Rorge and Biter. 

It could also be a Faceless Man allusion, though. She is telling the man that "King Robert" wants to find the fool who may be traveling with her "sister," a maid of three and ten, using the face of a dead man to further her mission. Like a Faceless Man in disguise, the coin allows her to use Robert's face to continue (she believes) to obscure her real purpose and identity. When she reaches the place where she thought she would find Sansa and Ser Dontos, she instead finds people from Arya's arc: Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg. (I realize she and Jaime also encountered the Brave Companions at an earlier stage.) At one point, Arya had considered adding Shagwell to her prayer list.

There is something complicated about the coin on the barrel. I suspect that barrels are symbolic eggs and that things "hatch" out of them. The first barrel in the books was delivered to Castle Black for a feast and filled with crabs packed in snow. So the barrel here might just mean that Brienne is meeting Dick Crabb, and barrels and crabs go together. But it might be something about a rebirth for Robert. @GloubieBoulga believes that Rorge and Biter symbolize Robert and Ned, so Brienne on the trail of some of their Brave Companion company could be part of that symbolism.

But she does use a lot of coins throughout her journey and takes care to protect her bag of coins. She gallantly leaves two gold dragon coins in the grave of Dick Crabb. I'll have to take a closer look at her use of coins. Thanks for spotting this.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

Perhaps...

But grrm's seeming indifference to economics makes me think that he didn't think of it all.

Not that it matters...

I mean, based on the winnings from the Tourney of the Hand, I have to agree

[GloubieBoulga]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

But she does use a lot of coins throughout her journey and takes care to protect her bag of coins. She gallantly leaves two gold dragon coins in the grave of Dick Crabb. I'll have to take a closer look at her use of coins.

long time ago, I used to read the scene at the Whispers like a kind of "replay" of Harrenhal's tourney (with Dick Crabb playing Howland Reed's part) and the 2 dragons symbolising Rhaegar and Aerys, as if Brienne was trailing Lyanna instead Sansa or Arya (that's not the only way to read the scene). But I didn't read Brienne's chapters for a while, and maybe, I would change a part of the perspective now. For exemple, when you write : 

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

She is telling the man that "King Robert" wants to find the fool who may be traveling with her "sister," a maid of three and ten, using the face of a dead man to further her mission

 that implies that Shagwell is an avatar for Rhaegar (he is a kind of singer, has a weapon with 3 heads, like "3 heads of the dragon"), and finally, could Brienne also replay Ned at the Tower of Joy ? Could Shagwell also play Arthur Dayne's part (= his weapon is a morningstar, after all)

[Universal Sword Donor]

42 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

long time ago, I used to read the scene at the Whispers like a kind of "replay" of Harrenhal's tourney (with Dick Crabb playing Howland Reed's part) and the 2 dragons symbolising Rhaegar and Aerys, as if Brienne was trailing Lyanna instead Sansa or Arya (that's not the only way to read the scene). But I didn't read Brienne's chapters for a while, and maybe, I would change a part of the perspective now. For exemple, when you write : 

 

 that implies that Shagwell is an avatar for Rhaegar (he is a kind of singer, has a weapon with 3 heads, like "3 heads of the dragon"), and finally, could Brienne also replay Ned at the Tower of Joy ? Could Shagwell also play Arthur Dayne's part (= his weapon is a morningstar, after all)

I don't think the parallels are very strong, and the contradictory evidence piles over the top of it.

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

Perhaps...

But grrm's seeming indifference to economics makes me think that he didn't think of it all.

Not that it matters...

Clearly he intentionally put Robert on the silver stag and Targaryens on the golden dragons, so back to the drawing board you go.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Clearly he intentionally put Robert on the silver stag and Targaryens on the golden dragons, so back to the drawing board you go.

We have no idea who is currently on the golden dragons, so back to the assumption board you should not go

[Seams]

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We have no idea who is currently on the golden dragons, so back to the assumption board you should not go

This is early in Joffrey's reign, but implies that gold dragons were associated with Targaryens throughout and after Robert's tenure:

"Viserys. The last son of Mad King Aerys. He's been going about the Free Cities since before I was born, calling himself a king. Well, Mother says the Dothraki finally crowned him. With molten gold." He laughed. "That's funny, don't you think? The dragon was their sigil. It's almost as good as if some wolf killed your traitor brother. Maybe I'll feed him to wolves after I've caught him. . . . " (ACoK, Sansa I)

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

This is early in Joffrey's reign, but implies that gold dragons were associated with Targaryens throughout and after Robert's tenure:

"Viserys. The last son of Mad King Aerys. He's been going about the Free Cities since before I was born, calling himself a king. Well, Mother says the Dothraki finally crowned him. With molten gold." He laughed. "That's funny, don't you think? The dragon was their sigil. It's almost as good as if some wolf killed your traitor brother. Maybe I'll feed him to wolves after I've caught him. . . . " (ACoK, Sansa I)

It can imply whatever it wants. We have 100% no indication of what actually is on them. More to the point, in semi-canon books like D & E or memorabilia, each king mints their own coins with their own faces. Daemon I did it with his coins, Robert does in canon with his silver stag, and there are IRL replicas of his copper stars with his face on them. Aerys II has some as well.

 

[1000th Lord Commander]

9 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Clearly he intentionally put Robert on the silver stag and Targaryens on the golden dragons, so back to the drawing board you go.

As King, Robert's head would have been on ALL coins, except those minted during the reigns of his predessesors. The dragons, stags and stars is a reference to the value of the coin, though there was probably a symbol representing these on the reverse of the coins. The obverse on all coins minted during Robert's reign would have been Robert's head

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

19 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

I actually wondered, when I first read the books, why the silver coins were stags, tbh. And when was the coinage impelemented? Aegon I? Jaehaerys I? The golden dragons make sense, was the Hand of the King at the time a Baratheon?

I imagine redoing the coinage would have put a lot of people offside. And Robert was trying to prove continuity with the Targs

For sure silver stags existed in Daeron II's rain, as they are around in the Dunk and Egg books. I would venture a guess they were minted alongside dragons when the Targaryen reign began. I do believe Orys Baratheon was Aegon I's hand for awhile. He was also the only original supporter of the Targaryen's to become a Lord Paramount. 

I have enjoyed the discussion. Many ideas are interesting to me that you guys have pur forward. I have not yet decided which theory seems the most plausible to me. If Robert didn't print his head on the back of a dragon that would shock me. My only point was he should have printed a stag on the other side. I still stick with that concept. I think reminting is unrealistic, but when new coins are made, just switch the backside. As far as someone saying they shouldn't have been silver wolves for the silver coin. Maybe you are right. Robert did seen to let the Lannisters do whatever they wanted. I will never understand how they got so much power, when they did very little for the war effort. Tullys and Starks should have already been offered council positions, or at least other loyalists. Sorry, this is all off topic, but I always thought to much respect was payed to the Lannisters. Way too much. 

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

As King, Robert's head would have been on ALL coins, except those minted during the reigns of his predessesors. The dragons, stags and stars is a reference to the value of the coin, though there was probably a symbol representing these on the reverse of the coins. The obverse on all coins minted during Robert's reign would have been Robert's head

We only have proof of Robert's face on silver stags. We don't know that he minted or overstruck any other coinage. There is no proof of golden dragons with Robert on them. That doesn't mean there weren't, but for now we have no proof that he made or overstruck golden dragons with his face.

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

We only have proof of Robert's face on silver stags. We don't know that he minted or overstruck any other coinage. There is no proof of golden dragons with Robert on them. That doesn't mean there weren't, but for now we have no proof that he made or overstruck golden dragons with his face.

But we do know other kings do it, so if we assume anything it leans toward his face being on the gold dragons, as well as every other coin.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

53 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

But we do know other kings do it, so if we assume anything it leans toward his face being on the gold dragons, as well as every other coin.

 

There is no basis to say Robert minted or overstruck golden dragons with his face, no matter how you spin it. Westeros isn't Rome, and we don't have the actual details.

[Universal Sword Donor]

31 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is no basis to say Robert minted or overstruck golden dragons with his face, no matter how you spin it. Westeros isn't Rome, and we don't have the actual details.

There is because he put his face on his own coins and each successive IT king did it. It's not definitive, but if you lean either way it's not "THERE IS NOT PROOF OR PRECEDENT" whilst stomping your feet and holding your breath. "We" have canon proof of the stag with his face, semi-canon and canon proof of kings minting their own coinage, and authorized merchandise of a different coin with Robert's face on it. You have supposition and lack of evidence.

We literally cannot confirm it yet but to pretend Robert is going to continue minting Aerys II coins -- or honestly whatever the hell you're insinuating -- seems a bit daft.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

37 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There is because he put his face on his own coins and each successive IT king did it. It's not definitive, but if you lean either way it's not "THERE IS NOT PROOF OR PRECEDENT" whilst stomping your feet and holding your breath. "We" have canon proof of the stag with his face, semi-canon and canon proof of kings minting their own coinage, and authorized merchandise of a different coin with Robert's face on it. You have supposition and lack of evidence.

We literally cannot confirm it yet but to pretend Robert is going to continue minting Aerys II coins -- or honestly whatever the hell you're insinuating -- seems a bit daft.

 

What is daft is assuming that Robert minted or overstruck his own golden dragons when there isn't even a single hint that he ever did so. We know he minted or overstruck silver stags with his face. The suggestion that Robert minted or overstruck his face on golden dragons has no legs to stand on. What other, Targaryen, kings did tells us nothing about what Robert did. You are just making baseless assumptions.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What is daft is assuming that Robert minted or overstruck his own golden dragons when there isn't even a single hint that he ever did so. We know he minted or overstruck silver stags with his face. The suggestion that Robert minted or overstruck his face on golden dragons has no legs to stand on. What other, Targaryen, kings did tells us nothing about what Robert did. You are just making baseless assumptions.

No. You keep saying baseless. But it's part of an overarching pattern I've explained several times. Lack of evidence is not evidence, and even so I'm agreeing it's not definitive.

[Tom Cruise]

I feel like GRRM has done a good job of showing us that Robert really couldn't give a shit about such things.  The fact that he had his head on some of the silver stags probably was just a result of whoever was minting new coins putting the current kings bust on one side.  Robert couldn't care less about counting coppers, stags or even dragons for that matter.

Plus, there's tonnes of symbolism that goes along with the dragons and stags and coins and blah blah blah that just wouldn't make sense if there was a big change.